Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing

[ChristineES]

I don't see as raising children as brainwashing. For one thing, all a baby has at the beginning is instinct. I believe a child has a few innate qualities, but we are teaching them from anew for the most part. Brainwashing is forcing a person to forget old ideas to force our own into them, and we are not doing that to a small child. Brainwashing is abuse. Teaching them how to live in the world is not.

 

[Koldo]

I have no idea what you're talking about. Why don't you just throw an outright punch instead of a cheap jab?

I was talking about your remark on 'limited perspectives'.

 

[sojourner]

Ah. So while what you call "spiritual development" is necessary, it's something that doesn't require things like religious rituals, mythology involving the supernatural, or arbitrary codes of behaviour at all.

And in fact, if self-worth is an integral part of spiritual development, then I'd say that any religion that teaches that we're all innately sinful or that humans are just "pots" that the potmaker can do with as he pleases (i.e. we have no worth beyond what God decides to bestow on us) would actually go against spiritual development. I realize that not all religious groups teach this, but a non-negligible number do.

It doesn't require anything other than some discipline on the part of the seeker or practitioner to engage deeply with what can only be known intuitively about one's deepest self and how that self relates to the rest of creation.

Any spiritual system (including humanism) that does its due diligence will work -- so long as that system resonates with the seeker and aids in her or his engagement.

With regard to your last paragraph, I agree, with the following caveats. Teaching that we're inherently sinful isn't helpful -- until and unless it serves to empty us of vices and superfluities that bind us or get in the way of holistic growth. Teaching that "we are 'pots'...that have no worth beyond what God decides to bestow on us" doesn't resonate with me at all as a healthy theological position. I would put it that our self-worth is only truly found as we are authentically the imago Dei, and that the work of religion is to help us remember who God intended us to be.

 

[idav]

Faith is the assurance of things hoped for. It isn't "certainty." It isn't a set of notions. It's a stance one takes.

Well if it isn't certainty then I'm not sure the brainwashing took.

 

[sojourner]

I was talking your remark about 'limited perspectives'.

Right. I understand that. What I don't understand is your reference to "pot calling kettle black."

 

[sojourner]

Well if it isn't certainty then I'm not sure the brainwashing took.

Religion/spirituality isn't about providing answers. It's about creating space to ask helpful questions.

 

[Koldo]

What I am not understanding is this: How can force someone to believe? Sure, you can force a person to go through the motions (of a faith or something else) but you can't force someone to believe. And belief (or non-belief) isn't anything you can even force on yourself. I can't force myself to believe in anything- I either believe something or I don't believe something. We can think about it and weigh our options. A small child probably hasn't learned to do that and probably wouldn't be able to do that, but you still truly can't force someone to believe something and it's not even something we choose.

It is not about forcing it literally. It is more like inculcating.

 

[Koldo]

Right. I understand that. What I don't understand is your reference to "pot calling kettle black."

You have a limited perspective on their limited perspective.

 

[ChristineES]

It is not about forcing it literally. It is more like inculcating.

I do that when I want to learn something. That is one way I study.

 

[Koldo]

I do that when I want to learn something. That is one way I study.

Out of your own volition, isn't that right?

 

[sojourner]

Ah. So while what you call "spiritual development" is necessary, it's something that doesn't require things like religious rituals, mythology involving the supernatural, or arbitrary codes of behaviour at all.

And in fact, if self-worth is an integral part of spiritual development, then I'd say that any religion that teaches that we're all innately sinful or that humans are just "pots" that the potmaker can do with as he pleases (i.e. we have no worth beyond what God decides to bestow on us) would actually go against spiritual development. I realize that not all religious groups teach this, but a non-negligible number do.

I'd like to elaborate my position a little more here, because it appears as though many don't understand where I'm coming from.

I have no problem with Catholicism, Protestantism, Orthodoxy, Shamanism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Humanism, Paganism -- or any other "ism," provided that the system doesn't become self-serving to the point that the myths and metaphors it teaches become fact, in and of themselves. There are many different paths to the Divine, just as there are many faces to the Divine, and just as there are billions of unique individuals who seek the Divine.

