why it's always ( ISLAM vs. CHRISTIANITY )

[JerryL]

Thats a bold statement, be careful...

I don't understand you. Be careful of what?

 

[TashaN]

Right. God said "there is to be no compulsion in religion", but then, at a special time, God say "make them convert or die". It's hyocritical and contradictory to the standard.

nope, I don't think so

it wasn't convert or die and i don't know how did you conclude so?

anyway, i really understand that i may have a problem in making you reach to what i'm aiming for or what i'm trying to say because we are talking in general in this thread and to talk about this i have to start with you from the beginning.

So, i'm preparing a thread about concept of Jihad in Islam and i really hope that you will join me there so we can talk further more about it in details because it includes defentions and stories about it going along with what we have nowdays as a misconception about the relationship between islam and terrorism (which is prohibited in islam).


Peace ...

 

[JerryL]

it wasn't convert or die and i don't know how did you conclude so?

Something about "kill all the idoloters unless they repent [and become muslim]". I think that's the part that had me thinking they were killing all the non Muslims unless they converted... the part where it explicitly says to.

So, i'm preparing a thread about concept of Jihad in Islam and i really hope that you will join me there so we can talk further more about it in details because it includes defentions and stories about it going along with what we have nowdays as a misconception about the relationship between islam and terrorism (which is prohibited in islam).

But, in the passages cited, there is an insturction to kill all idolaters. This may have been only for certain groups at certain times, but it is clearly support of killing *all* non-Muslims in those circumstances. I don't see how one could make an anti-terrorist claim that fits in with this... assuming all the victims were non-Muslims.

 

[TashaN]

Something about "kill all the idoloters unless they repent [and become muslim]". I think that's the part that had me thinking they were killing all the non Muslims unless they converted... the part where it explicitly says to.

But, in the passages cited, there is an insturction to kill all idolaters. This may have been only for certain groups at certain times, but it is clearly support of killing *all* non-Muslims in those circumstances. I don't see how one could make an anti-terrorist claim that fits in with this... assuming all the victims were non-Muslims.

I guess there is no way except to tell you the story from the beginning to make you understand what is the main point in killing in this verse about the idolaters.

Before Islam everybody in Arabia was worshiping an idiol and sometimes many idols in one time so when Allah was stating in Quran saying "Idolaters" so he means those people in the time of prophet Mohamed (PBUH) only who were living in "Mekkah" and around it and most of them were from his brethren.

Then, while more people were converting to Islam ( by thier own ) so the idolaters were getting more angry and they were planning to stop the spread of Islam by force.

So, at that time even before Mohamed (PBUH) was born all Arabs had that rule to not fight in the holy months.

So, there was like a "Peace" and deal between Mohamed (PBUH) and the idolaters to not attack each other.

The problem occured because there was many enemies for muslims around Arabia and idolaters wasn't the only enemy and the deal was to not fight in the holy months and also to not help the other enemies of Mohamed(PBUH).

Nevertheless, those idolaters gathered with the other enemies of muslims to attack muslims even in the holy months so they broke 2 rules:

1- to not fight in the holy months.
2- to not help the other enemies of muslims.

Then, Allah ordered Mohamed (PBUH) to hold till the holy months passed and then to fight them back because the normal situation is to attack them directly to defend themselves from the idolaters and the other enemies but as i told you before that muslims were waiting till the holy months passed and then they fight the idolaters back.

Actually, I don't know why it's strange to fight the one who fought you and the one who broke the deals and rules.

However, nowdays many people around the world think that this is a direct command to kill any "non muslims" which is totally wrong because this verse came in a special event to fight back the idolaters at that time only.

In conclusion, there is somthing in Quran i guess i have to make it clear which is that every verse in Quran didn't came just like that suddnly but according to several events that was happening at that time so we can apply some verses nowdays and we can't apply the other verses now because it's releated to that time only.

Only scholars knows about these things in details because they learn it as an acadamic studies and they memorize the verses and when God said this verse to Mohamed and why ..etc.

i hope that i helped even little bit to make things clear or at least to give you some hints that may help you to understand the whole picture of it.

Peace ...

 

[JerryL]

I hear what you are saying, but your interpretation of events is not consistant with the text.

Then, Allah ordered Mohamed (PBUH) to hold till the holy months passed and then to fight them back because the normal situation is to attack them directly to defend themselves from the idolaters and the other enemies but as i told you before that muslims were waiting till the holy months passed and then they fight the idolaters back.

This is your claim, that the Muslims were ordered to defend themselves from those attacking them. Let's look at the commands though.

Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.

​

Notice here that there's no metion of disbelievers who attacked you. In fact, there's no mention of attack. A command "defend yourself" would make far more sense "those who persecute you" or "those who attack you" or the like... but this says "disbelievers".

But you think that disbelievers means "people who are actively engaged in fighting you"? OK, let's look further:

Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the polltax (jiziya) with the hand of humility.

​

Again, no mention of "who attacks you", but rather all non-Muslims. Extort money from them (threaten them with force if they do not).

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them and take them captive, and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush….


​

And again, no mention of attacking only people engaged in hostilities, or even only some idolaters... but all "wherever you find them" and from ambush.

I really don't see that this text ("ambush and slay idolaters wherever you find them") describes what you say it does ("defend yourself from those who attack you"). Why do yu think that idolaters who became Muslim were spared, but Idolaters who said "I'm sorry, I won't attack you" without changing religion were not?

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Umm. No... and "go ask a geologist" is not a cite.

There are basically two methods by which mountains can be created: they can be grown by volcanic actifity or they can be caused by an upthrusting of the tectonic plate.

I never said ask a geologist was a cite. I said ask ask a geologist about the properties of a mountain. What it does, why they are there what purpose they serve, and of course how they are created. There are many different aspects one can examine in mountains.

If you are fully fluent in neither English nor Arabic, you have set quite a task for yourself.

I never said I was not fluent in English I just said you are more eloquent in speech. Please brother it sounds as if you are trying to insult my intelligence I could be mistaken in my assumption. I would never do that to you or anyone else. If you are truly sincere in trying to figure out the differences and discover what the truth is then we will continue to discuss but if this is just a way to start an argument or to get peoples emotions involved then I am sorry but we can no longer continue the discussion and if you are not insulting me I am sorry it just sounds that way. May Allah forgive me.

You may also want to ask why a devout Muslim would have difficulty with a perfect, divinely written book which claims to be "easy in the tongue"

As I said the book was revealed in arabic and it is very easy for an Arabic speaking person to understand in his mother tongue it is sometimes difficult to translate from language to language. That is why I always go to my Arab brothers who speak arabic to get clarification.

So there was not a single non-Muslim anywhere in the region who was not doing so? Not one?

What about those with whom they had peace agreements? The passage goes on to say "honor the agreement till it's done then go kill them if they don't convert" [paraphrased].

Except in book 9 of the Quran, where people were killed unless they converted.

Again you must know the what happened, when and why if you would rent the movie The Message and watch it. It will give you a better understanding of what I am talking about. Writing the whole thing from beginning to end would take to long.

Actually, it says "slay the idoloters".

But it still begs the question. You'd not kill the opressors who converted to Islam, but would kill an opressor who (for example) converted to Buddism and stopped opressing. It was not "stop or die" it was "convert or die"... and again, I can find no reason to believe that a 5-year-old opressed them; and yet I see no exceptions by age.

Why would I kill and opressor who converted to Islam, and if that person did the same thing to me as the Prophet. If he was killing and starving my family I would leave it somewhere else. If he pursued me I would find somewhere else to go and try to get people to give protection to my family. If that did not work and they chased me all the way to this other land I am now living, bringing and army to try and destroy what is left of my family should I not defend my God, my family and my person. if that were the case in your situation would you not fight?

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I hear what you are saying, but your interpretation of events is not consistant with the text.



This is your claim, that the Muslims were ordered to defend themselves from those attacking them. Let's look at the commands though.

Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.

​

Notice here that there's no metion of disbelievers who attacked you. In fact, there's no mention of attack. A command "defend yourself" would make far more sense "those who persecute you" or "those who attack you" or the like... but this says "disbelievers".

But you think that disbelievers means "people who are actively engaged in fighting you"? OK, let's look further:

Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the polltax (jiziya) with the hand of humility.

​

Again, no mention of "who attacks you", but rather all non-Muslims. Extort money from them (threaten them with force if they do not).

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them and take them captive, and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush….


​

And again, no mention of attacking only people engaged in hostilities, or even only some idolaters... but all "wherever you find them" and from ambush.

I really don't see that this text ("ambush and slay idolaters wherever you find them") describes what you say it does ("defend yourself from those who attack you"). Why do yu think that idolaters who became Muslim were spared, but Idolaters who said "I'm sorry, I won't attack you" without changing religion were not?

