Why Islam makes more sense conceptually of all the Abrahamic faiths

[Nakosis]

Considering only men put together the holy texts of all abrahamic religions, it just makes you wonder if this is where the oppression came from, and they use God as the scapegoat.

Women were at the time seen as property.

Sadly though, the marginalization of women has been going on for a long time. Some 2,000 years ago, a Hebrew sage named Ben Sira wrote “the birth of a daughter is a loss” and “better is the wickedness of a man than a woman who does good.” Modern readers rightly label such words misogynistic. But they’re part of the historical record and Ben Sira wasn’t alone. From Mesopotamia to Egypt, women in the ancient world were considered property — valuable property, but property nonetheless. And it’s true of the Bible’s view as well. Yes, there were biblical women who flourished in spite of the patriarchy, women like Ruth, Esther, Lydia and Priscilla. But women in the Bible were normally viewed as second class, if even that.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/chri...lue-we-dont-like-to-talk-about_b_1833648.html

 

[Tumah]

. . . and your claim of the stance of Judaism is highly abstract and conceptual like that of @Epic Beard Man DOES NOT reflect the reality of Judaism and its claims as the 'chosen people,'.and as you stated earlier:



These polite 'conceptual' claims reminds me of the Roman Church, and the Vatican II concerning ecumenism and those out side the church. Polite encouraging statemnts are followed by clear and specific statements 'my way or the highway to . . .'

It took me a really long time to figure out what you are talking about. Not the least because of a line you quoted me saying that I had not said (nor from the phraseology would have said), but also because I had to derive it from the second half of your response. If I get you right, you are saying that the stance I have stated as being Jewish is not reflective of reality because (and here's the part I'm not sure about) Judaism doesn't accept others' god-concepts or theologies as being true.
If I have gotten you right, then I think you are mixing apples and oranges. It is not necessary for someone to accept the Jewish G-d as G-d in order for the Jewish G-d to be the G-d of that person, just as it isn't necessary for someone who resides in kingdom X to be a subject of the resident king, regardless of whether he accepts that king's reign. The fact that Judaism acknowledges that G-d is also the G-d of the non-Jews is actualized in the existence of the Noahide Laws.
We do believe - as apparently you've quoted, does the Roman Church in their own way - that there is a G-d who gave specific codes of Laws for Jews and Gentiles. But that has no bearing on the points that I had raised.

 

[Spiderman]

Why would anyone want to worship a god who expects such things?

There are a lot more psychopaths out there than we would like to believe.

Also, sometimes even good people can start believing enemies of God deserve the worst tortures, or that blasphemy, Idolatry, or an unveiled woman is a worse crime than murder!

 

[Sir Doom]

Why would anyone want to worship a god who expects such things?

To check a self aggrandizing box.

 

[Deidre]

To check a self aggrandizing box.

That could be :/

 

[Deidre]

There are a lot more psychopaths out there than we would like to believe.

Also, sometimes even good people can start believing enemies of God deserve the worst tortures, or that blasphemy, Idolatry, or an unveiled woman is a worse crime than murder!

Could it be cultural though? American Muslims aren’t remotely like this.

 

[David1967]

this is not to devalue Judaism or Christianity considering both have important roots from within Islam.

Just want to clarify this. Not sure what you are saying. Judaism (in my understanding) being the oldest of the three would be more the "root" of both Christianity and later Islam.

 

[David1967]

You are hinting on the common problem with ancient belief systems like Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The history of Christianity also justifies glorifies equally horrific vicious sadistic attitudes toward those who believe differently in history.

This is sort of problematic of the belief system you have.

Forgive my ignorance. Has there ever in the history of the Baha'i faith been a time when some misguided members inflicted violence on others because of differences in faiths?

 

[Spiderman]

Could it be cultural though? American Muslims aren’t remotely like this.

Depends... I lived with a humble, kind, peaceful Muslim. We praised Allah together and he gave me his kufi.

He also supported the destruction of Pagan Idols and cutting off a child's hand for stealing an apple.