For me, the authenticity of Xy lies not in the factual veracity of a crucified and risen Jesus, but in its ability to engender faith, hope, and love, in its ability to foster the inner journey, in the way it calls community into being through a covenant of authentic sharing, and in the way it provides metaphors that help us understand our relationship to creation more deeply. Insofar as Xy does those things, it is valid as a spiritual path. Inasmuch as it does not do those things -- either through institutional or individual shortcomings -- it is not valid as a spiritual path.

I don't have a problem with people who leave Xy because it doesn't "work" for them, so long as they're not just making excuses for their own inability or lack of willingness to take responsibility for their own part in making that relationship work -- not because they're "turning their back on Jesus," but because they're running away from culpability, and that will follow them no matter where they go.

i don't have a problem with people who sincerely follow a path other than Xy -- even atheism and Humanism -- so long as they're seeking a deeper knowledge of themselves in relation to the rest of creation.

I'm not arguing for Xy as anything other than one valid path that is so deeply culturally-imbedded in this society. I see it as a valid way for parents to help their children learn to seek within themselves, as those children become able to do so. I see it as a valid way for children to bond with parents, families, and wider social groups. I see it as a valid way for people to become fully self-differentiated and still be able to be responsible to the community.

But not as the only way those things can happen.

 

[sojourner]

You have a limited perspective on their limited perspective.

Of course I do! So does everyone else. Nothing wrong with pointing out our limitations and being honest about them...

 

[ChristineES]

Out of your own volition, isn't that right?

Of course. But, with my children, I had to keep reminding them to say "thank you" and "please", for example. I had them repeat it by asking "what do you say?" So I would say that it is a normal way to teach children. Don't we all do that? It doesn't seem unusual because I see parents doing it all the time.

 

[Magic Man]

What I am not understanding is this: How can force someone to believe? Sure, you can force a person to go through the motions (of a faith or something else) but you can't force someone to believe. And belief (or non-belief) isn't anything you can even force on yourself. I can't force myself to believe in anything- I either believe something or I don't believe something. We can think about it and weigh our options. A small child probably hasn't learned to do that and probably wouldn't be able to do that, but you still truly can't force someone to believe something and it's not even something we choose.

Actually, it is possible to force someone to believe something, which is why there are the terms indoctrination and brainwashing. If you're in a position of authority over them, there are measures you can take to get them to believe what you want them to. As with anything, there are going to be exceptions, where it's not possible, but for the most part it certainly is.

And this is the problem. It's not hard to get children to believe what you want, which is why we have to be careful. They're very dependent on their parents for information about the world.

 

[Curious George]

But that's quite a bit different from imposing your religious beliefs on them.



And again, that's quite a bit different from imposing your religious beliefs on them.

So is forcing them to work in your profession. Don't blame me for your bad analogies.

 

[ChristineES]

Actually, it is possible to force someone to believe something, which is why there are the terms indoctrination and brainwashing. If you're in a position of authority over them, there are measures you can take to get them to believe what you want them to. As with anything, there are going to be exceptions, where it's not possible, but for the most part it certainly is.

And this is the problem. It's not hard to get children to believe what you want, which is why we have to be careful. They're very dependent on their parents for information about the world.

Are my kids so unusual? They questioned everything I ever said to them from the time they were little. My son, at age 4, announced to me that there is no Santa Claus, no Easter Bunny, etc. I could never get my kids to believe anything.

 

[sojourner]

They're very dependent on their parents for information about the world.

...as well as how to intuit their own self-worth.

 

[Koldo]

Of course I do! So does everyone else. Nothing wrong with pointing out our limitations and being honest about them...

Nothing wrong with pointing out our limitations at perceiving another person's limitation as well, isn't that right too?

 

[sojourner]

Nothing wrong with pointing out our limitations at perceiving another person's limitation as well, isn't that right too?

Of course. What's your point? Justifying a snarky comment? Or just assuring yourself that I'm not too big for my britches?

 

[Koldo]

Of course. But, with my children, I had to keep reminding them to say "thank you" and "please", for example. I had them repeat it by asking "what do you say?" So I would say that it is a normal way to teach children. Don't we all do that? It doesn't seem unusual because I see parents doing it all the time.

Your children didn't have much of a say in the matter, did they?

This is pretty similar to what is religious indoctrination. The remarkable difference is that in one case the adult is teaching the child how to interact on society within the rules and customs it has learned, while in the other case it goes much beyond that.