why it's always ( ISLAM vs. CHRISTIANITY )

[JerryL]

Not one at all. It's not what you did, it's the way you did it. If you had've just pointed out the lies, and not added to it by stating my ignorance is appalling, I would have said "ok".

Ammended:

Jesus said: "Treat everyone equally, and treat them the way you want them to treat you". "If somebody punch you on the cheek turn the other one"...THAT'S THE RELIGION OF PEACE AND LOVE NO MATTER WHAT RACE YOU'VE GOT! ...

Actually, Jesus said:

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. - Matthew 10:34


​

Not all Muslims are terrorists BUT almost all terrorists these days are Muslims.

Tamir Tigers, White seperatists (whether blowing up city buildings in Oklahoma or burning churches in Georgia), the Shin-fain, etc.

 

[lilithu]

so after you finish reading ..

do you think all these similarities between Islam and Christianity are not enough for anyone to believe that Islam is the truth way to fulfill what all prophets were trying to explain for thier people?

No, logically they are not enough. The similarities between Islam and Christianity are consistent with the belief that Islam is the fulfillment of earlier prophets. But consistency only means it could be the case, not that it is the case. There are other explanations for why these similarities exist. Hence, they alone are not a compelling reason to believe, if someone doesn't already believe.

The similarities between the Qur'an and the Gospels can easily be explained in another way. The person who wrote the Qur'an had already seen/heard the Gospel texts and was familiar with that they said. I understand that Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the direct word of God, related thru Mohammed, who was illiterate and thus could not have written the Qur'an himself. And thus, what I just suggested would be blasphemy for a Muslim. But please try to understand that non-Muslims do not believe this miracle happened. And hence, there is no reason for non-Muslims to believe that the Qur'an was not created by Mohammed himself and/or his first followers.

The argument that you present above would never convince a non-Muslim to convert. You would have a much greater chance of success by showing by example how Islam has enriched your own life. (But not in the debate forum.) If people who are looking for inner peace see that you have found it in Islam, they will be much more receptive to considering submission to Allah.

 

[TashaN]

The similarities between the Qur'an and the Gospels can easily be explained in another way. The person who wrote the Qur'an had already seen/heard the Gospel texts and was familiar with that they said..

There was no arabic or even english translated copy of the bible before 1400 years and Prophet Mohamed never went to any school and he can't read and he can't write too.

I understand that Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the direct word of God, related thru Mohammed, who was illiterate and thus could not have written the Qur'an himself. And thus, what I just suggested would be blasphemy for a Muslim. But please try to understand that non-Muslims do not believe this miracle happened. And hence, there is no reason for non-Muslims to believe that the Qur'an was not created by Mohammed himself and/or his first followers..

I can simply answer you saying that in his youth he believed firmly in the Oneness of Allah (God)(SWT). He lived a very simple life and hated vanity and pride. He was compassionate to the poor, widows and orphans and shared their sufferings by helping them. He avoided all vices, which were commonly practiced among young people such as gambling, drinking wine, vulgarity and others. He was well-known as As-Sadiq(the truthful) and Al-Amin (the trustworthy). He was always trusted as a mediator between two conflicting parties in his homeland, Makkah.

The argument that you present above would never convince a non-Muslim to convert. You would have a much greater chance of success by showing by example how Islam has enriched your own life. (But not in the debate forum.) If people who are looking for inner peace see that you have found it in Islam, they will be much more receptive to considering submission to Allah.

I have no intention by posting my thread to convience a non-Muslim to convert but as a member of RF community i put my thread to share information and to gain knowledge from each other.


Peace ...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... he can't read and he can't write too.

See THE CLAIM OF MUHAMMAD'S ILLITERACY: ANOTHER LOOK.

 

[Peace]

The similarities between the Qur'an and the Gospels can easily be explained in another way. The person who wrote the Qur'an had already seen/heard the Gospel texts and was familiar with that they said. I understand that Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the direct word of God, related thru Mohammed, who was illiterate and thus could not have written the Qur'an himself.