I prayed with peaceful likeable Muslims in New York mosque who defended cutting off hands and heads in Saudi-Arabia, and not letting women drive.

These were peaceful, law-abiding, humble, likeable, westernized Muslims!

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I don't know of any Christian countries that do that to women in the 21st century

You don't know of any? The US likes to deride the hijab while outright stating multiple times that women deserve "what they get" if they wear anything that remotely shows skin.

Mutilating and disfiguring people is promoted in the Qur'an, which explains why it is seen more in 21st century Islam as opposed to 21st century Christianity.

The bible does too, though. A LOT.

This isn't just a woman thing, either. Cutting off one's foreskin is a mutilation. Piercing ears just to show ownership of a person is mutilation. I mean, I get they're ancient and all, but identity can be addressed with a nice pocket-sized card.

I love and respect such non-violent figures.

Non-violent people don't assault others with whips. They don't relish the thought of people dying cruelly and burning forever.

From Mesopotamia to Egypt, women in the ancient world were considered property

Women in Egypt could own property, get inheritances, sue, get jobs, etc. Hebrews ditch the scene to create a land where they got none of that. No wonder they were so irritable.

 

[Revoltingest]

You don't know of any? The US likes to deride the hijab while outright stating multiple times that women deserve "what they get" if they wear anything that remotely shows skin.

Is this something a significant number of people say?
I hear it claimed a lot, but the evidence offered is misinference of something else said.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Yeah...

I'll face mecca and praise Allah with any Muslim. I'm fine with much of their Religion.

Thing is, I saw how mutilating and torturing people was promoted in the Qur'an and it made my blood boil. See, I don't care if Muslims take me out and shoot me to death, or cut off my head quickly.

What really bothers me though, is the idea of getting my hands, feet, or other body parts cut off, or other tortures, and the Koran glorifies torturing and mutilating people. Also, I'd rather be dead than be a woman in any Muslim-majority country. Some things are worse than death!

When I saw those tortures and disfigurements in the Koran, and saw examples of Muslims mutilating, torturing, and gang-raping non-Muslims large-scale in the 21st century, I just had it with Islam!!!, and felt like standing up to Islam is just as noble as standing up to hate groups like KKK or Nazis!

Like many things Islam went off the trail shortly after The Prophet Muhammad died. Have you read those passages? I think there are "qualifiers" in his statements about killing the enemy.

In the OT, After the death of Moses, Joshua went about wiping out certain peoples, even to their farm animals, taking no prisoners. The qualifier in this instance is that I have been told that the people he wiped out were into Idol worship and eating their own children. Ick!

Not defending anyone's actions here.

Back to Muhammad PBUH, I was taught that he wrote The Constitution of Medina, where among other things, he gave women rights. And, I actually think that Omar murdered him. In the tent where Muhammad taught, it was circular and the men and women were in the same tent, men on one side and women on the other.

Of course, I have heard many Christian talks about the grave sins of Muhammad. I was not surprised. Christian hatred, defying the very words of Jesus the Christ, is the main reason I left Christianity.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Special case of the Strawman fallacy: mischaracterize someone elses religion in order to create a comparison in which yours appears more sensible. I will show you a different strawman.

Truly though I see Islam as holding a very similar form of worship to contemporary Christians believing in the transferral of sins through blood to the cross. Muslims believe in seeking forgiveness from God as do those who believe Adam and Eve fell when they ate some fruit from a tree. How is that more sensible than believing people can forgive sins? Is it not the people wronged who must forgive? You see the Muslim here does the same and so is the same A man cannot harm God. God cannot be harmed. What need does God have to forgive? Does the Muslim not believe in substitutional atonement like the contemporary Christian? They must for harm to a brother requires forgiveness from God they say. It seems no different from someone who believes sins are wondrously transferred backward in time and placed into a body upon a cross. That they do not agree with resurrection seems trivial compared with that strong equalizing characteristic, but one which is I think unfortunate. Akso Muslims seem in thrall to imams as Christians are to preachers. What difference is there? There is little, so a strawman must be constructed stressing quibbles about abstractions. Each claims the other is idolatrous.

