Why it's easier to be a creationist than an atheist

[Valjean]

There is no such thing as a quantum "leap".

Isn't a quantum leap is the discontinuous transition of an electron from one energy level (shell) to another, with no intermediate energy levels or steps?
That's my understanding of it, anyway.

Scroll to 11 minutes.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

So silicon, iron, magnesium, , oxygen and other minerals, oxygen, silicon, aluminum, iron, calcium, sodium, potassium and, liquid water nitrogen carbon dioxide, and other gases always existed?

No, they didn't always exist. Right after the Big Bang there was hydrogen, helium, and a bit of lithium. The rest of the elements up to iron on the periodic chart (e.g. oxygen, nitrogen, silica) were created inside the core of stars through fusion. All of the elements heavier than iron (including gold) were created by supernovae as the pressure wave from the explosion moved through gas clouds.

This is basic astrophysics. We know that our solar system formed from the debris of a supernovae because we find heavy elements on Earth and elsewhere.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

The title of this thread is that it is easier to believe that a creator put this together.

Why is it easy to believe in something that has no evidence to back it?

 

[Cacotopia]

Same with the moon, which was part of the mix of the earth but didn't make it into the planet, and as a result became tidally locked with the earth.

Why is it easy to believe in something that has no evidence to back it?

No Idea bruh, the mental gymnastics you have to do to avoid reality conflicting with your faith seems like a lot of hard work to me.

 

[exchemist]

Isn't a quantum leap is the discontinuous transition of an electron from one energy level (shell) to another, with no intermediate energy levels or steps?
That's my understanding of it, anyway.

Scroll to 11 minutes.

I watched that. What a pity. It is a shame that they still seem to be teaching the old Rutherford-Bohr model, with electrons in fixed "orbits", with semi-magical "leaps" between them.

This was replaced in about 1920 by the model we use today, involving the electrons as standing-wave patterns called "orbitals". According to the model I learnt at university, the electron in one orbital is perturbed by the electric vector of the photon and changes state to a new standing wave pattern as the energy of the photon is absorbed. It is unimaginably fast but it is modelled as a continuous process, using the time-dependent version of Schrödinger's equation.

What is certainly true is that the electron can only have a stable existence in one of a set of standing wave patterns, each of which is at a set energy. But I do wish they would let this unfortunate concept of the quantum "leap" die a natural death! If you google the term you don't find any science references at all.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

No Idea bruh, the mental gymnastics you have to do to avoid reality conflicting with your faith seems like a lot of hard work to me.

That's the conclusion I keep coming to as well. How can you hold on to a belief that runs counter to everything we see in nature? How much effort does it take to avoid typing "where do heavy elements come from" into a Google search?

I am a very curious person. I want to know how things work and where things come from. It would seem to me that I would have to completely throw out this curiosity if I were to reject the most well supported and understood findings in science. It would be like going through life with blinders on. I just couldn't do it.

 

[Valjean]

I watched that. What a pity. It is a shame that they still seem to be teaching the old Rutherford-Bohr model, with electrons in fixed "orbits", with semi-magical "leaps" between them.

This was replaced in about 1920 by the model we use today, involving the electrons as standing-wave patterns called "orbitals". According to the model I learnt at university, the electron in one orbital is perturbed by the electric vector of the photon and changes state to a new standing wave pattern as the energy of the photon is absorbed. It is unimaginably fast but it is modelled as a continuous process, using the time-dependent version of Schrödinger's equation.

What is certainly true is that the electron can only have a stable existence in one of a set of standing wave patterns, each of which is at a set energy. But I do wish they would let this unfortunate concept of the quantum "leap" die a natural death! If you google the term you don't find any science references at all.

Agreed. Bohr's model was just my first intro to atomic theory, back when I was 16 (quite a while ago). I still remember quantum leaps, tho.

 

[Cacotopia]

That's the conclusion I keep coming to as well. How can you hold on to a belief that runs counter to everything we see in nature? How much effort does it take to avoid typing "where do heavy elements come from" into a Google search?

I am a very curious person. I want to know how things work and where things come from. It would seem to me that I would have to completely throw out this curiosity if I were to reject the most well supported and understood findings in science. It would be like going through life with blinders on. I just couldn't do it.

