Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing

[Koldo]

Of course. What's your point? Justifying a snarky comment? Or just assuring yourself that I'm not too big for my britches?

Just making sure one of your statements has been rendered useless.

 

[Magic Man]

Beliefs aren't "imposed." No one can force belief. Beliefs can be offered, suggested, shared, used metaphorically, but not imposed.

Whether or not you think they can be forced, they can most certainly be imposed. Imposing a belief just means forcing it on them. It doesn't necessarily mean they then accept it. But considering the position a parent is in, imposing the belief on the child generally leads to the child accepting it.

It means that, many times when the religion isn't effective, it's due more to the practitioner or seeker not doing her or his due diligence, than it is to an inherent failure of the religion.

Ah, a sort of all-encompassing excuse for religion not working.

 

[ChristineES]

Your children didn't have much of a say in the matter, did they?

This is pretty similar to what is religious indoctrination. The remarkable difference is that in one case the adult is teaching the child how to interact on society within the rules and customs it has learned, while in the other case it goes much beyond that.

Not exactly the same. When I taught my children how to be polite (one example), I expected them to conform and even insisted on it, when I taught them to not hit each other or there would be consequences (such as time out), I'd insist they not hit each other, and more. When it came to teaching them faith, I didn't do the same thing, I definitely did not insist they needed to follow my faith and I told them that it was their own decision to make. I'd say that's a huge difference.

 

[Magic Man]

I'd like to elaborate my position a little more here, because it appears as though many don't understand where I'm coming from.

I have no problem with Catholicism, Protestantism, Orthodoxy, Shamanism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Humanism, Paganism -- or any other "ism," provided that the system doesn't become self-serving to the point that the myths and metaphors it teaches become fact, in and of themselves. There are many different paths to the Divine, just as there are many faces to the Divine, and just as there are billions of unique individuals who seek the Divine.

First, you imply here that you do have a problem with any of those isms when they're accepted as facts. That would mean we agree concerning most Christian child-raising in this country.

Second, this view of yours would seem to support the idea of letting kids figure out their own path. If there are so many different options, why force them into just one of them, making it harder for them to then explore others when they have the opportunity? I know I've asked this before, but I still haven't gotten a real answer to it.

 

[Magic Man]

So is forcing them to work in your profession. Don't blame me for your bad analogies.

Except that it is like forcing them to work in your profession, so it's not a bad analogy.

 

[Magic Man]

Are my kids so unusual? They questioned everything I ever said to them from the time they were little. My son, at age 4, announced to me that there is no Santa Claus, no Easter Bunny, etc. I could never get my kids to believe anything.

It's not unusual for kids to question. It's also not unusual for kids to not believe in Santa Claus, etc. But it's unusual for kids brought up as Christian to stop believing in Christianity, or at least parts of it. That's why there's historically been such a small number of non-Christians in this country.

 

[ChristineES]

First, you imply here that you do have a problem with any of those isms when they're accepted as facts. That would mean we agree concerning most Christian child-raising in this country.

Second, this view of yours would seem to support the idea of letting kids figure out their own path. If there are so many different options, why force them into just one of them, making it harder for them to then explore others when they have the opportunity? I know I've asked this before, but I still haven't gotten a real answer to it.

Who's forcing? I don't know of many parents who actually force their children into belief, for one, as I said earlier, it's not really even possible to force someone else to believe. Teaching children faith is not the same as forcing them to believe in it. Why would learning one faith that the parents follow stop them for exploring other faiths?

 

[Koldo]

Not exactly the same. When I taught my children how to be polite (one example), I expected them to conform and even insisted on it, when I taught them to not hit each other or there would be consequences (such as time out), I'd insist they not hit each other, and more. When it came to teaching them faith, I didn't do the same thing, I definitely did not insist they needed to follow my faith and I told them that it was their own decision to make. I'd say that's a huge difference.

There seems to be a misunderstanding here.
I didn't say you indoctrinated your children with religious beliefs.

If you expected your children to conform to your religious beliefs and insisted on it, that is religious indoctrination.

 

[sojourner]

Just making sure one of your statements has been rendered useless.