Peace be with you lilithu,

The Quran, revealed to Muhammad during the period 610-32 CE, was more than twelve centuries ahead of Bible scholars in uncovering the fact that the Bible which we read today is not divinely inspired, but indeed authored by humans. You should know that at the time of Quranic revelation the only known versions of the Bible were the Syriac Pe****ta, and the Latin Vulgate. None of these two verstions were accessible to the Prophet, and if we supposed that he did, he could neither read it nor studied since he was illiterate even in his own native Arabic tongue.

You would have a much greater chance of success by showing by example how Islam has enriched your own life. (But not in the debate forum.) If people who are looking for inner peace see that you have found it in Islam, they will be much more receptive to considering submission to Allah.

I agree with you here, debate is not a good way to talk about one's own religion. Debating just creates tensions and hatred between people. So, it's better to avoid it, for what we need really is to understand each other, to love and to be loved.

Peace

 

[TashaN]

See THE CLAIM OF MUHAMMAD'S ILLITERACY: ANOTHER LOOK.

any Muslim can answer this question even my little 10 years old brother

1- The first Quranic revelation that came down to Muhammad is, "Read! In the name of your Lord who creates...." (96:1) It is clear that this is also a commandment. To all of us, including the prophet, God stresses the importance of literacy in the very first revelation. Furthermore, the second revelation is "The Pen" which indicates again the importance of written communication.

the answer is:
One night, while Muhammad (PBUH) was meditating in the Hiracave, the Angel Gabriel (peace be upon him) came to him. The Angel aroused him and his mighty voice reverberated in his ears. He was perplexed and did not know what to do. He was asked to read. He replied: "I cannot read!" The Angel repeated three times asking Muhammad (PBUH) to read, but he replied the same answer. Finally the Angel asked: [Read in the name of your Lord , who created man from a clot. Read in the name of your God, the Most Bountiful, who taught by means of the pen, and taught man what he did not know.] (Qur'an 96: 1-5)


2- A still more transparent picture emerges from the interesting incident described in Quran 25:4-5. In this verse, Muhammad’s opponents who rejected the divine source of the Quran accused him of fabricating narrations. "Tales from the past that he wrote down; they were dictated to him day and night," or so they alleged. This is a clear Quranic evidence that Prophet Muhammad was a literate man. Not only was Muhammad accused of writing down what he heard, one cannot dictate to an illiterate person.

the answer is:
[16] Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur-an) to make haste therewith.

[17] It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it:

[18] But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated):

[19] Nay more, it is for Us to explain it (and make it clear): Quran (75:16-19)



3- It was also a well known historical fact that Muhammad was a successful merchant before his call as a messenger prophet. As a matter of necessity, he obviously knew how to count. During his time, the numeral system as we know it today was not in use. The numerals that we use today, known as the Arabic numeral system, were invented after Islam. Historically, letters were used to represent numbers before the numeral system was invented.

Arabs never used letters to count during prophet time but if you have any historical evidence so please post it.



4- The Muslim scholars derived the illiteracy concept for Muhammad from verses 7:157-158 of the Quran. They say that the word ummy means illiterate. It is true that in today’s standard Arabic, "illiterate" is one of the meaning of this word. But this is not a compelling evidence, since "gentile" is also another meaning of it. In fact, if we study the Quran carefully where this word is found, its usage has always been in the context of "the people of the scripture" vs. "the gentiles" (see for example 3:20, 3:75, 62:2, 2:78).

for your information, most of Arabs were illiterate and when God wants to mention Prophet's brethern so he was calling them "illiterate" and the jews were calling the Arabs the "illiterates" as mentioned in many verses.

by the way, the people of the book" (ahl al-Kitab), which is precisely the opposite of "the gentiles." is a wrong assumption because (ahl al-Kitab) means the jews and christians because they had thier own books which is Torah & Injeel before Mohamed was sent by God to spread Islam.