Again you must learn the story of the Prophet(saw) because his story is not included in the Book of God. They are seperate for instance the story of how Mohammed(saw) got the revelation, He went to the mountain, prayed, the Angel Gabriel came to him and said he is a Messenger from his lord and told him to read. Mohammed said I cannot read, The Angel told him a second and third time to read and Mohammed answerd the same. The Angel said said " Read in the name of they lord who has created all that exists. He has created man from a single clot of blood, who taught man the use of the peon and what man knew not." Chapter 96 Surah Alaq. Now this whole story is not in the Qur'an just the verses that were revealed only that is why this is only The Book of Allah because the only thing in it are the words of God. And not the details surrounding it. You have to learn the sirat of Mohammed his path and all these things have been compiled in other references ie. the hadiths. The book of God, The book of the Prophet and the Book of the Scholars are different but all beautifully connected but it will take some study and talking to some Muslims in your area. Writing everything would take up alot of time and space in these forums. And also when Mohammed conquered back Mecca the Pagans remaining have not converted yet but yet he spared them all. Even the man, among others, Abu Sufyan was forgiven by the Prophet for everything and he and some others accepted Islam later. Abu Sufyan is the one who orchestrated all the attrocities done to Muslims because he was the leader of the Pagans watch the movie The Message if you do not want to read all the books. Also this event is foretold in the bible as well. I hope this helps let me know if you need more clarification

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Repent from what? What if their religion doesn't have regular prayers and charity? It seems this passage is saying "repent of their idolotry" (which is to say "convert"). Note also that all those are in the same passage.

"Kill the infedels" but "don't fight on the holy months, wait till after" and "don'ty violate your treaty, wait till it expires".

We commit sins knowing and unknowingly that is why Allah says to always repent if man knew really how much he sinned daily he would ask forgiveness all day long as stated by our Prophet and no one asked for forgiveness more than him even though Allah said he was forgiven from any mistakes he made and he was going to Paradise once one of the companions asked him why do you pray, fast and do all these things to the length you do it when Allah has already forgiven you He said "should I not then be a thankful servant"

 

[JerryL]

I never said ask a geologist was a cite. I said ask ask a geologist about the properties of a mountain. What it does, why they are there what purpose they serve, and of course how they are created. There are many different aspects one can examine in mountains.

I'm well aware of them (and mountains have no purpose). Your claim regarding mountains and plate tectonics is simply false.

I never said I was not fluent in English I just said you are more eloquent in speech. Please brother it sounds as if you are trying to insult my intelligence I could be mistaken in my assumption.

I was not intended as an insult. I (mistakenly?) assumed that you were ESL (English as a second langugage). Considering the linguistics involved in the conversation, were you a native speaker of neither language, it would pose quite an obsticle.

My apologies if you were offended, no offence was intended.

Again you must know the what happened, when and why if you would rent the movie The Message and watch it. It will give you a better understanding of what I am talking about. Writing the whole thing from beginning to end would take to long.

Were the people commanded to kill all idolaters they found who did not convert or not? It seems a pretty straight-forward question.

Why would I kill and opressor who converted to Islam

Because of the opression. Why would you kill any opressor who repented and changed his ways, but did not convert to Islam?

That's much of the telling point in the passage. All idolaters are to be attacked from ambush (there's no mention that they must be the individuals involved in opression), and all muslims are to be spared (even if they were the individuals involved in opression).

And also when Mohammed conquered back Mecca the Pagans remaining have not converted yet but yet he spared them all. Even the man, among others, Abu Sufyan was forgiven by the Prophet for everything and he and some others accepted Islam later. Abu Sufyan is the one who orchestrated all the attrocities done to Muslims because he was the leader of the Pagans watch the movie The Message if you do not want to read all the books.

I'm quite aware that Mohammed did not kill all non-Muslims. There are quite a few stories (they are in teh Hadith?) of Mohammed's government leaving at least other "religions of the book" to almost self-govern; and though the destroied / desicrated (from there perspective) several holy sites of other religions, I don't dispute your claim.

What I'm pointing out is that there is also a contrary passage, and contrarty period, where the Quran describes an order to kill all idolaters from ambush unless they become Muslim.

Perhaps this was for a time and in a place, much like the genocide of the Hittites by the Jews was commanded by God in the OT. But also, much like that, you cannot say that Jehovia never commands the killing of innocent people because he certainly did there.

 

[Ezzedean]

What I'm pointing out is that there is also a contrary passage, and contrarty period, where the Quran describes an order to kill all idolaters from ambush unless they become Muslim.

