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Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
While that is certainly true, it cuts both ways. It may at least as easily serve as an argument against allowing parents to raise their children too unaware of the general trends of their society, including cultural and religious diversity.
I said earlier somewhere that diversity is a necessity in our current society. Religion can no longer be as isolationist or as myopic cosmically as it once was. The rampant decline in church membership is ample evidence that such practices aren't faring well. But I think that one can be reared within a particular religious framework and still have an understanding that spiritual formation can legitimately occur in other frameworks.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Yep, sounds like the type of thoroughly confused people who often end up finding religion. Easily confused people often need the consistency and certainty of dogmatic rules.
I don't think that "dogmatic rules" are universal or necessarily important in religion. They certainly aren't in mine. And they certainly have no place in the general endeavor of spiritual formation. Yes, spiritual disciplines are necessary to good spiritual formation, with the caveat that such disciplines liberate and do not hinder the practitioner.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Belief in the Divine is a placement of value on the universe.

Circumcision is a tangible, physical reminder of a covenantal relationship. the covenant values a relationship beyond friendship.

Prayer places a premium, or value, on connecting with our truest self.

Saints ascribe worth to individuals who more fully reflect the spiritual values that are inculcated.

Reincarnation places a value on the human soul, such that the soul is not destroyed, but further developed.

Rebirth -- see above.

Afterlife -- see above.

Spirit world places a value on the event-horizon of the human spirit.

Mediumship values the intuitive processes that connect us more deeply with the world around us.

Dietary laws -- see "circumcision."

Proselytism places a value on others, and on the deep community that may be formed through the inclusion of others, such that all individuals benefit from the connection.

Belief in divinely-inspired texts places a value on the stories, myths, lore, poetry, music, culture, and other creative processes as reflective of the community that produces and holds them.

Shatnez law -- see "circumcision" and "dietary law."

Mantras value thought-forms as highly-intuitive means to access our truest selves.

Celibacy values the relationships between clergy and community, and between clergy and God.

Marriage values the spiritual aspect of two people -- not only "living together," but becoming spiritually "one flesh." It values the deep relationship wherein both individuals benefit from each other, thus more fully reflecting the Divine.

I do not doubt that from each religious aspect a value can be drawn. That is not what i was talking about though. The issue is that you equate religion with values.

How is any of these equal to values in themselves?

EDIT: Just to complement -
What you have done can be done with any action whatsoever. A value can be drawn from any action whatsoever.
 
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Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
I don't think that "dogmatic rules" are universal or necessarily important in religion.

Of course not. They just seem to have a tendency to be important to the type of religion that attracts confused and damaged people. Although, personally, I'd much rather have them addicted to dogma and self-righteousness than to a crack pipe.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I disagree. Spiritual formation is one of those things that is fundamental to the identity of a person, but not religious beliefs. Religious beliefs are merely structures for enabling spiritual formation.

How would you enable spiritual formation without religious beliefs?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Since spiritual formation is generally more an experiential process than an intellectual encounter, I'd have to say that Wikipedia isn't real helpful here.

He didn't mention they wanted 'spiritual formation' ( whatever that means ).
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I do not doubt that from each religious aspect a value can be drawn. That is not what i was talking about though. The issue is that you equate religion with values.

How is any of these equal to values in themselves?

EDIT: Just to complement -
What you have done can be done with any action whatsoever. A value can be drawn from any action whatsoever.
But there's a difference. The acts have value, but at a more basic level, it's the acts, themselves, that seek to espouse, encourage, inculcate and foster an awareness of our own worth, especially as that worth relates to others and to the universe. In other words: the chief aim of religion is to instill worth. Just as I claimed.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Of course not. They just seem to have a tendency to be important to the type of religion that attracts confused and damaged people. Although, personally, I'd much rather have them addicted to dogma and self-righteousness than to a crack pipe.
Could be that those religions are simply the ones that are populated by the most confused and damaged people to begin with, though.

Any addiction is harmful.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
How would you enable spiritual formation without religious beliefs?
I didn't say I would. What I said was that religious beliefs are structures for enabling spiritual formation. But any general religious structure -- Xy, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc. -- can be used to enable spiritual formation just as readily as any other.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
He didn't mention they wanted 'spiritual formation' ( whatever that means ).
If you don't know what it means, then you don't really have any business in this argument.

