Why Islam makes more sense conceptually of all the Abrahamic faiths

[Ellen Brown]

Ellen,
I doubt you like flattery!

But you sound like the most awesome Muslim EVER!!!



Okay, i know you aren't describing yourself as Muslim, but you seem quite infatuated with Muhammad (peace be upon him), and quite Muslim in many ways.

How can you still approve of psychopathic, graphic tortures and disfigurements in the Qur'an??

If Muhammad was such a great guy, or prophet of God, why did he describe graphic tortures, mutilation, and disfigurements for his enemies,( that i would not do to a terrorist who raped and tortured my whole family to death.)

Sure, I want all terrorists dead, quickly put out of their misery, but not tortured and mutilated!

How could Allah want talk of cutting off hands and feet in his "holy book".


Some Muslims act out those sick fantasies!

How can you not say, "THAT'S F***** UP!!!"

A special deal I have for you. Please keep confronting me, and I will research this more. You could also read the Quran too. It is only about half the size of the New Testament. Did you know that Joshua in the OT was directed to kill everything including the animals in several villiages?

I'm just pretty sure that Muhammad PBUH said something like, "If they attack you" then "Kill and murder them until they are all gone". The problem is that people often just say what they think without the facts.

 

[Spiderman]

A special deal I have for you. Please keep confronting me, and I will research this more. You could also read the Quran too. It is only about half the size of the New Testament. Did you know that Joshua in the OT was directed to kill everything including the animals in several villiages?

I'm just pretty sure that Muhammad PBUH said something like, "If they attack you" then "Kill and murder them until they are all gone". The problem is that people often just say what they think without the facts.

Thanks

I have read the Qur'an front to back twice. First time I tried to practice Islam cuz I was a sociopath and I liked the pretty arabic.

Second time, I was compassionate, and it filled me with darkness, bitterness, and made me sick!

 

[Spiderman]

A special deal I have for you. Please keep confronting me, and I will research this more. You could also read the Quran too. It is only about half the size of the New Testament. Did you know that Joshua in the OT was directed to kill everything including the animals in several villiages?

I'm just pretty sure that Muhammad PBUH said something like, "If they attack you" then "Kill and murder them until they are all gone". The problem is that people often just say what they think without the facts.

Yes,
The Bible is sick as well!

 

[Epic Beard Man]

The problem is asserting a 'conceptual' view in conflict with reality.

I don't see how.

Your argument is an idealistic view of Islam, and neglects the problematic history of Islam which is a common problem with Judaism and Christianity in particular the relationship with those who believe differently.

Are you referring to the legal system within Islam or are you referring to scriptural?

As a Baha'i I accept Islam as founded on Revelation for a given age like Christianity and Judaism. The problem remains for all three Abrahamic religions as whether they offer the potential of leadership and guidance for humanity for the contemporary world. By the evidence they all fail. First, the exclusiveness and finality of their claims alienates the believers of other belief systems, and the resulting conflict and violence in the world is destructive to the spiritual and physical advancement of humanity.

Given the history of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, as stand alone religions and their claims, without alternatives atheism or agnosticism are more logical and reasonable alternative.

The Baha'i Faith is a reasonable alternative for the Theist, but possibly not the only possibility.

Well considering Baha'i is a much younger religion and more pluralistic, I can see your point, but you'd be hard pressed to critique leadership when it was said that he referred to others who did not believe as him as "donkeys" and "pigs" this was gestured to those who did not believe as him (or in him):

“Say, Oh you donkey! Whatever God says is the truth and will not become void by the words of the polytheists (deniers of Baha’ism).” (Baha’u’llah, Kitab-i badi`, p. 174)

So while you may criticize leadership amongst the Jews, Christians and Muslims perhaps one may reflect their own leadership amidst the presumption of plurality in their own faith.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

It's evidence that you have no clue or idea, Why God came down here in the body of flesh of Jesus Christ.