Can you show me this verse please, so I can read it myself along with the rest of the prayer.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I'm well aware of them (and mountains have no purpose). Your claim regarding mountains and plate tectonics is simply false.

And your opinion is based on what source. I will go back and research it for you and you tell me if my source is valid or not. This will take time because I have like 7 videos and 4 books and dealing with this particular issue and some of my books are lent out but I will get it for you insha Allah.

I was not intended as an insult. I (mistakenly?) assumed that you were ESL (English as a second langugage). Considering the linguistics involved in the conversation, were you a native speaker of neither language, it would pose quite an obsticle.

My apologies if you were offended, no offence was intended.

You are a man of noble character and humbleness and your apology is most definitely accepted and I also must apologize to you if I jumped the gun. May Allah forgive us both.

Were the people commanded to kill all idolaters they found who did not convert or not? It seems a pretty straight-forward question.

Yes but is all the idolators who have oppressed them and the ones that were on the battlefield because this is when these verses were revealed. Those idolators who came to start WAR with them. All of those idolators because some of the women in Mecca were idolators and we are not permitted to harm women and children. I remember you said something earlier about a five year old disbeliever. Children are innocent and able to decide for themselves until they reach a certain age of responsibility. Only the idolators who have oppressed you killed, tortured, and started war with you these are the ones who Allah says to kill because these people did not want peace. Because Allah also states in the Qur'an fight them until they stop and if they stop you stop. But not all the idolators are to be killed there is a hadith when the Prophet went to a city called Al Taif to ask for their support they rudely rejected him and stoned him very, very badly. The Angel Gabriel came to Mohammed after he prayed and told him that his companion the Angel of the Mountain would bring the whole mountain next to Al Taif on top of them for what they had done to him and exsterminate any trace of them. The Prophet said no because he said how do I know they will not become muslim, who do I know their family or their children may become muslim.

Because of the opression. Why would you kill any opressor who repented and changed his ways, but did not convert to Islam?

As I stated above we stop when they stop but the idolators whom Allah was speaking of clearly would not stop as you can see they drove them out by putting them under horrible conditions, so the muslims left to seek refuge in another land. The pagans sent people to try and have them imprisoned, but a Christian King gave them refuge because of his justice, still they kept killing and torturing his followers until finally everyone including the Prophet had to leave Mecca. The pagan could have ended it there but yet they travelled across the burning desert to the place in Medina where the Prophet was given refuge to try and not make peace but to eradicate the muslims. Some of whom were brothers, and cousins to the pagans. why is this if the issue was they did not want him practicing their religion in Mecca because you must remember the only reason for this oppression is their belief and the Prophet was gaining followers and the rich pagan would lose their wealth because of this change in belief because alot of their wealth was accumulated because of the pagan festival and rituals. Abu Sufyan's the chief rival to Mohammed daughter married the Prophet and Abu Sufyan says he could think of no better man to marry his daughter his only difference was religion. But this is why it is important to know the Prophet and his story and the things he said and did very similar to what Christians adhere to what Jesus says but the book of Allah and the life of the Prophet are not contained in the same book. But the Prophet is the living embodiment of Qur'an and you have to use his example to apply it to the laws given in Qur'an. Allah says to pray but he does not in Qur'an tell you how to pray so we use the Prophets teachings to show us how to apply the orders of Allah.

I'm quite aware that Mohammed did not kill all non-Muslims. There are quite a few stories (they are in teh Hadith?) of Mohammed's government leaving at least other "religions of the book" to almost self-govern; and though the destroied / desicrated (from there perspective) several holy sites of other religions, I don't dispute your claim.

What I'm pointing out is that there is also a contrary passage, and contrarty period, where the Quran describes an order to kill all idolaters from ambush unless they become Muslim.

the passage as I said is for that specific instance would keep oppressing them and would not stop and it was all of those specific individuals. how many times would it take for you to get robbed at gunpoint by the same individual before you sat and waited for him with a gun of your own to stop him from harming your person by any means. It is the same for these individuals there are many stories of the torture and persecution which are too many and long to mention but if you knew these references it would become much more clear. We have to take all the words of the Qur'an together in its entirety. I understand how it seems contrary but you have to know of these other verses. We as Muslims can not do just accept Qur'an and reject hadith. Vice verse it is as if you accept God but not the sayings of the one who gave you the message. It is like accepting Jesus but not believing in the bible. Now these two are combined where as the Qur'an and sunnah are seperate.

Perhaps this was for a time and in a place, much like the genocide of the Hittites by the Jews was commanded by God in the OT. But also, much like that, you cannot say that Jehovia never commands the killing of innocent people because he certainly did there.