5- There were other instances in the history of early Islam where Prophet Muhammad sent many letters to Kings and other heads of state, inviting them to embrace God's religion. The only plausible conclusion is that he realized the importance of written communication, as God has taught in the earliest revelation. Ibn Ishaq’s chronicle on this issue provides a historical evidence to support the fact that Muhammad was indeed a literate prophet.

If there is a king and he has many assistances so will he put the writer's name in the letter or he will write as the king himself is sending it? it's so clear and obvious through the history that kings had writers to write for them and also Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) was telling them to write what he wants to say.


* please if i missed any claim at that website, you want me to explain specific points or you have more questions so don't hesitate to ask me and i'll be glad to answer you.



Peace ...

 

[JerryL]

The Quran, revealed to Muhammad during the period 610-32 CE, was more than twelve centuries ahead of Bible scholars in uncovering the fact that the Bible which we read today is not divinely inspired, but indeed authored by humans.

Which part of "divinely inspired" and "authored by humans" is antithetical.

The Quran was also authored by humans. Abu Bakir had it written after Mohammed's death.

I agree with you here, debate is not a good way to talk about one's own religion. Debating just creates tensions and hatred between people.

It's also a good path to find truth. Smashing hard-faught beliefs in the search of less appealing truths is often tense.

 

[JerryL]

any Muslim can answer this question even my little 10 years old brother

Your on;y real retort here opposing the position is that the Quran claims that he was illeteratre before.

 

[lilithu]

I have no intention by posting my thread to convience a non-Muslim to convert but as a member of RF community i put my thread to share information and to gain knowledge from each other.

Respectfully, let me remind you of what you originally wrote:

so after you finish reading ..

do you think all these similarities between Islam and Christianity are not enough for anyone to believe that Islam is the truth way to fulfill what all prophets were trying to explain for thier people?

Generally, when a person is trying to convince others that their religion is "the truth" they are not just sharing knowledge but trying to convert them.

As a member of the RF community, you certainly have the right to argue the truth of your beliefs. I was not trying to tell you that you couldn't. Only suggesting that there may be a more productive path.

any Muslim can answer this question even my little 10 years old brother

The first Quranic revelation that came down to Muhammad is, "Read! In the name of your Lord who creates...." (96:1) <...> He (Mohammed) replied: "I cannot read!" <...>

Logically speaking, if the validity of a text is in doubt between two (or more people), the person(s) arguing in favor of its validity cannot use the contents of text itself to support their arguments.

In this case, your claim is that Mohammed's illiteracy is proof that he could not have written the Qur'an and therefore the Qur'an is the miraculous word of God. But in order to "prove" that Mohammed was indeed illiterate, you cite what's written in the Qur'an. Such circular reasoning will generally not convince anyone who is not already convinced.

You should know that at the time of Quranic revelation the only known versions of the Bible were the Syriac Pe****ta, and the Latin Vulgate. None of these two verstions were accessible to the Prophet, and if we supposed that he did, he could neither read it nor studied since he was illiterate even in his own native Arabic tongue.

Namaste Peace. I will accept that the only known versions of the Bible were the Syriac Pe****ta, and the Latin Vulgate. My guess is that you know much more about this than I do. However, how do you know that the Prophet did not have access to these texts? And how do you know that he was illiterate? By all accounts, even those from independent sources, the Prophet was an intelligent, thoughtful, resourceful man. While he was orphaned at an early age, he was still from a well-respected family, and I find it hard to believe that he received no education or would not have pursued it on his own. And he was a successful merchant, who would have come into contact with various cultures thru trade. Even if it were the case that he couldn't read/write, much of biblical tradition was passed down orally at that time. Oral transmission would account for both the similarities and the differences between the two texts.

Peace, I hope you know that I am not trying to convince you that what you believe is wrong, only that this argument is unconvincing to someone who doesn't already believe.