It's a mystery we may never have the answer to. Curiosity didn't kill the cat, it likely saved it from its imbecilic ways.

 

[Spiderman]

Why is it easy to believe in something that has no evidence to back it?

There is evidence...I have shown you evidence of a higher power intervening in some people's lives, and miraculous healings that were investigated by medical bureaus, and you reject it and find some way to rebuttal it.

Truth is, you could be wrong!

I see it as evidence because I believe the testimony of Doctors, scientists, and eyewitnesses...I've seen documentaries where the people with miraculous healings give their testimony. I've read the writings of the Saints.

There is always that possibility they are all mistaken and delusional, but I'm not convinced of that.

You could very well be the one who is mistaken and you fail to admit it.

At least I'm willing to admit "I don't know".

You say there is no evidence...how do you know? Were you there....Can you give an explanation that will convince everyone that you know God never spoke to certain prophets, stigmatics, Saints, or healers....Can you give proof that Shaman's, Mystics, and medicine men, never connected to a spirit-world and received messages from supernatural entities...and even on rare occasions channeled healing powers from the spirit-world to the material world, causing miraculous healings? There are countless testimonies that this stuff happens...How the heck do you know it didn't?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

So the future cause causes the past effect. My intuition on that is that there is a time force that runs contrary to normal time. Normal time going from past, present, future. The contrary time effect runs from future, to present, to past.

I suppose if time is linear, then perhaps an outside of time is possible. And if we could predict the future force upon the present, and the past, then perhaps we could alter our own time scale.

Maybe we exist in a bubble of time. That if you were to step outside of the bubble you could view the whole timescale of living history.

If there is an omnipresent force in nature then it exists at all points of all times. Thats my intuition on the spooky action at a distance in quantum entanglement.

No, actually, that makes far less since than simply realizing that at QM, there is no cause/effect at all.

And with everything being probabilistic? That fits.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Oh sorry I'm going nuts, mixing you up with Audie.

Yes that's true, there are probabilities governing what happens but, all the same, QM interactions are caused and have effects. An atom absorbs a photon and as a result is promoted to an excited state, is it not? No photon no excitation. Though I suppose the process is governed by a transition probability, so you cannot say whether a given individual photon will or will not get absorbed.

But explain a bit more about the cause coming into the future of the supposed effect. I don't understand that.

At QM, everything is based on probabilities. Not cause and effect. Trying to force cause-and-effect is what seems to create the effect-before-the-cause events. But that's just an illusion.

Here, think of it this way: The number of atoms in an ordinary breath of air for a human, exceeds the total number of possible breaths on the entire planet-- by a very lot. I mention this to help illustrate how many atoms there are in ordinary things.

And at QM? There are quite a number of particles in each atom.

So. What is the aggregate behavior of trillions of particles? The average of all the probable events-- trillions upon trillions of QM events.

This is what we see at the "macro" level, where humans dwell. And the average of all those probable events is pretty good cause-and-effect.

But at the QM level? For any given individual particle, there is no cause-and-effect-- just a manifold of probability--- a "shape" in 3-space.

Notebook: This is as I, a layman, understands QM. I highly recommend you research this very fascinating subject for yourself. It's weird, not intuitive, and definitely not what we humans expect.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The event hasn't been debunked..

Countless communists, freemasons, and atheists converted over what they saw.

People think it has been debunked because nothing actually happened to the sun. It was a vision given to those people. A miracle, a sign, was promised at a time and place, and thousands of people showed up to speak about the miracle.

The prophecies of the rise of communism in Russia, the spreading of communism throughout the world, and the coming of World War 2 all came true as the children predicted.

This has also baffled scientists
Our Lady of Guadalupe ‘completely beyond' scientific explanation, says researcher

God has provided signs...people ignore it

No-- sorry, it's been debunked quite completely. Sorry to burst your bubble. Oh well.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

I can't speak for everyone.
If you are unable to be a theist, that's fine, I'm not able to be an atheist... it's virtually impossible for me to do that, because it goes against my ability to reason and use logic.