Allah never commands innocent people in islam to be killed it is only those who transgress the laws of Allah, and it was only till the order was given by Allah to the Prophet that they were permitted to fight and this is after all of the persecution and remember there were rules in battle as well.

 

[JerryL]

Can you show me this verse please, so I can read it myself along with the rest of the prayer.

It's been quoted several times on this thread. Including more than once on this page. Scroll up.

 

[Malus 12:9]

Isalm posters according to Allah in the Quran the muslims have the right to, with the help of war and man slaughter, spread their religion. That's why many people say that Islam was spread with the sword and thats the truth. In Islam it's, eye or an eye, tooth for an tooth.

Jesus said: "Treat everyone equally, and treat them the way you want them to treat you". "If somebody punch you on the cheek turn the other one"...THAT'S THE RELIGION OF PEACE AND LOVE NO MATTER WHAT RACE YOU'VE GOT! ...

Not all Muslims are terrorists BUT almost all terrorists these days are Muslims. If you do not believe in Islam then you are considered an infidel and thus have less rights and are seen as being less then muslim.

 

[JerryL]

Jesus said: "Treat everyone equally, and treat them the way you want them to treat you". "If somebody punch you on the cheek turn the other one"...THAT'S THE RELIGION OF PEACE AND LOVE NO MATTER WHAT RACE YOU'VE GOT! ...

Actually, Jesus said:

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. - Matthew 10:34
​

Not all Muslims are terrorists BUT almost all terrorists these days are Muslims.

Tamir Tigers, White seperatists (whether blowing up city buildings in Oklahoma or burning churches in Georgia), the Shin-fain, etc.

Your ignorance is appaling.

 

[Malus 12:9]

Your ignorance is appaliing..

Yet I get frubal for the same post from an islam. And comments from a wannabe Deut don't really interest me :biglaugh:

 

[JerryL]

Yet I get frubal for the same post from an islam. And comments from a wannabe Deut don't really interest me :biglaugh:

Apparently me pointing out both of your lies doesn't interest you either. I wonder what kind of wannabe that makes you?Knockout

 

[Malus 12:9]

Not one at all. It's not what you did, it's the way you did it. If you had've just pointed out the lies,
and not added to it by stating my ignorance is appalling, I would have said "ok". The PM service is there for us to belittle. Also, feel free to hit me up at [email protected], (on msn messenger) or pm me if you should feel the need to tell my about my ignorance.

Heh, what I posted wasn't even my opinion anyways, was from some site. I can't post my own material lol

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Isalm posters according to Allah in the Quran the muslims have the right to, with the help of war and man slaughter, spread their religion. That's why many people say that Islam was spread with the sword and thats the truth. In Islam it's, eye or an eye, tooth for an tooth.

In Islam, Muslims are not allowed and cannot make people change their religion by force there is not compulsion in our religion. And a study into the historical spread of Islam would illustrate that this is not how the religion was spread. If people follow what Allah says they cannot do this now I am not saying people under the banner of Islam did not try to do it this way but our beloved prophet never did or allowed these types of things and that is who is correct if you transgress in the religion which many muslim leaders in history have done then that is where you see that these things took place but again you must know our Prophet and what he has said concerning the laws of the religions. People do what they do and we are to not judge the religion on the actions of fanatics and rebels. The Prophet never spread the religion by the sword so if people do that then they are incorrect in the manner they follow our Prophet because we are commanded to do and act as he and his companions did. I hope this helps you understand. If any other questions please feel free to ask

Not all Muslims are terrorists BUT almost all terrorists these days are Muslims. If you do not believe in Islam then you are considered an infidel and thus have less rights and are seen as being less then muslim.

As I stated above the ones who follow in the teachings of our Beloved Prophet and the Qur'an these are the real muslims if you take away or add to the religion then Allah states you have gone off the straight path. Allah tells us in the Qur'an there are 73 different sects in Islam, 72 in Christians, and 71 in jew only 1 out of all is going to paradise and those are the ones who follow and believe in him and follow the commands of the Prophet. Because he is living embodiment of Qur'an.

 

[Scott1]

Allah tells us in the Qur'an there are 73 different sects in Islam, 72 in Christians, and 71 in jew only 1 out of all is going to paradise and those are the ones who follow and believe in him and follow the commands of the Prophet. Because he is living embodiment of Qur'an.

What happens to the rest of us who do not believe in Muhammed or the Qur'an?

 

[Malus 12:9]

They will go to hell?