Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing

[Curious George]

If you're going to make assumptions about the motivations of pageant parents and paint them all with the same broad brush, can I do the same for religious parents?

He's not making assumptions, you suggested the information he addressed.

If he had made the blanket statement that child beauty pageants were immoral then you might have an argument.

 

[Me Myself]

Teaching your child something or encouraging them down a particular path is normal and pretty much unavoidable. Nor, to be honest, do I see much benefit in attempting to avoid doing so.

The problem is the equation of any sort of religious teaching with "indoctrination" and "brainwashing". Those words are meant to imply something above and beyond normal behavior.

I'm reading a novel called "The Violent Bear it Away" about an infant that was kidnapped by a crazy great-uncle who believed that he was a prophet of God, and that he needed to raise up a boy to take his place as prophet. This child was raised in complete isolation, being taught only the great-uncle's version of events, form of religious conviction, and method of viewing the world. This child was brainwashed, truly indoctrinated.

Now, you guys are all perfectly free to water down the term, and utilize it for the average family that takes their kid to church and has them pray before going to bed, but you shouldn't expect everyone to agree with your agenda-laden redefinition.

As for me, I'll continue to reserve the terms "brainwashing" and "indoctrination" for cases that truly call for it-- for exceptional occurrences, and not normal child-rearing.

Agreed.

I find it they just dont want specific beliefs to be taught, while others are okay.

 

[Magic Man]

By the oxford dictionary standards, they would be.

Whether or not that's true, they're not indoctrination. If they're indoctrination, then all teaching is, meaning it's a synonym for "teaching", and therefore useless.

They are not any less indoctrination than simply telling them God hears them pray.

I disagree.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Teaching your child something or encouraging them down a particular path is normal and pretty much unavoidable. Nor, to be honest, do I see much benefit in attempting to avoid doing so.

The problem is the equation of any sort of religious teaching with "indoctrination" and "brainwashing". Those words are meant to imply something above and beyond normal behavior.

I'm reading a novel called "The Violent Bear it Away" about an infant that was kidnapped by a crazy great-uncle who believed that he was a prophet of God, and that he needed to raise up a boy to take his place as prophet. This child was raised in complete isolation, being taught only the great-uncle's version of events, form of religious conviction, and method of viewing the world. This child was brainwashed, truly indoctrinated.

Now, you guys are all perfectly free to water down the term, and utilize it for the average family that takes their kid to church and has them pray before going to bed, but you shouldn't expect everyone to agree with your agenda-laden redefinition.

As for me, I'll continue to reserve the terms "brainwashing" and "indoctrination" for cases that truly call for it-- for exceptional occurrences, and not normal child-rearing.

Why base this determination on how frequently it occurs and not the level of harm?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

meaning it's a synonym for "teaching", and therefore useless.

By that logic, all synonyms are useless. Which would make the word "synonym" redundant.

 

[Me Myself]

Whether or not that's true, they're not indoctrination. If they're indoctrination, then all teaching is, meaning it's a synonym for "teaching", and therefore useless.

Its a specific form of teaching anything to someone who is still unable to critical thinking is indoctrination by oxford standards.

If you disagree with the oxford, thats your problem.

Of course, you would tell your version of definitions to your kids,e ven when they are against the consensus of the english language.

 

[Magic Man]

By that logic, all synonyms are useless. Which would make the word "synonym" redundant.

Nope. Usually synonyms have slightly different connotations, making them useful for different situations. Even if they don't, they can still be useful. The problem in this case is that the term "indoctrination" whether acknowledged by all dictionaries or not, has certain connotations that make it significantly different from simply "teaching". If you want to use it as an exact synonym for teaching, go ahead, but it will only cause confusion the vast majority of the time, making it useless.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

He's not making assumptions, you suggested the information he addressed.

If he had made the blanket statement that child beauty pageants were immoral then you might have an argument.

He said that pageant parents are living vicariously through their children and objectifying them in order to "satisfy one's need for validation." If you can't see tge degree of assumption and stereotyping in that, I'm not sure I'll be able to explain it to you.

 

[Magic Man]

Of course, you would tell your version of definitions to your kids,e ven when they are against the consensus of the english language.

The dictionary isn't the consensus of he English language. If you're solely relying on the dictionary to speak English, you're not going to fare very well.

 

[Me Myself]

The dictionary isn't the consensus of he English language. If you're solely relying on the dictionary to speak English, you're not going to fare very well.

Both oxford and merriam, and if you go by the society's general usage of terms, you wont find it that most peoe say teaching your religion to your kids is indoctrination

So, which source are you actually using? Not dictionaries, and not common understanding....would it may be that you are using your definitions? Which go very well completely against most people usage of the term?

 

[Curious George]

Whether or not that's true, they're not indoctrination. If they're indoctrination, then all teaching is, meaning it's a synonym for "teaching", and therefore useless.



I disagree.

