Why Jews don't believe in Jesus

[muhammad_isa]

Technically they are Jewish apostates for rejecting halakha..

What is the most important commandment of all?
Do you think that G-d does not know what is in the minds of His creation?

Argumentum ad populum

No .. I'm not saying that they are necessarily correct creeds because they are populous.
..but I am saying that it is significant, that so many people find them credible.

G-d made it clear that the Torah was binding and eternal, he said the world would end before a single letter would be altered..

..that's OK if you believe that .. but it's a collection of ancient Scriptures .. not one revelation.

..Since religious groups (Christians and Muslims namely) claim otherwise, they are to be rejected regardless of who or how many believe it.

G-d guides whomsoever He wills, and sends astray whomsoever He wills.
Scripture exists for mankind, and not G-d.

He has given us intelligence to use .. and not to be dogmatic and tribal.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Considering that they pretty much exclude each other, we don't have the option of doubting that at least one of the two is indeed based on falsehood..

No not based on falsehood. The base is identical.
The first commandment is "You shall not take any other than me (G-d) as Lord". (or words to that effect)
It is common to Christianity and Judaism.

..and the Islamic faith rests on the same premise.
As we can view Catholic and Protestant share the same base (Christianity), similarly, all 3 major Abrahamic religions share the same base .. belief in the G-d of Abraham.

 

[LuisDantas]

No not based on falsehood. The base is identical.

By a sufficiently limited idea of base, sure.

The first commandment is "You shall not take any other than me (G-d) as Lord". (or words to that effect)
It is common to Christianity and Judaism.

Both of which Islam states in no uncertain terms to be misguided beyond recovery.

..and the Islamic faith rests on the same premise.
As we can view Catholic and Protestant share the same base (Christianity), similarly, all 3 major Abrahamic religions share the same base .. belief in the G-d of Abraham.

And that really means nothing. Nothing at all, beyond making Muslims confused about the role of god-belief in religion and in life generally.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Both of which Islam states in no uncertain terms to be misguided..

Not at all .. Islam teaches that 'the people of the book' are co-brothers and sisters.
i.e. believers

Naturally, mankind splits their religion/beliefs on a sectarian/tribal agenda, for several reasons.
1. tribal allegiance is a strong force for perceived self-preservation
2. we are often proud, and claim to know it all
3. we don't all share the same intention
4. political motivation
...

 

[Eliana]

What is the most important commandment of all?
Do you think that G-d does not know what is in the minds of His creation?

All his commandments are important or he wouldn't have issued them.

No .. I'm not saying that they are necessarily correct creeds because they are populous.
..but I am saying that it is significant, that so many people find them credible.

What's the difference? You're just re-phrasing the same fallacy. There are 1.2 billion Hindu's in the world, does that mean it's also correct? Obviously Hinduism and Judaism can't both be correct given their dramatically opposing theology.

..that's OK if you believe that .. but it's a collection of ancient Scriptures .. not one revelation.

There is one revelation... the Torah. There are no others and we know this because G-d said so.

G-d guides whomsoever He wills, and sends astray whomsoever He wills.
Scripture exists for mankind, and not G-d.

Every person has the option to do good or evil. This is not my opinion this is what HaShem has said himself. G-d does not send people astray otherwise they cannot be held accountable for their actions.

He has given us intelligence to use .. and not to be dogmatic and tribal.

Jews do not have the option to pick and choose what we follow. G-d said that we are to keep his commandments forever and he did not put an expiration date on this command.

Binding

Eternal

Everlasting

 

[metis]

In my Christian congregation, we were taught that the original sin occurred in the garden, the punishment for which was visited on the sinners and their progeny.

But we don't do that in real life-- at least I hope we don't.

Originally, this punishment was limited to the loss of paradise and to mortal status, but this evolved to include the loss of one's soul and the need for redemption to avoid perdition, and this we have the imagery of the lamb and the cleansing blood of Christ.

So, a newly borne child is punished for what Mom & Dad and Grandma & Grandma did? So, If Grampa committed murder, we should put the baby on trial for murder?

We would never call anything in the Bible wrong or error for obvious reasons.

Yes, I know.

We also never called contradictory scripture that.

In theology, we usually call them "variants".

Baptism is a variant of the mikvah, but the latter is viewed as a spiritual cleansing and an acceptance into Judaism that may be repeated many times in one's life. It is not a one and out ritual.

 

[metis]

It's official doctrine, regardless of the bad theology.

