Why Jews don't believe in Jesus

[Eliana]

A bunch of non-Jews arguing with me over Halakha is beyond irritating and I'm about to tell them off in very strong terms, regardless of if I get banned or not.

I really don't give a rats you-know-what if my religious views offend the tender sensibilities of other users who think they are all-inclusive citizens of the world. Be offended, go cry, I don't care. Your whining, complaining and protestations are a waste of your energy. If you are not a Halakha observant Jew then your opinion on Jewish law is utterly irrelevant on a cosmic scale to me. If it sticks in your craw that badly that you can't let it go then buzz off and haunt another thread, because I'm not moveable on any issue regarding Halakha or the Torah.

If other people want to consider Messianics, non-Orthodox or whatever to be Jewish then they are free to do that. I have never proposed making it illegal, I have never proposed doing anything to them or even mistreating them. I don't care what other people believe, go live your lives and stop worrying what others believe in.

I'm starting to wonder if there is any moderation on this forum as I consider this now to be harassment.

The subject of this thread is why Jews don't believe in Jesus. It isn't Halakha, it isn't who is or isn't a Jew according to Halakha, it isn't Hebrew entomology.

 

[dybmh]

Scholars. Take it up with them.

I've noticed that when online evangelists speak like this about "scholars", it's because:

• They don't know the evidence the scholar is using
• They don't understand the reasons that the scholar is using to produce their conclusions
• They don't know the counter-arguments
• They are religiously devoted to "scholarship" as if it is a god. Like a greek god. Gnostia? Apollo?

 

[dybmh]

A bunch of non-Jews arguing with me over Halakha is beyond irritating and I'm about to tell them off in very strong terms, regardless of if I get banned or not.

I love it, but, please, it would be disappointing to me and others if you get banned.

I'm not moveable on any issue regarding Halakha or the Torah.

B"H. Amein V'Amein.

I'm starting to wonder if there is any moderation on this forum as I consider this now to be harassment.

Moderation errs on the side of leniency here. It needs to be clearly obviously intentional harassment in order to "guarantee" staff involvement. "Guarantee" is in quotes, because, the staff here are all volunteer. Nothing is "guaranteed" here. But the staff here is very-very good. Highly responsive.

There are two ways to get the staff's attention. There is a "report" link below every post. If you click on that, a little dialogue box opens. You can type as much as you wish in that dialogue box. It will expand to accommodate the text. There is also a special area of the forum called "Site Feedback" ( SF ) - LINK. In site feedback the threads are private. You can only see your own threads, the ones you create there. In Site-Feedback, you can create a thread with your concerns and the staff will see it and respond ( usually ). Again, they're volunteers, nothing is guaranteed, but the staff here is very good.

The subject of this thread is why Jews don't believe in Jesus. It isn't Halakha, it isn't who is or isn't a Jew according to Halakha, it isn't Hebrew entomology.

The staff here, in general, is lenient on thread derailment. However, they may police your threads more strictly of you make a special request in Site-Feedback. I don't know, but, it can't hurt to ask.

 

[Kenny]

"Escape from Jesus: One Man's Search for a Meaningful Judaism " by Shlomoh Sherman

https://www.amazon.com/Escape-Jesus-Search-Meaningful-Judaism/dp/0915474034

Yes… even Kings left their Jewish heritage as the words penned by the prophet Ezekiel showed. But heaven and earth will pass away but his word will never pass away.

 

[dybmh]

For example in 1 John 3:7-10 word αμαρτια (hamartia) is translated sin. But, the meaning seems to be:

1a) to be without a share in
1b) to miss the mark
1c) to err, be mistaken
1d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong
1e) to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin
2) that which is done wrong, sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act
3) collectively, the complex or aggregate of sins committed either by a single person or by many

...Whoever is born of God doesn’t commit sin, because his seed remains in him, and he can’t sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn’t do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn’t love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

Miss the mark could be a good translation, but, it is not necessary clear what it means to miss the mark. I think it means to reject God, or to be apart from God, because as the 1 John 3:7-10 shows, "Whoever is born of God doesn’t commit sin, because his seed remains in him".

Nice. Thank you. "Miss the mark" is usually how the word "Chait" is translated. The phonics, pronunciation, of the word syncs up nicely with the Greek: hamartia. "Ch" transliterated is the semetic restricted "H" sound. I often see non-Jews transliterate it as "Kh". I describe it as a cat coughing up a hairball.

Here's the first result from a google-search.

The other thing I noticed in your word-study? All the definitions excluding the last one can be described as "oblivious"? 1 John 3 seems to be recognizing this, and and indicating that "Born of God" entails a revelation. " ... In this the children of God are revealed ... " Revelation prohibits oblivious in this case. In America, not sure where you are, we have an expression for this: "You can't uncheck that box". Or. "You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube." Or. "What's done is done." The verse is saying, once God is truly revealed, one can no longer be oblivious to it. Agreed?