I agree with you here, debate is not a good way to talk about one's own religion. Debating just creates tensions and hatred between people. So, it's better to avoid it, for what we need really is to understand each other, to love and to be loved.

You respect for those you talk to shows thru in all the posts I've seen by you.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I have no trouble believing that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one....but then I don't limit God's nature or abilities to the limits of human understanding.

If they are One then how can Jesus send himself with the disciples out to preach the Gospel. And why would he resend himself again after he was gone. Because he had to go or it would not come. And why did he say if I do not go he won't come if he was talking about himself he would have said if I don't go I will not come. Is this true.

 

[Malus 12:9]

Why is it always Islam vs Christianity? Because the Islams keep bringing it up by posting a thread like this.

 

[TashaN]

Respectfully, let me remind you of what you originally wrote:Generally, when a person is trying to convince others that their religion is "the truth" they are not just sharing knowledge but trying to convert them.

As a member of the RF community, you certainly have the right to argue the truth of your beliefs. I was not trying to tell you that you couldn't. Only suggesting that there may be a more productive path.

I apologize if my pervious post caused all this damage to your feelings and i just asked a question and anyone can simply say NO it's not enough just to make the thread start wondering whether Islam is a real religion that fulfill what other prophets were teaching or not and even though we didn't reach to a clear fair point so at least we learn from the thread to respect each other through what we gain from the information posted in here to live in peace.

Logically speaking, if the validity of a text is in doubt between two (or more people), the person(s) arguing in favor of its validity cannot use the contents of text itself to support their arguments.

In this case, your claim is that Mohammed's illiteracy is proof that he could not have written the Qur'an and therefore the Qur'an is the miraculous word of God. But in order to "prove" that Mohammed was indeed illiterate, you cite what's written in the Qur'an. Such circular reasoning will generally not convince anyone who is not already convinced.

Sorry to disappoint you but i was just answering what Mr.Jayhawker Soule was asking about based in a given website by him and you can check this website too in his post which is number 164. That website claim was based in certain Quranic verse so it's obvious that i supposed to use the Quran too in order to respond to what he was confused about.

how do you know that the Prophet did not have access to these texts?

because simply he can't read or write Arabic so how could he get into these unarabic resources text?

how do you know that he was illiterate?

because if you have gone through the history you will find out that no such a human being ever saw Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) reading or writing and if he wasn't illiterate so the non-Muslims at that time were obviously use this weapon against him unless you think nowdays we are smarter than them and they can't came up with such a claim.

They claim that Prophet Mohammed is a poet, crazy and magician (excatly like what they said about other prophets before him) but no one ever at that time from the non Muslims said about him that he is a liar or good writer who write his book "Quran" well by himself.

Why they didn't say so?

Because simply he was the most truthfull and most trustworthy among his non-Muslims brethren at that time.

I find it hard to believe that he received no education or would not have pursued it on his own.

you should believe so if you read few things about Arabs at that time when most of them were illiterates and Prophet Mohammed was a poor lonely orphan guy.

Even if it were the case that he couldn't read/write, much of biblical tradition was passed down orally at that time. Oral transmission would account for both the similarities and the differences between the two texts.

Can't you believe that prophet Mohamed wasn't aware of other languages such as hebrew, latin or whatever? :banghead3

those texts you are talking about never been in arabic at that time.



Peace ...

 

[lilithu]

I apologize if my pervious post caused all this damage to your feelings and i just asked a question and anyone can simply say NO it's not enough just to make the thread start wondering whether Islam is a real religion that fulfill what other prophets were teaching or not and even though we didn't reach to a clear fair point so at least we learn from the thread to respect each other through what we gain from the information posted in here to live in peace.

Your post did not cause any damage to my feelings, and frankly, I can't see why you would think it did. Being neither Christian nor Muslim, I am not invested in the "truth" of this matter either way. I was simply pointing out the flaw in your logic.