For what reason did God come down here, What did mankind do, that caused God to come down here ?

The Qu'ran does not teach this and why not, if the Qu'ran is so important.

Instead of saying that I don't have no clue perhaps you'd debate the logic (not scripture) behind the notion that God needed to morph into a human being to save humanity. I find it peculiar that in scripture, God can save Moses, Noah, and Abraham through divine revelation or through angelic intermediaries, yet, from a spiritual standpoint it is necessary that a human needed to be tortured and killed for the metaphysical benefit of humankind. Rather than divine revelation man is only saved through God morphing into a human, in understanding that in conjunction to the historical context of all previous prophetic events, I find the idea of God morphing into a human to save humanity quite strange.

 

[Spiderman]

@Ellen Brown
I consider you to be a Muslim, it's just you believe true Islam died with the Prophet Muhammad.

At any rate, when I meet a good Muslim like you, it makes my heart heavy and sorrowful to attack the Qur'an like it is the most evil, ugly book ever!

Thing is, I really like most of it. I especially like the book "Mary".

I hope Muhammad (Peace be upon him) wasn't the hateful bigot i accuse him of, but when i repeatedly read dehumanizing verses towards Idolators, it really disturbs me, because I know very peaceful Idolators who are loving, nonviolent people who follow the golden rule like Gandhi or Martin Luther King.

Also, when I see even one verse that involves mutilation, that greatly disturbs me, because Islamic regimes in the 21st century cut out tongues, cut off hands, cut off ears, cut off lips, cut off noses, plucked out eyes, and left people permanently disfigured and disabled for life.

The reason this bothers me so much, is i would MUCH rather die than go through that!

When I can trace such barbaric torture back to a verse in the Qur'an, it deeply disturbs me!

I gave up on the Bible for the same reason, but the Qur'an is much shorter, much more recent, and the torture and mutilation more graphic. Also, there are a lot more Muslims legally committing such acts in the name of God than Christians.

So, this causes me to resent the Qur'an with every fiber of my being.

But, most of the Qur'an is a good book, still!

It just really bothers me that countless millions of free-thinkers can never speak in protest of the Qur'an without getting their tongue cut out, tortured, mutilated, or imprisoned for years in many Muslim-majority countries.

If Muslims were not ruining so many lives, I would not hate the Koran!

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Just want to clarify this. Not sure what you are saying. Judaism (in my understanding) being the oldest of the three would be more the "root" of both Christianity and later Islam.

Meaning there are Christian elements (such as the mentioning of Jesus, and Mary and monks/priests in the Qur'an) and Jewish elements such as the mentioning of the children of Israel, Moses, Abraham etc. These are roots in Islam as they are elements.

 

[YmirGF]

Meaning there are Christian elements (such as the mentioning of Jesus, and Mary and monks/priests in the Qur'an) and Jewish elements such as the mentioning of the children of Israel, Moses, Abraham etc. These are roots in Islam as they are elements.

Some modern thinkers might describe it as being similar to cultural appropriation.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Just to clarify two things:



Judaism (including Orthodox) definitely believes that G-d is the G-d of all mankind, the whole world and all the worlds. These are some of the epithets we have made for Him as well. When we speak about G-d being G-d of the Jews, we are relating to the particular relationship we have with Him and it's not really a statement about His objective being. For instance, every blessing we make starts with the words: Blessed are you Hashem, our G-d, King of the world..." We have here both elements: our distinct relationship with G-d and G-d's objective status with relation to the world at large.

There are 7 Laws for the believer. The 613+ are only for Jews.

Regarding the second paragraph didn't you just tell me that Jews are tasked with additonal laws as they are to be representatives to the world.

In regards to the first paragraph this may be the custom to those within the Jewish tradition, but how it appears mainstream it seems that God is localized to a specific people. Remember the analogy you made of the special fan club?

 

[Spiderman]

Some modern thinkers might describe it as being similar to cultural appropriation.