Spiritual formation (or discovering our full worth as individuals-in-community) is the aim of religion. So, if one wants to discover which religion is "right" for her or him (and I don't think it's a matter of "right" or "wrong," but a matter of compatibility) one needs to interface on an experiential, not intellectual level. Wikipedia simply can't provide that.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
But there's a difference. The acts have value, but at a more basic level, it's the acts, themselves, that seek to espouse, encourage, inculcate and foster an awareness of our own worth, especially as that worth relates to others and to the universe. In other words: the chief aim of religion is to instill worth. Just as I claimed.

Hold on.
That makes no sense.
Considering that, to you, religion is equal to values, your sentence would mean: the chief aim of values is to instill worth.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Raising a kid with religion does not necessarily mean they are indoctrinated. Raising a kid without religion does not necessarily mean they are not indoctrinated.

Correct, which is why the issue is indoctrination, which is what raising a kid with religion means in 90% of cases.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
If you don't know what it means, then you don't really have any business in this argument.

How rude of you. :rolleyes:

Spiritual formation (or discovering our full worth as individuals-in-community) is the aim of religion. So, if one wants to discover which religion is "right" for her or him (and I don't think it's a matter of "right" or "wrong," but a matter of compatibility) one needs to interface on an experiential, not intellectual level. Wikipedia simply can't provide that.

There is no mention of 'discovering full worth as individuals-in-community' on that post.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I disagree. Spiritual formation is one of those things that is fundamental to the identity of a person, but not religious beliefs. Religious beliefs are merely structures for enabling spiritual formation.

I didn't say I would. What I said was that religious beliefs are structures for enabling spiritual formation. But any general religious structure -- Xy, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc. -- can be used to enable spiritual formation just as readily as any other.

You said spiritual formation is fundamental to the identity of a person, but religious beliefs aren't. Hence, you're saying religious beliefs are not necessary for spiritual formation. So, how would you enable spiritual formation without religious beliefs?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Nope, it defines it in the most accurate way.
If I see someone being murdered, the fact that I can't prove it doesn't matter in the slightest. To assert this is to make the statement "it is a fact" essentially meaningless. It is to assert that what is true, what is factual, depends on our ability to demonstrate it to other observers. Thus, in the absence of cognizers capable of "proofs" truth doesn't exist. Facts don't exist. What is a fact becomes not only contingent upon an individual both observing it in some sense but also whether they can demonstrate it in some nebulous way (you haven't defined what you mean by proof in any formal way and have claimed you have proved things despite convincing, it appears, no one but yourself which would seem to indicate that you are subjectively determining what qualifies as proof on a case by case basis). Perhaps if you defined "prove" more formally then you've have a more usable definition. As is, you've erased any meaning from fact and relied entirely on your subjective and self-defeating "definition" (self-defeating because you haven't proved it sufficiently for anybody but you, the person who believed it to begin with, and thus either proof is meaningless and this renders all facts as meaningless to, or you can't prove it and it isn't therefore a fact according to your definition).
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
As someone who often makes the second post in threads, I concur.
Except in this case, Christine's answer contains a number of errors that have already been addressed by numerous posters, and ironically, errors that are subsequently repeated by still other posters.

This thread is a good example of how quickly people start flailing irrationally as soon as they think you're hunting their sacred cows- and one's religion, and the parenting of one's children, are sacred cows if anything are. There isn't much to debate here; from an objective point of view, religious indoctrination of young children gains nothing and loses something, and is thus not preferable, and is probably marginally unethical. But in the grand scheme of things, there are much worse evils out there than attempting to deny your child intellectual and religious autonomy.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
If you don't know what it means, then you don't really have any business in this argument.

Um...wouldn't it be more helpful to just explain what it is?

Spiritual formation (or discovering our full worth as individuals-in-community) is the aim of religion. So, if one wants to discover which religion is "right" for her or him (and I don't think it's a matter of "right" or "wrong," but a matter of compatibility) one needs to interface on an experiential, not intellectual level. Wikipedia simply can't provide that.

I'd just call it discovering our full worth as individuals-in-community, rather than spiritual formation. "Spiritual formation" has other connotations.

What if no religion is right for the person? Why can't the child experience the religions later without having them forced on him/her?
 
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