Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing

[Magic Man]

I think you have some messed up views about the rationality of people during bouts of mental illness, and I think it's bizarre to blame a religion with a prohibition on suicide for someone's suicide.

Your opinion is duly noted, although this is well below your normal standard of argument.

 

[Magic Man]

On what basis.

On the same basis it's generally accepted these days that parents shouldn't try to force their kids to follow in their footsteps professionally.

 

[Magic Man]

it doesn't work that way. Religion, for the religious, is part of their cultural context. If you extricate religion, the context changes.

It does work like that. I have been able to identify, hang out and be very much involved with my parents for many years now without being part of their religion anymore. It doesn't even come up. It's not an inherently necessary part of their culture.

 

[Magic Man]

Of course they should! Because the religious beliefs are part of the values the parents deem worthwhile.

Great, so any values the parents deem worthwhile should be imposed on the child. So, you have no problem with the parents in the WBC, right? It's perfectly acceptable for them to pass on their religious beliefs to their kids?

 

[Magic Man]

I have yet to see anything that would induce me to label normal imparting of religious beliefs to children as "brainwashing".

Indoctrination is closer to the mark, if you use a loose definition of it, which means that it applies to many other things that parents teach to their children. It is essentially unavoidable.

I have also yet to see any argument that induces me to believe that significant harm is caused children by raising them within a particular belief frame-work. Again, such a thing seems rather unavoidable and religion seems to be singled out.

Additionally, no argument has convinced me that parents who do choose to impart their religious beliefs to their offspring are demonstrating an inferior form of parenting, and that with-holding such beliefs and teachings demonstrates a better form.

I think that sums up the three (or four) main things being argued.

Then I suggest re-reading many of the posts here.

 

[idav]

I have yet to see anything that would induce me to label normal imparting of religious beliefs to children as "brainwashing".

Indoctrination is closer to the mark, if you use a loose definition of it, which means that it applies to many other things that parents teach to their children. It is essentially unavoidable.

I have also yet to see any argument that induces me to believe that significant harm is caused children by raising them within a particular belief frame-work. Again, such a thing seems rather unavoidable and religion seems to be singled out.

Additionally, no argument has convinced me that parents who do choose to impart their religious beliefs to their offspring are demonstrating an inferior form of parenting, and that with-holding such beliefs and teachings demonstrates a better form.

I think that sums up the three (or four) main things being argued.

Good points. Generally parents want the best for their kids so even if they felt brainwashing is necessary, presumably the parents are attempting to teach the truth. Trouble is parents all have different truths, so though well intentioned, lies can easily slip through.

 

[Sinful Hypocrite]

You can also include making children learn to pledge allegiance to a flag and country, of which they cannot understand until they are older.

This, however, is done involuntarily by the Government in public schools which is different than the parents teaching their own child what is important to them.

The government should not have the same rights as the parents, and the child should be of legal age before they can be asked to willingly pledge allegiance.

 

[Falvlun]

Great, so any values the parents deem worthwhile should be imposed on the child. So, you have no problem with the parents in the WBC, right? It's perfectly acceptable for them to pass on their religious beliefs to their kids?

1. The cultish nature-- the method of teaching-- of WBC makes this comparison to normal religious education to be unwarranted.

2. Yes, there are going to always be beliefs that we wish were not passed down by parents to their children. However, this sliding scale is going to be extremely subjective. I certainly wouldn't want someone labeling me a bad parent simply because they believe my beliefs to be offensive.

 

[Me Myself]

Good points. Generally parents want the best for their kids so even if they felt brainwashing is necessary, presumably the parents are attempting to teach the truth. Trouble is parents all have different truths, so though well intentioned, lies can easily slip through.

The thing is with indoctrination what is relevant is the method not the content.

A parent teaches religion in a similar way that he teaches morality or that she says her uncle came to visit last month,

We say this as facts because we understand themas such and may only give reasons for them if questioned or may give some reasons in general.

 

[Falvlun]

Good points. Generally parents want the best for their kids so even if they felt brainwashing is necessary, presumably the parents are attempting to teach the truth. Trouble is parents all have different truths, so though well intentioned, lies can easily slip through.

I think that that is the flip side of the coin that has been undersold.

Parents are teaching their kids their religious beliefs out of love and care.

Yes, parents might be wrong with some of the stuff they teach their kids. I doubt anyone has some access to the ultimate Truth. But, hey, that's the real world. You won't only be fed truth 24/7.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

I doubt anyone has some access to the ultimate Truth.

Well, except me of course. In fact, I'm pretty sure I am the ultimate Truth. It's on my business cards.

 

[sojourner]

It does work like that. I have been able to identify, hang out and be very much involved with my parents for many years now without being part of their religion anymore. It doesn't even come up. It's not an inherently necessary part of their culture.

Whaddo ya know! The context has changed! Just as I said. You said "anymore." Apparently, you were part of it at one point in time.