Question: How does one reconcile 1 John 3:7-10 with 1 John 1:8? Who are the children of God? ( I haven't read 1 John, btw )

​

1 John 1:8 ( NWT )​

​

If we make the statement, “We have no sin,” we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us.​

​

1 John 3:7-10 ( NWT )​

​

Little children, let no one mislead you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as that one is righteous. The one who practices sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, to break up the works of the Devil. Everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin or His seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, for he has been born from God. The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Whoever does not practice righteousness does not originate with God, nor does the one who does not love his brother.​

Looking at them side by side, I think I know the answer. But I'm interested in your thoughts and feelings on this.

 

[dybmh]

But heaven and earth will pass away but his word will never pass away.

Wait. Something's not right about this. Heaven and Earth are God's Words.

Gen 1:8 "And God called the expanse Heaven, and it was evening, and it was morning, a second day."

Gen 1:10 "And God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas, and God saw that it was good."

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Jews do believe in Jesus.

If she would say “Why most Jews don’t believe in Jesus” - I would wholeheartedly agree.

Seriously?

"Jews do believe in Jesus" much like "Christians do practice snake handling."

 

[wellwisher]

Law is connected to the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which was Satan's tree. Law is from Satan and not from God. God never wanted Adam and Eve to choose law or eat of that tree. Why are you still eating? He wanted them to eat of the tree of life; natural human instinct.

Law is what caused a decline in humanity; loss of paradise and death. Jesus was about superseding law, via love and faith in an inner voice of the Spirit; true and not a lie. The goal was a return to innocence; less ye be as children. Through law comes the knowledge of evil. Evil; sin, taking opportunity through the law produces evil of every kind. Law games the natural brain and lead to chaos.

The Jews are still in Exile; via Israel, but not in Christian Countries, where Jesus has a protecting hand.

There were twelve tribes of Israel with Judah one of the twelve. It appears the other eleven tribes may be among the Christians with some also sprinkled among all the nations. The Old law separates you from God as it did Adam and Eve due to its connection to Satan. Prestige is important to the outer man, but God appears via the inner man. The ego is not the way to God. Choose the inner self.

 

[Dimi95]

I've noticed that when online evangelists speak like this about "scholars", it's because:

• They don't know the evidence the scholar is using
• They don't understand the reasons that the scholar is using to produce their conclusions
• They don't know the counter-arguments
• They are religiously devoted to "scholarship" as if it is a god. Like a greek god. Gnostia? Apollo?

View attachment 94913

-We know pretty much of the evidence the scholars are using.To be a scholar of the NT means that you have to follow some criteria of History.That's what Historians do over time.
Some Historians are experts of the NT , some of something else.Their criteria is oftenly the same , but sometimes it changes depending on the hypothesis and the evidence surrounding it.
The only difference is some know more and some know less.

-We understand perfectly what kind of conclusions do they make and how they get to them.We find many claims to be false,especially when we see arguments suggesting bias.That's the only category that these 'scholars' belong to.
Althrough some are religious , some are not..

There is no connection between Hellenism and Christianity.
Hellenism itself is not a belief system.It is the culture of the people who inherited the Land surrounding the Aegan sea.
Belief in God was not the most important topic by that group of people.It's not like all of these people went to Judea and planned all of this.
Christianity came to this land with the Early Church.
We can even question these days the nativity of the author of Luke.
Luke may be Luka or Lukas , which is a common name in these lands and it is not a Jewish name.
Luke just wrote the story and the eye-witness of some of the Apostoles or probably Mary.
It is most probably that Mary but we don't have enough evidence to say that Luke was informed by Mary alone.

There is nothing religious in what i wrote yet most here(you included) tend to acuse for some kind of evangelism and give some absurd titles , while only matter of History is discussed here.

If you knew something about Orthodox Christianity , then you would know that it is not oriented towards evangelism.
Evangelism is a Protestant thing and is simply not what it is within Orthodox community.

It is all the same to me what claims do you all make , as long as they can be proven false , they don't matter.

 

[Kenny]

A bunch of non-Jews arguing with me over Halakha is beyond irritating and I'm about to tell them off in very strong terms, regardless of if I get banned or not.

I really don't give a rats you-know-what if my religious views offend the tender sensibilities of other users who think they are all-inclusive citizens of the world. Be offended, go cry, I don't care. Your whining, complaining and protestations are a waste of your energy. If you are not a Halakha observant Jew then your opinion on Jewish law is utterly irrelevant on a cosmic scale to me. If it sticks in your craw that badly that you can't let it go then buzz off and haunt another thread, because I'm not moveable on any issue regarding Halakha or the Torah.

If other people want to consider Messianics, non-Orthodox or whatever to be Jewish then they are free to do that. I have never proposed making it illegal, I have never proposed doing anything to them or even mistreating them. I don't care what other people believe, go live your lives and stop worrying what others believe in.