 

[Spiderman]

You don't know of any? The US likes to deride the hijab while outright stating multiple times that women deserve "what they get" if they wear anything that remotely shows skin.


The bible does too, though. A LOT.

This isn't just a woman thing, either. Cutting off one's foreskin is a mutilation. Piercing ears just to show ownership of a person is mutilation. I mean, I get they're ancient and all, but identity can be addressed with a nice pocket-sized card.


Non-violent people don't assault others with whips. They don't relish the thought of people dying cruelly and burning forever.


Women in Egypt could own property, get inheritances, sue, get jobs, etc. Hebrews ditch the scene to create a land where they got none of that. No wonder they were so irritable.

Oh, I know of all kinds of psychopathic stuff in the Bible, and it p*sses me off thoroughly!

Also, when Christians start saying non-Christians, suicides, and practicing homosexuals, are going to be tortured for eternity, that to me is more disgusting than anything ISIS or Taliban have done.

Sure, I don't like it when they cut off hands, feet, crucify people, or cut off noses, ears, lips, burn people etc. but at least those people get to die or commit suicide, and their misery is over. Some Christians preach that God is a lot more cruel than ISIS, so it drives me nuts to hear it!

So, trust me, I can't stand Christian views that are embraced by many Christians. However, there are Christians like myself who will not defend psychopathic Scripture verses.

I've never met a Muslim who will explain the psychopathic behavior of Muhammad and Qur'an for what it is, sadistic psychopathic behavior and talk!

The reason, as a whole, I don't see Christianity as much of a threat as Islam, is I don't see Christian regimes legally committing the same crimes against non-Christians in any of the first-world Countries that have a Christian majority.

I've heard of such atrocities being committed by Christians in impoverished, uneducated, developing countries in Africa.

However, it is far more common in the Islamic world, at least in the 21st century.

Also, Jesus driving people out with a whip is quite mild. I haven't been whipped, but I've been punched and stabbed with pencils and prison shanks. It's not that bad, and I doubt getting hit with a whip is much worse.

Jesus didn't recruit an army to fight for him, so has a lot more in common with Martin Luther King than he does with Muhammad. Muhammad has more in common with figures like Osama Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein!

 

[Spiderman]

Like many things Islam went off the trail shortly after The Prophet Muhammad died. Have you read those passages? I think there are "qualifiers" in his statements about killing the enemy.

In the OT, After the death of Moses, Joshua went about wiping out certain peoples, even to their farm animals, taking no prisoners. The qualifier in this instance is that I have been told that the people he wiped out were into Idol worship and eating their own children. Ick!

Not defending anyone's actions here.

Back to Muhammad PBUH, I was taught that he wrote The Constitution of Medina, where among other things, he gave women rights. And, I actually think that Omar murdered him. In the tent where Muhammad taught, it was circular and the men and women were in the same tent, men on one side and women on the other.

Of course, I have heard many Christian talks about the grave sins of Muhammad. I was not surprised. Christian hatred, defying the very words of Jesus the Christ, is the main reason I left Christianity.

There comes a time where hatred is okay.

I love Muslims, including Muhammad, and hope he got to Heaven and I meet him some day, but I hate some of the behaviors I see in Muslim-majority countries, and really hate the psychopathic verses in the Qur'an.

By the way, I think the psychopathic verses in the Bible are just as disgusting.

We should renounce psychopathic behavior, genocide, hateful bigotry, and mass-killings in the Bible, Qur'an, and anywhere! I see it practiced more in the Islamic world in the 21st century than the first-world 21st century Christian countries!

 

[Marsh]

That is far from true!

The Qur'an says some words of peace, but also many calls to violence as well as sadistic tortures, crucifixions, mutilation, burnings, and hacking off the hands and feet of infidels....
Groups like ISIS are in many ways following the Koran and the example of Muhammad, and this is proven in the Qur'an and lifestyle of the Prophet!

I accept your summation Pope, and I believe everything you describe is accurate. In my estimation Islam, as practiced by the majority Muslim sects, is the most dangerous religion on Earth and is not compatible with Western culture. Historically Islam has demonstrated that it never plays friendly with any religious group it encounters.