 

[sojourner]

Great, so any values the parents deem worthwhile should be imposed on the child. So, you have no problem with the parents in the WBC, right? It's perfectly acceptable for them to pass on their religious beliefs to their kids?

I do have a problem with the values of the WBC. I have a problem with the hate. It's not acceptable to me that they pass on that hate. However, that's the parents' prerogative -- whether we agree with it or not.

 

[Curious George]

On the same basis it's generally accepted these days that parents shouldn't try to force their kids to follow in their footsteps professionally.

But no one says that you shouldn't give your kids tools of your trade and let them play pretend.

 

[Curious George]

On the same basis it's generally accepted these days that parents shouldn't try to force their kids to follow in their footsteps professionally.

And telling them that x is a good job (a belief) isn't condemned either.

 

[Koldo]

As long as we're dealing with the letter of the law and not the spirit, i.e., claiming that a 12 year old who hangs themselves (where'd she learn to do that? Was that particularly Christian or a Christian suicide?) can be said to have committed suicide for religious reasons thanks to a note that attributes her death to a wish to be reunited with a loved one in heaven, we might as well throw that line of reasoning out the window too. Her note said nothing about heaven:
"Maria, from Leszno in Poland, had left a short note, which read: 'Dear Mum. Please don't be sad. I just miss daddy so much, I want to see him again.'"
Source

Now most people would say that believing you are going to see deceased people again is a religious idea. But Poland isn't known for it's religious people, there are multiple religions with ideas about death, and there are people who aren't religious who believe in life after death or tell their kids this. To my knowledge, no religion teaches children how to hang themselves.

So, we have a 12 year old girl who knows about a form of suicide girls especially and children in general do not commit who, as a reason, simply says the wants to see her father again. We can't even say it was a religious teaching that gave her this idea (one can see it in movies, on tv, in fairy tales, in mythologies, etc.). It certainly isn't necessarily a Christian idea and there is no evidence she was even actually taught this rather than picked it up and interpreted it which, given the fact that the religions which tend to have adherents who believe one can be reunited with the dead are also religions which have doctrinal reasons against suicide, is probably more likely than that she was taught it.

Moreover, if we follow the underlying logic of "ideas that can be harmful to Children because of the possibility of suicide" then most religions (especially those more influential and/or prevalent in the West-Christianity, Judaism, & Islam) are beneficial here.

There is no basis for arguing that religious teaching really informed this girl's decision as we don't know where she got the idea that one can meet deceased people, we don't know how she learned to kill herself by hanging (at 12), we don't know who or what caused her to believe that killing herself would allow her to reunite with the dead, and current psychological and medical theories hold that a child who chokes the life out of themselves at 12 has a severe medical illness (or, in more psychological terms, is severely distraught) and it is not because of religion.

Religion in Poland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Koldo]

Do you have any psychological source saying that people who commit suicide tend to know which are the main issues that push em to do so?

Because on great emotional stress, we tend to make up %^*] on the fly.

Do i need any source for that?

Do you have any source saying that people who commit suicide tend not to know which are the main issues that push them to do so?

 

[Koldo]

No, it simply means that generalizations from limited perspectives are put forward as "the whole truth."

Limited perspectives?
Who is the one here with a limitless perspective?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

1. The cultish nature-- the method of teaching-- of WBC makes this comparison to normal religious education to be unwarranted.

2. Yes, there are going to always be beliefs that we wish were not passed down by parents to their children. However, this sliding scale is going to be extremely subjective. I certainly wouldn't want someone labeling me a bad parent simply because they believe my beliefs to be offensive.

Personally, I think the term "dangerous group" is more useful than "cult", since it shifts focus to effects, not just whether the group is small and strange.

Unfortunately, it looks like my go-to site for dangerous group warning signs has disappeared from the internet, but one aspect of it that struck me as interesting was that it provided two lists: one of warning signs for the group itself, and another for warning signs for individual members. One big point that I took away from it was that while I could hardly identify any churches that displayed many "dangerous group" warning signs, I could think of plenty of religious individuals whose approach to religion ticked almost all of the boxes indicating that they were likely in a dangerous group.

To me, this suggests that religion is a lot like alcohol: many (most?) people approach it in a responsible, reasonable way, but it can create major problems for a non-negligible percentage of adherents.

 

[Magic Man]

1. The cultish nature-- the method of teaching-- of WBC makes this comparison to normal religious education to be unwarranted.

2. Yes, there are going to always be beliefs that we wish were not passed down by parents to their children. However, this sliding scale is going to be extremely subjective. I certainly wouldn't want someone labeling me a bad parent simply because they believe my beliefs to be offensive.

My point is just that it's not as simple as "Well, it's the parents' beliefs, so they should pass them down". That only applies when the beliefs are ones you agree with. I'd rather just not pass down beliefs.