It hasn't been rendered useless at all, since the statement was one of well-known fact. The fact that my own perspective is limited has no bearing on the truth of the statement. So... I have to wonder: Whose statement has been rendered useless.

 

[Koldo]

It hasn't been rendered useless at all, since the statement was one of well-known fact. The fact that my own perspective is limited has no bearing on the truth of the statement. So... I have to wonder: Whose statement has been rendered useless.

Oh, your perspective is too limited to see how it was rendered useless then.

 

[ChristineES]

It's not unusual for kids to question. It's also not unusual for kids to not believe in Santa Claus, etc. But it's unusual for kids brought up as Christian to stop believing in Christianity, or at least parts of it. That's why there's historically been such a small number of non-Christians in this country.

I just can't agree with that. I've known a whole lot of people whose parents followed a faith and taught it to their children and the children either became a different faith or they were agnostic (I've met very, very few atheists). This includes my own mother, who was raised as a Catholic yet became an atheist at age 12. It includes my stepfather, who was raised as a Zen Buddhist and does not follow Zen Buddhism at all. It also includes many of my friends including but not limited to a young lady who was raised as a Christian yet became a Pagan and a young man who was raised as a Catholic who was an agnostic. There are so many others.

 

[sojourner]

Whether or not you think they can be forced, they can most certainly be imposed. Imposing a belief just means forcing it on them. It doesn't necessarily mean they then accept it. But considering the position a parent is in, imposing the belief on the child generally leads to the child accepting it.

As soon as the child becomes self-differentiated, beliefs may naturally fall by the wayside. Imprinting them "forever" is really difficult.

Ah, a sort of all-encompassing excuse for religion not working.

No, a realization that religion is relationship, not objective knowledge. If it doesn't "work," it's a product of the relationship -- both parties culpable -- not simply a matter of a faulty body of knowledge. The failure may be as simple as the relationship not being a good fit.

 

[sojourner]

That would mean we agree concerning most Christian child-raising in this country.

I'm not convinced about the quantifier "most." You'll have to provide statistics.

Second, this view of yours would seem to support the idea of letting kids figure out their own path.

When they're old enough to do so. The statement said nothing about that, though. The statement was with regard to the validity of one of many valid paths.

 

[Magic Man]

Who's forcing? I don't know of many parents who actually force their children into belief, for one, as I said earlier, it's not really even possible to force someone else to believe. Teaching children faith is not the same as forcing them to believe in it. Why would learning one faith that the parents follow stop them for exploring other faiths?

Parents who teach their religion to their children are forcing it on them. As I pointed out, it is possible to force someone to believe. Learning the parents' religion would stop them from exploring others because they've already been taught that theirs is the true one. Even if they question that at some point, it's hard to break free of that view, once it's been drilled into you.

 

[Magic Man]

I just can't agree with that. I've known a whole lot of people whose parents followed a faith and taught it to their children and the children either became a different faith or they were agnostic (I've met very, very few atheists). This includes my own mother, who was raised as a Catholic yet became an atheist at age 12. It includes my stepfather, who was raised as a Zen Buddhist and does not follow Zen Buddhism at all. It also includes many of my friends including but not limited to a young lady who was raised as a Christian yet became a Pagan and a young man who was raised as a Catholic who was an agnostic. There are so many others.

That's anecdotal evidence. It doesn't invalidate the fact that a large percentage of people do grow up to follow their parents' religion when it's taught to them as children. That's why you have such a high percentage of children who grow up to be Muslim in Muslim countries, and Christians in Christian countries, etc.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

For the record, I defend religions and those who practice and believe.

But would anyone else like to address my personal experience as a child raised in a religious home - with liberal and progressive parents for the most part - and still grew up with a sense of trying to fit in because I was under the impression that I must believe? I was under the impression that my orientation was sick and an abomination.

I doubt I'm the only person who was raised that way, and it caused me a lot of distress.

My kids also go visit their dads house from time to time, and he lets them know that they must go to church with them because he says so. He also had them baptized, not because they asked, but when they told me that they were baptized when they were younger, I asked him why. He said, "So they can be Christian and go to heaven." The kids don't particularly enjoy those visits, unfortunately. Since it doesn't matter what their preferences are, their dad tells them the same thing: "My house, my rules. You're going to church, and you're going to like it. End of story."