IX. Of Original or Birth-Sin.

Original sin standeth not in the following of Adam, (as the Pelagians do vainly talk but it is the fault and corruption of the Nature of every man, that naturally is engendered of the offspring of Adam; whereby man is very far gone from original righteousness, and is of his own nature inclined to evil, so that the flesh lusteth always contrary to the Spirit; and therefore in every person born into this world, it deserveth God's wrath and damnation. And this infection of nature doth remain, yea in them that are regenerated; whereby the lust of the flesh, called in Greek, φρονημα σαρκος, (which some do expound the wisdom, some sensuality, some the affection, some the desire, of the flesh), is not subject to the Law of God. And although there is no condemnation for them that believe and are baptized; yet the Apostle doth confess, that concupiscence and lust hath of itself the nature of sin.

Articles of Religion — Center for Reformation Anglicanism

www.anglicanism.info

Also the conflation of man with person and the the union of state and church leads to a loss of legal status re natural rights.

There are differing opinions on this within some denominations. Even within Catholicism, there's been some debate on this, although not going so far as denying the basic teaching as you posted above.

 

[muhammad_isa]

What's the difference? You're just re-phrasing the same fallacy. There are 1.2 billion Hindu's in the world..

Change the subject, why don't you..
We are discussing Abrahamic religion .. Judaism is not unique, any more than the other two.

There is one revelation... the Torah. There are no others and we know this because G-d said so.

..the modern scholarly consensus rejects Mosaic authorship, and affirms that the Torah has multiple authors and that its composition took place over centuries.
The Torah - Wikipedia

Every person has the option to do good or evil. This is not my opinion this is what HaShem has said himself. G-d does not send people astray otherwise they cannot be held accountable for their actions.

..but G-d is not a person, per se.
Our souls belong to Him .. our intentions and deeds affect us .. the human mind is complex,
and G-d is "closer to us than our jugular vein".

Jews do not have the option to pick and choose what we follow. G-d said that we are to keep his commandments forever and he did not put an expiration date on this command.

A strong faith is good .. extreme beliefs are not.
What do I mean by extreme? .. eg. that 613 mitzvots is more important than our intentions
i.e. what is in our hearts

 

[Eliana]

Change the subject, why don't you..
We are discussing Abrahamic religion .. Judaism is not unique, any more than the other two.

You're the one who brought up the subject not I, so if you don't like my answer then perhaps you shouldn't have... "why don't you".

..the modern scholarly consensus rejects Mosaic authorship, and affirms that the Torah has multiple authors and that its composition took place over centuries.
The Torah - Wikipedia

I'm an Orthodox Jew and I do not care what wikipedia says. Once I stop believing in the divinity of the Torah then that's kind'a the end of the road. I am well aware that Islam teaches the Torah and the Christian bible are corrupted or whatever. Guess what? I don't give a rats behind because I think Islam, like Christianity, is a load of nonsense and I don't believe in it. There's a lot of "modern scholarly consensus" on Islam that isn't very flattering that I'm sure you would wave away... because you're a Muslim and you DO believe in it, which is your prerogative.

Even though I have no regard whatsoever for Christianity or Islam, I will still defend the right of Christians and Muslims to believe as they wish. At least for as long as they don't plan to kill me anyway.

..but G-d is not a person, per se.
Our souls belong to Him .. our intentions and deeds affect us .. the human mind is complex,
and G-d is "closer to us than our jugular vein".

That's nice. I don't care what the Quran says one iota more then I care what the Christian bible says. The only thing we are in agreement on is HaShem is not a man.

A strong faith is good .. extreme beliefs are not.
What do I mean by extreme? .. eg. that 613 mitzvots is more important than our intentions
i.e. what is in our hearts

I am not extreme. If I were I'd be strapping bombs to myself and blowing up all the non-believers, oppressing their human rights and freedoms or otherwise inflicting harm and distress on non-Jews. That is what extreme is.

Your comment also shows you don't know much about Judaism. The Torah is supposed to be inscribed on our hearts and we in fact teach that after the Messiah arrives this will be the case for mankind. In other words HaShem's word, the Torah, IS what is supposed to be in our hearts. Our intentions supposed to be to follow it, they are not separate.

 

[Spice]

Is there scripture where it is said directly what sin means? If it is not directly said, it can be vague, because people can then make interpretations and get different meanings and disputes on what it truly means. But, that doesn't mean that some people could not have clear understanding, only that there can be different ideas and it may be difficult for some to find the correct meaning.

James 4:17 Whoever knows what is right to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

I think this covers things pretty well, but I find all of the Letter of James well voiced.

 

[paarsurrey]

Why Jews don't believe in Jesus

Jews of our time can never believe in Christian-Jesus as Christianity people make "Jesus-god" and or literal/physical "son of god" which he never was.
Right?

Regards

 

[InChrist]

Argumentum ad populum

G-d made it clear that the Torah was binding and eternal, he said the world would end before a single letter would be altered. HaShem said that he does not change his mind nor reverse himself. He stated his covenants are binding, eternal and unchangeable. No Jew will ever accept any theological position which postulates that the Torah has been changed in the slightest, because this contradicts the express stated words of G-d. Since religious groups (Christians and Muslims namely) claim otherwise, they are to be rejected regardless of who or how many believe it.