And the way some people are liberally applying the definition to include parents teaching beliefs as truths to their young children hinders distinguishing the two terms when dealing with young children.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

The problem in this case is that the term "indoctrination" whether acknowledged by all dictionaries or not

The OED rewards those who correctly realize (as you did in a later post) that dictionaries do not define words (well, sometimes technical dictionaries do but that's different), but rather are guides of usage. Your reward is an entry from the most complete and prestigious dictionary of the English language in existence which defines indoctrination as synonymous with brainwashing:

Instruction; formal teaching. Also spec., the ‘instruction’ of prisoners of war, etc., in Communist doctrines, ideas, etc.; = brainwashing n.
1646 Sir T. Browne Pseudodoxia Epidemica i. vii. 25 Postulates, very accommodable unto Junior indoctrinations.
1668 H. More Divine Dialogues (1713) iv. ix. 309 His Indoctrinations touching the Centre of the Soul in the Heart.
1842 Tait's Edinb. Mag. 9 751 A science to be understood by the indoctrination of the understanding.
1865 M. Pattison Serm. 123 The positivist knows of no other education than indoctrination.
1935 Nature 11 May 801/1 Freedom or indoctrination: an enduring dilemma of Education.
1950 Ann. Reg. 1949 188 Communist underground activities..‘subversion’ and indoctrination.
1955 Treatm. Brit. P.O.W.'s in Korea (H.M.S.O.) 8 The political education of prisoners in the North Korean camps was not, however, confined to oral indoctrination.
1956 W. H. Whyte Organization Man (1957) i. 9, I will then pick up the organization man in college, follow him through his initial indoctrination in organization life, and explore the impact of the group way upon him.
1958 Times 22 May 6/4 Men on the course would attend an indoctrination meeting.

If you want to use it as an exact synonym

I don't believe in such things. I was using the logic of your statement not my beliefs.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

The problem is the equation of any sort of religious teaching with "indoctrination" and "brainwashing".

In fact, several posters (including myself) have been pretty explicit in making a distinction here.

Those words are meant to imply something above and beyond normal behavior.

While the actual frequency isn't particularly relevant, I'd say its closer to the norm than the exception, at least in certain areas and with respect to certain religions (i.e. read: Christianity, rural United States, Islam, various places, etc.)

Now, you guys are all perfectly free to water down the term, and utilize it for the average family that takes their kid to church and has them pray before going to bed, but you shouldn't expect everyone to agree with your agenda-laden redefinition.

If the shoe fits... People who have themselves either received the sort of questionable religious upbringing we're talking about, or have/are/are planning on raising their own children in such a fashion, I'd imagine there will be an emotional reaction to the negative connotations of either word- ergo the sort of semantic quibbling and attempts at shifting the conversation we've seen from several posters on this thread.

As for me, I'll continue to reserve the terms "brainwashing" and "indoctrination" for cases that truly call for it-- for exceptional occurrences, and not normal child-rearing.

Again, my point, and what I take to be the OP's point, still stands regardless of the frequency of the religious indoctrination of children- but I'd say you are seriously underestimating the prevalence of the type of parenting in question. In many areas of the United States, in the rural south and midwest in particular, religious education is presented to children from an extremely young age in an authoritative, matter-of-fact, and indisputable manner, with content that induces fear and guilt via teachings about retribution in the afterlife, the concept of sin (a concept no child should be burdened with at all), and so on. There's really no way to sugarcoat it; this is indoctrination in every sense of the word, and there's certainly nothing inappropriate about calling it brainwashing either (semantic quibbles aside). Hell, some evangelical Christian leaders openly admit their trying to "recruit" (i.e. indoctrinate) as many children, at as early an age, as possible, as if they are trying to build an army (see the documentary Jesus Camp- very creepy).

Now, once again bracketing how common we think this behavior is, the question of whether it is unethical isn't even really open- if you have trouble seeing whats wrong with this, then you have larger problems. But I think that, in Christian households in the US, it is not as rare as some here would have us believe- I'd imagine there's a spectrum, and that there are large regions where most people are going to fall somewhere on that spectrum of religious indoctrination. And if it happens once, or 500,000 times, its still too many.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'd wager a guess that most people who don't believe in RCC teaching don't teach those teachings to their children.

Not themselves, probably, but even if they just go through the motions, their church will still likely require that the children go through catechism classes before they're confirmed, so they will be taught it.

And as the child grows up and goes through the sacraments from First Communion through marriage, they'll have to swear many times that they believe in the authority of the Catholic Church and will follow its teachings... IOW, they'll be coached to lie. This might be better than actually teaching a child he's hellbound if he becomes apostate, but I think it's still problematic.

 

[Willamena]

And the way some people are liberally applying the definition to include parents teaching beliefs as truths to their young children hinders distinguishing the two terms when dealing with young children.

Can you give some examples, then, of children being indoctrinated by religion?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Both oxford and merriam, and if you go by the society's general usage of terms, you wont find it that most peoe say teaching your religion to your kids is indoctrination

And a few decades ago, you wouldn't find many people who would say that getting behind the wheel after four or five beers was impaired driving. Does this mean it wasn't?

 

[Enai de a lukal]

And the way some people are liberally applying the definition to include parents teaching beliefs as truths to their young children hinders distinguishing the two terms when dealing with young children.

Not really. The difference between teaching beliefs as truths and truths as truths isn't especially tricky.

 

[sojourner]

If you're going to make assumptions about the motivations of pageant parents and paint them all with the same broad brush, can I do the same for religious parents?

Ridiculous. Misdirection won't work. Infantile beauty pageants have nothing to do with normal, religious upbringing -- which has nothing to do with brainwashing.

 

[sojourner]

I find it telling that when someone argues against coercive religious instruction, you assume it to mean ALL religious instruction.

Well, the OP does say "Why making your children follow your religion is truly brainwashing." That implies all religious upbringing. Talk to the guy who reamed up the OP.

 

[sojourner]

That's a fancy way of saying what I said in number 2.

No. "Teaching as fact" isn't at all the same thing as "teaching a mythic way of understanding."