My husbands extended family are also legalistic Christians who often times at family gatherings will offer their opinions on the matter of "Well, you have two choices...eternity in heaven with God the Father, or an eternity in hell with suffering."

My extended family are largely Catholic. My husbands extended family are largely Protestant. We have seen a spectrum of expressions of Christian belief, and very liberal Christianity is rare in this part of the country. At least in my experience. As far as I could tell, the most liberal Christians have been Mormons in the midwest.

So like I said, I defend the freedom of parents to raise their kids as they see fit. But it's been said before in this thread, that it seems that some religious upbringing as harmful is being minimized in favor of a more humanist position in regards to sharing ones religion with their kids.

I think culturally, it's widely accepted to raise children in religious households. With that being said, I think it's responsible to see what beliefs are harmful and what aren't in regards to introducing children and teens into a world that is ethnically diverse, where women have minds and voices, where queers are human beings and contributing citizens, and where even one's own family member interprets religious doctrine differently than you.

Our household - determined by me and my husband - is committed to being a truly secular household. We have children who believe many different things, and all four children have asked us many questions as they were growing up. From Christianity to Buddhism to Hinduism to Atheism. Not once did we ever give them the idea that they must follow what we believe (Heck, hubbie and I don't even believe the same things between each other). We think it starts with us respecting each other's beliefs, boundaries, privacy, and values, and it's modeled on the kids.

It's probably why because how we were raised, and how we felt pushed, prodded, shamed, manipulated, threatened, etc...that we have been consistently committed to going the opposite way of raising our kids in regards to a single religious belief. For us, it's too close to an authoritarian approach. And in this part of the country (at least in our circle), culturally, religion is presented and expressed as legalistic and not universal-salvation based.

Granted, I understand there are variables with how parents raise their children. My parents never fully endorsed the misogynistic and homophobic teachings of the church, but they never argued against it except for a few moments of how they don't believe a woman should submit to her husband. They were largely a "hands-off" approach and just let the teachings speak for themselves for us, or that we'd find our own interpretations. The result? One child who remains staunchly Catholic with his family, and two children who left rebelliously.

Okay, so I've jumped around a bit, but I've been keeping up with this thread. And if a religion is expressed in an authoritarian manner, it's likely that the parents who share this expression will do it in an authoritarian manner as well. I think it exponentially increases the pressure to conform and please one's parents more so than if the religious expression is more egalitarian and open to interpretation.

Hope I made sense.

 

[ChristineES]

Parents who teach their religion to their children are forcing it on them. As I pointed out, it is possible to force someone to believe. Learning the parents' religion would stop them from exploring others because they've already been taught that theirs is the true one. Even if they question that at some point, it's hard to break free of that view, once it's been drilled into you.

I've already said why I disagree with that. It is also apparent that you had that situation- parents "drilling" you with the faith. I think the best course for me is to "agree to disagree" on this one point.

 

[Willamena]

Could you elaborate?

That...

generalizations from limited perspectives are put forward as "the whole truth"

...refers not to any particular person's perspective, but a perspective regardless of any particular person.

 

[Magic Man]

As soon as the child becomes self-differentiated, beliefs may naturally fall by the wayside. Imprinting them "forever" is really difficult.

It's not that hard. It happens all the time with religious beliefs.

No, a realization that religion is relationship, not objective knowledge. If it doesn't "work," it's a product of the relationship -- both parties culpable -- not simply a matter of a faulty body of knowledge. The failure may be as simple as the relationship not being a good fit.

In other words, you could be forcing a religion on a kid that doesn't fit him, and then it will be hard for him to find one that does?

 

[Magic Man]

I'm not convinced about the quantifier "most." You'll have to provide statistics.

Seriously? You really need to be convinced that most Christians in this country are teaching religious beliefs as facts?

When they're old enough to do so. The statement said nothing about that, though. The statement was with regard to the validity of one of many valid paths.

So, you agree one path shouldn't be forced on them, and they should be allowed to instead find their own path when they're ready?