 

[Spiderman]

Like many things Islam went off the trail shortly after The Prophet Muhammad died. Have you read those passages? I think there are "qualifiers" in his statements about killing the enemy.

In the OT, After the death of Moses, Joshua went about wiping out certain peoples, even to their farm animals, taking no prisoners. The qualifier in this instance is that I have been told that the people he wiped out were into Idol worship and eating their own children. Ick!

Not defending anyone's actions here.

Back to Muhammad PBUH, I was taught that he wrote The Constitution of Medina, where among other things, he gave women rights. And, I actually think that Omar murdered him. In the tent where Muhammad taught, it was circular and the men and women were in the same tent, men on one side and women on the other.

Of course, I have heard many Christian talks about the grave sins of Muhammad. I was not surprised. Christian hatred, defying the very words of Jesus the Christ, is the main reason I left Christianity.

What was it that attracted you to Islam?

What p*sses me off isn't that Muhammad killed a bunch of people.

I'm well aware, that to stop the Nazis, the Allis had to kill millions of Germans and Italians. It was a necessary evil!

However, killing people to bring down a wicked regime is one thing. Crucifying them, burning them, cutting off hands and feet, and other vicious, barbaric tortures are described in the Qur'an.

I don't care who a person's enemy is! I don't care if it's Osama Bin Laden, Jeffry Dahmer, Ted Bundy, ISIS terrorists, or anyone, you don't cut off anyone's hands and feet, burn them, mutilate, or crucify them under any circumstances!

Put me before a firing squad, put me in a gas chamber, cut off my head, but none of that other cruel sh*t that the Qur'an describes!

 

[Glaurung]

That's because the Jews are Jehovah's chosen people. It's their religion, their god, and yet it was appropriated, hacked up, and crudely put back together to fit Christianity, Islam, and Bahai. Those three are basically saying that the Jews get their own religion wrong.

Except that Rabbinic Judaism does not predate Christianity. Christianity arose as a Jewish movement, contemporaneous (if not slightly predating) what would become Rabbinic Judaism. The idea that the dominant form of Judaism that exists today has some intrinsic, exclusive right to the proper use and interpretation of the Hebrew Scriptures (to which all must defer because... reasons) is pure anti-Christian question begging.

Christians didn't hijack "their" religion. Rabbinic Judaism and Christianity were independent movements. Apart from some common scripture, Christianity takes very little (if anything) from what we today call Judaism.

 

[Spiderman]

I accept your summation Pope, and I believe everything you describe is accurate. In my estimation Islam, as practiced by the majority Muslim sects, is the most dangerous religion on Earth and is not compatible with Western culture. Historically Islam has demonstrated that it never plays friendly with any religious group it encounters.

Direct quote from Koran:

"The recompense of those who fight Allah and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is their disgrace in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great torment." (Qur'an 5:33)

If you have to kill someone to bring down a wicked regime, kill them! But torturing people in a way that is vicious or psychopathic, that will leave them disfigured or disabled for life, is not okay under any circumstances!

 

[Ellen Brown]

I accept your summation Pope, and I believe everything you describe is accurate. In my estimation Islam, as practiced by the majority Muslim sects, is the most dangerous religion on Earth and is not compatible with Western culture. Historically Islam has demonstrated that it never plays friendly with any religious group it encounters.

Actually the Wahabbi and the Salafi Muslims have violent elements but I do not agree that most Muslims are hateful. "Conceptually", Islamic ideas please me, but some take it too far, making it excusable to call people Infidel, or Kafir. I find their solution to the question about Jesus Christ to be really questionable. They see him as the best Prophet, and sent by Allah SWT, but not his Son.

That's the reason why today I think of myself as an Abrahamic Religionist. Islam has some areas that do not get a pass, but so does the rather extreme Evangelical Christianity that I came from. They regularly violated the spirit of what Jesus Christ said and did. It feels really odd, because in some areas, Islam copies Judaism.