And Jesus Himself agreed and said….

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'm an Orthodox Jew and I do not care what wikipedia says..

Well, I'm an Orthodox Muslim, and I do care (what wikipedia says).
Making a claim (that the Torah was revealed as one faultless revelation) requires evidence,
particularly if there is good reason to believe otherwise.

I don't care what the Quran says one iota more then I care what the Christian bible says..

There seems to be a lot that you don't care about..

I am not extreme..

Never claimed you were..

In other words HaShem's word, the Torah, IS what is supposed to be in our hearts..

What is that supposed to mean?
Do you wish for your fellow mankind, that which you wish for yourselves?

If so, why is usury disallowed between Jewish folk, but allowed between a Jew and a non-Jew?

Our intentions supposed to be to follow it, they are not separate.

..to follow it blindly, without understanding it?

 

[Eliana]

And Jesus Himself agreed and said….

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18

Do you keep kosher? Work on Shabbat?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

And Jesus Himself agreed and said….

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18

According to the Bible, Jesus also said, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22:37-40

 

[Eliana]

Well, I'm an Orthodox Muslim, and I do care (what wikipedia says).
Making a claim (that the Torah was revealed as one faultless revelation) requires evidence,
particularly if there is good reason to believe otherwise.

I didn't know wikipedia was a part of scripture in Islam.

But the Quran is perfectly fine to take on faith right? Dude, I have never claimed my beliefs could be proved with evidence in a scientific sense. There is not a religion on earth that can do so, otherwise everyone would be of that faith group. Have a look in the mirror.

There seems to be a lot that you don't care about..

I, as a Jew, don't care about non-Jewish scriptures. This shocks people? Your problem is Islam is the soup you swim in so you think the rules of evidence are different for yourself then anyone else.

Never claimed you were..

Is this you?

A strong faith is good .. extreme beliefs are not.
What do I mean by extreme? .. eg. that 613 mitzvots is more important than our intentions
i.e. what is in our hearts

What is that supposed to mean?
Do you wish for your fellow mankind, that which you wish for yourselves?

If so, why is usury disallowed between Jewish folk, but allowed between a Jew and a non-Jew?

Leviticus 19:17 - 18
17 "You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your fellow, but you shall not bear a sin on his account. 18 "You shall neither take revenge from nor bear a grudge against the members of your people; you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the L-rd."

We are expressly commanded to love our neighbours, not just other Jews. I have never even implied I thought otherwise.

Exodus 22:24 "When you lend money to my people, to the poor person [who is] with you, you shall not behave toward him as a lender; you shall not impose interest upon him."

Leviticus 25:35 "If your brother becomes destitute and his hand falters beside you, you shall support him [whether] a convert or a resident, so that he can live with you."

The highlighted portions mean even if the person I'm lending to is not Jewish I cannot charge interest if they're poor. We also aren't allowed to charge interest to non-Jews who were residents of Israel. We were only allowed to charge interest to foreigners as in resident of other nations, and even then the above laws with regards to the poor still apply. The reason for this is interest, especially excessive interest leads to societal ruin. We are only responsible for our own citizens and fellow Jews and are allowed to charge interest as noted above as a legitimate business. On top of all that we aren't allowed to make said interest burdensome.

It pays to actually read the book you're criticizing.

..to follow it blindly, without understanding it?

As opposed to you who follows the Quran after rigorous study and much critical thinking. Not at all because you were likely born and raised in it.

Physician, heal thyself. (Your welcome, Christians)

 

[InChrist]

Do you keep kosher? Work on Shabbat?

No, I don’t since I’m not Jewish. These dietary law and especially the Sabbath were specifically for the nation of Israel …


Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. 14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever…
Exodus 31:13-17

 

[InChrist]

According to the Bible, Jesus also said, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22:37-40

Yes, Jesus said…

You shall love the Lord our God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
Matthew 22:37-40

 

[Eliana]

Yes, Jesus said…

You shall love the Lord our God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
Matthew 22:37-40

Love your neighbour isn't one of the 10 commandments, it's Leviticus 19:18.

No, I don’t since I’m not Jewish. These dietary law and especially the Sabbath were specifically for the nation of Israel …


Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. 14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever…
Exodus 31:13-17

Well why not? I thought Jesus was Jewish.

 

[InChrist]

Love your neighbour isn't one of the 10 commandments, it's Leviticus 19:18.



Well why not? I thought Jesus was Jewish.

I think one major thing the law reveals is that no one is capable of keeping all the commandments all the time. Everyone falls short, except Jesus didn’t. He fulfilled the Law-all the laws; dietary, moral on behalf of all humanity, Jews an non-Jews.
So I trust and rest in His grace and righteousness.