NO it's not enough.

Sorry to disappoint you but i was just answering what Mr.Jayhawker Soule was asking about based in a given website by him and you can check this website too in his post which is number 164. That website claim was based in certain Quranic verse so it's obvious that i supposed to use the Quran too in order to respond to what he was confused about.

Not at all disappointed. You are right that I did not follow Jayhawker Soule's link, having assumed it was giving historical evidence against Mohammed's illiteracy (which the article does contain). I was not aware that article also refered to Qur'anic verses that suggest the Prophet could read. Interesting! Thank you for pointing my error, as this evidence makes me even more skeptical of your claims. (And thank you Mr. Jayhawker Soule!)

because if you have gone through the history you will find out that no such a human being ever saw Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) reading or writing and if he wasn't illiterate so the non-Muslims at that time were obviously use this weapon against him unless you think nowdays we are smarter than them and they can't came up with such a claim.

Perhaps you should peruse the website that Mr. Soule provided again.

you should believe so if you read few things about Arabs at that time when most of them were illiterates and Prophet Mohammed was a poor lonely orphan guy.

I am familiar with the Prophet's life circumstances, and as I said to Peace, even tho he was an orphan (and I do not deny that he overcame a lot in life and is clearly a remarkable man), he was from a well-respected family. He was not a beggar on the streets. He was raised by other family members. And as I said, given that everyone agrees that he was intelligent and reflective and resourceful and wealthy (in his adult years), I find it hard to believe that he never pursued an education.

Can't you believe that prophet Mohamed wasn't aware of other languages such as hebrew, latin or whatever? :banghead3

those texts you are talking about never been in arabic at that time.

Latin? At this point of my post, I was arguing for the likelihood of oral transmission. I was refering to the various Semitic languages that were being spoken at the time, of which Arabic and Hebrew are both a part. If he wasn't aware of Hebrew, he was most certainly aware of others. And as I said, what we are now used to as written text, as in the Bible, was originally transmitted orally.

Peace ...

Your sign-off does not fit with your eyerolling and your headbanging. Just an observation. Wouldn't want you to think that you've caused damage to my feelings.

 

[lilithu]

Why is it always Islam vs Christianity? Because the Islams keep bringing it up by posting a thread like this.

The Islams? What is that, a rock band?

If there seems to be more animus between the Islamic world and Christendom, it's because they are actually so close to each other, in theology, geography, and culture. They couldn't argue so much if they didn't share a framework on which to base their arguments. For example, they couldn't argue about the divinity of Jesus, if they didn't share the concepts of monotheism and revelation.

 

[Malus 12:9]

The Islams? What is that, a rock band?

........Fine, muslims then......

If there seems to be more animus between the Islamic world and Christendom, it's because they are actually so close to each other, in theology, geography, and culture. They couldn't argue so much if they didn't share a framework on which to base their arguments. For example, they couldn't argue about the divinity of Jesus, if they didn't share the concepts of monotheism and revelation

So, my point still remains, it is because they keep bringing it up by starting the threads like these ones

 

[lilithu]

What happens to the rest of us who do not believe in Muhammed or the Qur'an?

Namaste Scott,

Just as there are Christians who believe that anyone who doesn't accept Christ as their savior is going to hell and there are Christians who believe that God's love is great enough that something will be worked out for those who didn't believe but were otherwise good, so there are different views in Islam.

By one view, everyone will be judged according to their own standards. Each person will see all the actions that they've ever committed, good and bad, weighed against each other, and their own hearts will know whether or not they deserve salvation. Whatever the decision, its justness will be undeniable.

By another view, every person on earth had already promised submission to Allah before they were even born. So to not "submit" would be to go back on your promise to God.

Just like in the Bible, there are Qur'anic verses that support both views. I don't know the Qur'an well enough to have them memorized, but if you and/or others are interested, I'll look them up.