How about our culture renounce psychopathic tortures, disfigurments, and mutilations in the Bible and Qur'an?

I have met many Christians like myself, who see psychotic mass-killings or cruelty in the Bible and say "thats stupid, that's f***** up!"

I have not met a single Muslim online or offline who ever said that about the Qur'an, which is very short in comparison, and contains more graphic torture and mutilation than the Bible.

I consider the Bible to be stupid and f****" up, btw!

It doesn't seem to ruin nearly as many millions of lives in the 21st century as the Koran!

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Some modern thinkers might describe it as being similar to cultural appropriation.

Not really funny...Corny actually.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Hmmm. I'll have to think about what you say. As a backslidden Muslim, there are parts of it that I adore, though other parts are very disappointing. I think that Fatwas and Hadeeths have been given more weight than the Quran. Hijab and Abaya give me privacy and I feel more safe under their cover. Women's rights in Islam have been severely curtailed in many places. The very idea that Sunnis and Shia would fight and kill each other for more than 1400 years is shameful, and makes Islam the laughing stock of the world. I am still Muslim.

Hence is why I said conceptually.

 

[Ellen Brown]

According to the Bible Judaism is older than Moses. Moses came along to set thing right and restore God's law and absolute Monotheism.

Traditional Christianity today should listen to Moses, and ditch their Tritheism, incarnate God, and ditch the statues and idols.

You are going to force me to try to find reliable references, aren't you? I have the "Creation" around 4000 BC. The reference I have, from a Jewish site, says he was born in 1800 BC, and is seen as the star of Judaism. Feel free to correct me.

I see The Creator, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as different beings, though my knowledge of the Holy Spirit is uncertain.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

The very idea that Sunnis and Shia would fight and kill each other for more than 1400 years is shameful, and makes Islam the laughing stock of the world. I am still Muslim.

The problem with the infighting is the result of the conflict of the initial successorship of Muhammad, then it evolved into a culture clash which also gave rise to geopolitical conflicts.

 

[Spiderman]

I will always have a soft spot in my heart for Shiites, because they are a persecuted minority, and Sunni regimes blow up their mosques, torture them mercilessly, and use their women as sex-slaves even in my lifetime.

So I pray the Shiites defend themselves against the Sunni bullies!

I almost always favor a bullied minority, even if it is Muslims being treated like that by non-muslims!

 

[Epic Beard Man]

The view on women is problematic for me. Why would a genderless god promote misogyny? And if you say that comes from the followers, they must be getting the idea that their god expects them to treat women as inferior to men. (which they will say supports their beliefs)

Islam has a lot of beauty within it but a lot of problems.

Well I wont go into the details as I'm not Muslim but in your own time I'd encourage you to read the following to give you a basic understanding on the roles of women that contradict the popular western feminist notion of Muslim womanhood in Islam:

http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t125/e2510

 

[Tumah]

Regarding the second paragraph didn't you just tell me that Jews are tasked with additonal laws as they are to be representatives to the world.

Yes, but there's no requirement to actually be Jewish. So non-Jews have only 7 Laws, which I think is somewhat less than Islam has. Both Judaism and Islam agree that Muslims aren't Jewish.

In regards to the first paragraph this may be the custom to those within the Jewish tradition, but how it appears mainstream it seems that God is localized to a specific people. Remember the analogy you made of the special fan club?

Remember the analogy I [think I] told you about the kingdom with the officers and the other subjects, which actually was based on Maimonides (Guide for the Perplexed 3:51).

 

[Spiderman]

@Deidre
You are right that Islam has a lot of beauty!
Im the first to admit it practicing Islam as a sociopath in prison.
I also visited a mosque multiple times in New York, and it was much more exciting than going to Church.
It felt like I was being bold, ballsy, and daring to even enter such a place, so it had an adrenaline rush, cuz I didn't know if they would torture me!

Thing is, only one of them was an a**hole to me, a Palestinian, and he made me sit in the back of the mosque, cuz i wasn't Muslim and he said bad things about me.