Why does gold, silver, and diamonds exist? How does a big bang create these treasures? That big bang was creative? Silver, gold, diamonds, and treasures came into existence out of nothing for no reason, at random? Or, it was created?

The only reason gold, silver or diamonds have any value is because humans gave them that value in exchange for goods. They are inherently worthless. Just because something is shiny doesn't mean its valuable.

The big bang created these pretty birds out of nothing, gave them wings and hollow bones so they can fly
View attachment 21664View attachment 21665 View attachment 21666
Who's a pretty bird?

These birds didn't always exist. I believe you need a refresher on how evolution works.

The Big Bang gave us a round world. How did it get round?

Centrifugal force.

And put the sun in the right place, so that we could all survive.

No, actually we can survive in a huge range of distance away from the sun (habitable zone)

The Big Bang gave us plants, herbs, fruits, and vegetables out of nothing.

Well, in a sense. Yes.

The Big Bang gave us water and eventually oil.

Imagine a world without oil.

Yup, all those things too.

The big bang gave us these lovely ladies,
View attachment 21667 View attachment 21668 View attachment 21669

and their beauty came forth from nothing.... well from:

Yup. again, your powers of deduction are surprisingly accurate.

View attachment 21670

chimp-like creatures that evolved from single cell organisms, that came into existence on a round planet, that came into existence out of.... not a damn thing.

None of this is possible without the Big Bang giving us the Sun... and in the right place of course...

The Big Bang has been good to us!

It has indeed. Let's say there is a one in a trillion shot that a planet like earth could support life. Guess what, there are trillions and trillions of stars and zillions more planets throughout the universe. I really don't think many people understand just how vast space is. Anyway, the improbability that you attribute to our existence is actually rather commonplace given the enormous scale we are talking about.

Now you say that it is silly to say something came out of nothing. Great. That means someone created the universe. That means there is a creator. Makes sense, right? Let's take that one step farther. Who created the creator? Since, you know something cannot come from nothing. So someone else must have created god. And that someone else was created . by someone entirely else. And so on...
Simplicity can create complexity. Giving an even more complex answer (god) to a complex question (the universe) will lead you into an infinite regression.

 

[exchemist]

At QM, everything is based on probabilities. Not cause and effect. Trying to force cause-and-effect is what seems to create the effect-before-the-cause events. But that's just an illusion.

Here, think of it this way: The number of atoms in an ordinary breath of air for a human, exceeds the total number of possible breaths on the entire planet-- by a very lot. I mention this to help illustrate how many atoms there are in ordinary things.

And at QM? There are quite a number of particles in each atom.

So. What is the aggregate behavior of trillions of particles? The average of all the probable events-- trillions upon trillions of QM events.

This is what we see at the "macro" level, where humans dwell. And the average of all those probable events is pretty good cause-and-effect.

But at the QM level? For any given individual particle, there is no cause-and-effect-- just a manifold of probability--- a "shape" in 3-space.

Notebook: This is as I, a layman, understands QM. I highly recommend you research this very fascinating subject for yourself. It's weird, not intuitive, and definitely not what we humans expect.

Thanks, I did study quantum chemistry at university, though it was a long time ago and I've forgotten most of the details! Hence my remarks about interactions between quantum entities. I take your point about QM dealing with probabilities rather than presuming deterministic behaviour at the level of individual QM entities ("wave-particles"). But to me that does mean the end of cause and effect. One simply has probable, rather than definite, effects of a given cause, surely?

 

[Ibni Abbas]

I found that the analogy for the question :


Let's take your own existence , are you always with Aallah SWT before you are being created ? .

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

There is evidence...I have shown you evidence of a higher power intervening in some people's lives, and miraculous healings that were investigated by medical bureaus, and you reject it and find some way to rebuttal it.

Where is this evidence?

Truth is, you could be wrong!

I fully admit that I could be wrong. However, I need to see evidence that I am wrong before I will be convinced that I am wrong.

I see it as evidence because I believe the testimony of Doctors, scientists, and eyewitnesses...I've seen documentaries where the people with miraculous healings give their testimony. I've read the writings of the Saints.

That would be a belief, not evidence. People can make up any story they want. Evidence needs to be independent of the person making the claim and verifiable by those who doubt it. That's how evidence works.