Recent animosity aside, I think it pretty safe to say that you are safe. Mohammed specifically said that Jews and Christians - those fellow "people of the book" - are not condemned. You're just temporarily misguided. Pagans (including Hindus, Buddhists...) and atheists, otoh, had better watch out.

In fact, I don't know if this point is clear to Westerners. I think because in our own history our holy wars were based on differing religious beliefs, we assume that's what's behind the attacks against us now. But that's not the case. For even the most extremist Muslims, the most pressing religious issue is not differing beliefs, it's the lack of belief. Traditionally, Islam can coexist with Christianity, but it cannot coexist with atheism. We think that we've been unfairly attacked, just minding our own business, tolerant of various beliefs or lack thereof, but our "minding our own business," anything-goes attitude is perceived as a threat to Islam. We were not accused of being "the great Satan" because of our being Christian. We were accused because of our secularism, our materialism, and the fact that this non-belief is impinging on the world of believers. In that respect, the late Pope has voiced similar concerns.

And before I get buried in irrate responses, I am NOT comparing John Paul II, a man for whom I have the greatest respect, with militant terrorists. The Pope's recommended response to this perceived threat was one of love and peace. And I am NOT saying that it's our fault we got attacked. There is absolutely no excuse for such violence, and as most Muslims will point out, such violence goes against their faith. (But violence goes against the Christian faith too and yet we had the crusades and the inquisition, etc.) All I'm saying is that I think we Westerners don't fully understand the situation. And if we don't fully understand the situation then our own responses are going to be misguided and ineffectual.

 

[Ezzedean]

Good Post!!
Peace and Blessings

 

[Dentonz]

Come on folks, it's not about Islam vs. Christianity. It is about JESUS.

From the mouth of (The Truth) Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet of Allah (blessed be his name). Please explain how your religion can believe that someone is a prophet if he is a liar and a fool.
Jesus is the one who said that he is the way, the truth, and the life. And that no man can come unto the Father but by him. Jesus said he and his Father (God, Allah) were one in the same. What I'm trying to say is, that if you say Jesus was of God (a true prophet) yet you deny his deity. Then by your own admission your beleif teaches you to believe in false prophets.

May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you always.

 

[TashaN]

Come on folks, it's not about Islam vs. Christianity. It is about JESUS.

From the mouth of (The Truth) Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet of Allah (blessed be his name). Please explain how your religion can believe that someone is a prophet if he is a liar and a fool.
Jesus is the one who said that he is the way, the truth, and the life. And that no man can come unto the Father but by him. Jesus said he and his Father (God, Allah) were one in the same. What I'm trying to say is, that if you say Jesus was of God (a true prophet) yet you deny his deity. Then by your own admission your beleif teaches you to believe in false prophets.

May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you always.

Jesus was saying to his disciplines that they supposed to follow him in order to obey God ofcourse but i don't know why Christians don't believe Jesus (PBUH) when he said: "Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".
(HOLY BIBLE) John 16:7

It will be great that you believe Jesus as i do so.

you can have a look in what Jesus teach about this issue in this thread we discussed about before.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=227732#post227732

post number 9 and post number 20.

Peace ...

 

[lilithu]

Come on folks, it's not about Islam vs. Christianity. It is about JESUS.

From the mouth of (The Truth) Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet of Allah (blessed be his name). Please explain how your religion can believe that someone is a prophet if he is a liar and a fool.
Jesus is the one who said that he is the way, the truth, and the life. And that no man can come unto the Father but by him. Jesus said he and his Father (God, Allah) were one in the same. What I'm trying to say is, that if you say Jesus was of God (a true prophet) yet you deny his deity. Then by your own admission your beleif teaches you to believe in false prophets.

Muslims do not believe that Jesus was a liar nor a fool. They believe that he was a true prophet sent by God but that people misunderstood his message and put words in his mouth after he was taken up by God into heaven.

Your quote from the gospel of John does not offer any proof regarding Jesus' godliness. The person who wrote it could have been wrong.