The rest were nice, peaceful people. One was a humble old man who was very loveable.

Thing is, some of these peaceful westernized likeable Muslims defend laws like cutting off hands, heads, forced dress-code, and not letting an entire gender drive a friggin car!

So, many of these "peaceful Muslims" would prefer the west was run like Saudi-Arabia.

• Which essentially means, they hate freedom of speech, and women's equality, while they are humble, law abiding, peaceful, and loveable.

Also keep in mind, the food that kills rats is more than 90% good loveable food that is healthy for the rat. The tiny percent that is poison, kills the rat.

That is something to consider, regarding the beauty of Islam!

They also did not allow women into the mosque.

 

[Ellen Brown]

The problem with the infighting is the result of the conflict of the initial successorship of Muhammad, then it evolved into a culture clash which also gave rise to geopolitical conflicts.

I knew this. And then they killed Ali, the so called rightful heir to Islam, according to the Shia. Islam is very messed up. I think that Abu Baker followed Muhammad. He is said to have formed the first Calif. Stories circulate that Ali was the rightful heir, but he did not want it, and left to go to modern day Iraq. On his way there, he was murdered by the followers of Abu Baker.

Aisha, according to Muslims is the one who compiled the notes of Muhammad PBUH, and that became the Quran. This from Muslim speakers at the Mosque. I've heard non Muslim "scholars" tell a different story about these things, but what do they know?

Compare that to Christianity, which continues in Chaos.

From my very biased point of view, Paul took Christianity in a new direction. The Disciples were all Jews, and wanted The Master's belief system to be an extension of it. They'd have had a big problem with Jewish leaders of the day. Christianity was in constant turmoil until Constantine, around 312 AD. There are apparently mixed reports about him, some saying he was not as trustworthy as Trump.

Then, of course something happened around 700 AD, and then the Inquisition, and then what ever Martin Luther did. Christians were a blood thirsty bunch; crucifying and burning each other at the stake. None of that had a thing to do with the goals of Jesus Christ. Even today, if the members of a religion are not obediently in doctrinal lock step, there is blood to shed.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Yes, but there's no requirement to actually be Jewish. So non-Jews have only 7 Laws, which I think is somewhat less than Islam has. Both Judaism and Islam agree that Muslims aren't Jewish.


Remember the analogy I [think I] told you about the kingdom with the officers and the other subjects, which actually was based on Maimonides (Guide for the Perplexed 3:51).

Regarding the second, I seem to have forgotten that one, but you posed an analogy regarding the Jewish relationship with God by offering the analogy of the special fan club. I thought it was quite the clever analogy. But of course my position was clear that there seems to presuppose the idea of a special relationship between God a specific people. which is why you and I disagree.

But regarding the analogy in relation to Maimonides, were you referring to this?


"I will begin the subject of this chapter with a simile. A king is in his palace, and all his subjects are partly in the country, and partly abroad. Of the former, some have their backs turned towards the king's palace, and their faces in another direction; and some are desirous and zealous to go to the palace, seeking "to inquire in his temple," and to minister before him, but have not yet seen even the face of the wall of the house. Of those that desire to go to the palace, some reach it, and go round about in search of the entrance gate; others have passed through the gate, and walk about in the ante-chamber; and others have succeeded in entering into the inner part of the palace, and being in the same room with the king in the royal palace. But even the latter do not immediately on entering the palace see the king, or speak to him; for, after having entered the inner part of the palace, another effort is required before they can stand before the king--at a distance, or close by--hear his words, or speak to him. I will now explain the simile which I have made. The people who are abroad are all those that have no religion, neither one based on speculation nor one received by tradition. Such are the extreme Turks that wander about in the north, the Ku****es who live in the south, and those in our country who are like these. I consider these as irrational beings, and not as human beings; they are below mankind, but above monkeys, since they have the form and shape of man, and a mental faculty above that of the monkey."