You say there is no evidence...how do you know? Were you there....Can you give an explanation that will convince everyone that you know God never spoke to certain prophets, stigmatics, Saints, or healers....Can you give proof that Shaman's, Mystics, and medicine men, never connected to a spirit-world and received messages from supernatural entities...and even on rare occasions channeled healing powers from the spirit-world to the material world, causing miraculous healings? There are countless testimonies that this stuff happens...How the heck do you know it didn't

?

You don't seem to understand the burden of proof. You are the one making the positive claim, so it is up to you to supply the evidence that it is true. Lacking such evidence there is no reason to accept it as true.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Thanks, I did study quantum chemistry at university, though it was a long time ago and I've forgotten most of the details! Hence my remarks about interactions between quantum entities. I take your point about QM dealing with probabilities rather than presuming deterministic behaviour at the level of individual QM entities ("wave-particles"). But to me that does mean the end of cause and effect. One simply has probable, rather than definite, effects of a given cause, surely?

It's been long enough, that I have forgotten my own incredulity, when I first realized that the "ordinary" cause-and-effect simply doesn't work at the level of QM.

It was a longish article I'd read in Scientific American, I think. But it opens up a different way of looking at the universe.

QM also answers the ancient conundrum, does the universe require a First Cause? And the answer is "no".

Which is often why people subconsciously reject the idea that cause-and-effect does not exist at the quantum level.

I've since read several articles describing QM that seem to agree with this observation.

 

[Milton Platt]

I can't speak for everyone.
If you are unable to be a theist, that's fine, I'm not able to be an atheist... it's virtually impossible for me to do that, because it goes against my ability to reason and use logic.

Why does gold, silver, and diamonds exist? How does a big bang create these treasures? That big bang was creative? Silver, gold, diamonds, and treasures came into existence out of nothing for no reason, at random? Or, it was created?

The big bang created these pretty birds out of nothing, gave them wings and hollow bones so they can fly
View attachment 21664View attachment 21665 View attachment 21666
Who's a pretty bird?

The Big Bang gave us a round world. How did it get round?

And put the sun in the right place, so that we could all survive.

The Big Bang gave us plants, herbs, fruits, and vegetables out of nothing.

The Big Bang gave us water and eventually oil.

Imagine a world without oil.

The big bang gave us these lovely ladies,
View attachment 21667 View attachment 21668 View attachment 21669

and their beauty came forth from nothing.... well from:

View attachment 21670


chimp-like creatures that evolved from single cell organisms, that came into existence on a round planet, that came into existence out of.... not a damn thing.

None of this is possible without the Big Bang giving us the Sun... and in the right place of course...

The Big Bang has been good to us!

Thoughts?
( okay, the thread was supposed to reek of ignorance and be silly.. it was to get you educated folks excited and load your guns .... I'm just saying it's easier to believe that a creator, some higher power working with the mechanisms of science, created it.... it's a lot more difficult to discover a scientific explanation.)

Your ignorance is showing........

 

[John53]

Evidence has been given many times for the existence of a spirit world.

Here is one example, Witnessed by roughly 70,000 people:
Miracle of the Sun - Wikipedia

I've studied and found that there has been lots of evidence provided to our world.

People choose to ignore it

You should research Fatima a little more and you will discover it doesn't seem so miraculous. The Virgin only appeared to the 3 children, no one else saw her. There are many and varied reports from the witnesses (evidence that eye witness testimony isn't always reliable). But the most telling thing is that no where else in the world did anyone report the sun dancing or zig zagging or approaching closely. You would think at least one person somewhere else on earth would have noticed it.

Got any other evidence? I'm very curious to see it.

 

[Spiderman]

You should research Fatima a little more and you will discover it doesn't seem so miraculous. The Virgin only appeared to the 3 children, no one else saw her. There are many and varied reports from the witnesses (evidence that eye witness testimony isn't always reliable). But the most telling thing is that no where else in the world did anyone report the sun dancing or zig zagging or approaching closely. You would think at least one person somewhere else on earth would have noticed it.

Got any other evidence? I'm very curious to see it.

of course nothing happened to the sun. It was a vision given to that crowd and promised in advance.