I'm starting to wonder if there is any moderation on this forum as I consider this now to be harassment.

The subject of this thread is why Jews don't believe in Jesus. It isn't Halakha, it isn't who is or isn't a Jew according to Halakha, it isn't Hebrew entomology.

I think the problem is that this is a debate forum and people have strong viewpoints.

And since your standard is “only Jewish people have a correct perspective” then all I have to offer is:

 

[Kenny]

Wait. Something's not right about this. Heaven and Earth are God's Words.

Gen 1:8 "And God called the expanse Heaven, and it was evening, and it was morning, a second day."

Gen 1:10 "And God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas, and God saw that it was good."

I think what is wrong is what you are trying to say with what I said and what I meant. All I was saying is that our opinions will pass away but His word will be forever true.

.

 

[Kenny]

Seriously?

"Jews do believe in Jesus" much like "Christians do practice snake handling."

I know you are trying to make a point… I’m just not clear on what. Maybe it is more like a remnant?

 

[dybmh]

our opinions will pass away but His word will be forever true.

Our opinions will not pass away if they are consistent and true.

 

[dybmh]

@Kenny ,

Was that happy laughter? Or mocking laughter? Did I make you happy because it's an intriguing / surprising spin on what you wrote, or, do you think I'm being foolish and you're laughing at me. I hope it's the former. But I'm not going to report you for the latter.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I know you are trying to make a point… I’m just not clear on what. Maybe it is more like a remnant?

The statement "Jews do believe in Jesus" strikes me as (intentionally?) misleading. Such a statement would generally be understood as conveying either:

• "all (or most) Jews believe in Jesus" or
• "Jews typically (or generally) believe in Jesus."

Conversely, it is no way equivalent to "some Jews believe in Jesus."

If one is to believe Wikipedia ...

As of 2012, Messianic population estimates were between 175,000 and 250,000 members in the United States, between 10,000 and 20,000 members in Israel, and an estimated total worldwide membership of 350,000.​

When compared to a Jewish population of 6.3 million in the United States and 15.7 worldwide, this amounts to roughly 4% and 2% respectively. Messianic Judaism is little more than an aberration.

 

[Kenny]

@Kenny ,

Was that happy laughter? Or mocking laughter? Did I make you happy because it's an intriguing / surprising spin on what you wrote, or, do you think I'm being foolish and you're laughing at me. I hope it's the former. But I'm not going to report you for the latter.

It was a genuine happy laugh.

But it did make me think, since I have been called on it before, if people have me put into a box and don’t realize that people are more complex. When I laugh… I am laughing or chuckling. I can laugh at myself and when people pull one on me, I laugh.

 

[Balthazzar]

Yes… even Kings left their Jewish heritage as the words penned by the prophet Ezekiel showed. But heaven and earth will pass away but his word will never pass away.

Word meaning? Divine expression? Substance, life essence, purpose, Truth, reality? I doubt it's speaking about a few letters marked in a series of texts, but this isn't to suggest they aren't associated with the logos, and/or inspired by.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I’m sure we wouldn’t… but look at the OP… “ Why Jews don't believe in Jesus” - my point is not that we will never agree about the Jewish Jesus but just that her point is wrong. Jews do believe in Jesus.

If she would say “Why most Jews don’t believe in Jesus” - I would wholeheartedly agree. There are Jews that don’t believe in God as there are probably Jews who are Buddhists.

I know there are Jews who believe in Jesus because I've met some of them, and I have no reason to assume they are apostates just because another Jewish person on an internet forum firmly insists they are. Of course, we're all entitled to our own personal opinions, but at the end of the day, they are just that: opinions. Also, Rule 8 of this forum prohibits us from stating our personal religious beliefs as definitive facts in any case. So there's that to consider, too.

 

[Balthazzar]

Maybe they believe in God and view Jesus to be someone who branched from their tree, which would make him less authoritive to their way than Jesus would be. Holding to what Jesus taught, I wouldn't necessarily disagree. Holding true to true, I would be required to honor truth. If anyone ever claims to be Jesus, he would be denied by me, whether true or not. Not to place anyone on a pedestal, there's enough other black sheep to tend to, but he remains one of my teachers and I remain a friend. He stated to believe no one if ever, so I'll hold true to my teachers wishes as it pertains to what he wished for himself. There's far too many deceitful people looking for cred to acknowledge only one worth listening to. There are many teachers worth listening to, but I'll claim only one as Jesus.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The Messiah will establish world peace and rule justly, Jesus did not do this..

..yet !

The Messiah will rule when the Torah is written in everyone's heart and all people acknowledge Hashem as G-d, Jesus did not do this.

..yet !

It wasn't to be .. the Sanhedrin (in Jerusalem) decided that His authority was a threat to them.
G-d will return His Messiah at an appointed time.