Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing

[Curious George]

There are still some people claiming that it is not?

Absolutely I would suggest that we inevitably compromise a child's autonomy and right to self determination of their own self image and personal identity.

I am trying to figure out why religion is the point of the gripe.

 

[Curious George]

That may well have been the intent- unfortunately, as we can see, things didn't go as planned, since nothing he said contradicted my claim. That communities are crucial in child development, that parent/child interactions build bonds and trust, and assist in learning, that children begin developing complex/abstract reasoning during a certain age, and so on, do not form an argument against my claim that religious indoctrination at a young age is an unnecessary compromise of the childs autonomy and right to self-determination of their own self-image and personal identity (or, at best, such an argument would be non-sequitur).

It absolutely does. If a child's autonomy is going to be compromised in this fashion inevitably, then it puts the burden back to you to show why religious socialization is any better or worse than other forms of socialization.

 

[withoutcharge]

I think it is important to teach children to be incredibly skeptical about CERTAINTY. Teach children that a healthy, balanced approach to life would be to appreciate the unknown, rather than fear it. Fearing the unknown results in a total collapse of our reasoning centers, and prevents us from considering other perspectives -- regardless of their disposition.

 

[ChristineES]

Actually, I think the most important thing might just be teaching your children how to think for themselves, teaching them to question everything (well, almost everything), how to make their own decisions. I've known people who not only have a hard time making decisions but are also afraid of making decisions. And you have to let your children know that whatever they choose or whoever they are, that you will always love and accept them for who they are.

 

[Me Myself]

Actually, I think the most important thing might just be teaching your children how to think for themselves, teaching them to question everything (well, almost everything), how to make their own decisions. I've known people who not only have a hard time making decisions but are also afraid of making decisions. And you have to let your children know that whatever they choose or whoever they are, that you will always love and accept them for who they are.

Meh. I guess it would depend on the kid, but in general people do question around. Ultimately, you reinforce the habits that you find are lacking or not strong or refined enough.

I do believe one of the most important things is to let them know and experience for themselves, while as you can maintaining them on a safe enviroment and making sure they keep good values. They will do this naturally at teen years, if they stray out of the religion or beliefs that you like, you reinforce them, if they are still not desiring to adopt them, well there comes that they shall know and feel your love is not conditioned to that, and that they can always talk to you about their stuff and you will always see for their wellbeing and integrity first and foremost.

 

[Me Myself]

You've never watched Toddlers & Tiaras, have you?

Toddlers & Tiaras - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have never watched it, no.

I also dont think it is relevant on this discussion. I think I stated clearly that we would be taking about unharmful things o.0 .

Toddlers and tiaras is something I think should be ilegal outright.

 

[LuisDantas]

Absolutely I would suggest that we inevitably compromise a child's autonomy and right to self determination of their own self image and personal identity.

I am trying to figure out why religion is the point of the gripe.

It is not complicated. Parents often use religion as both a weapon and a justification for some particularly nasty forms of abuse.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have never watched it, no.

I also dont think it is relevant on this discussion. I think I stated clearly that we would be taking about unharmful things o.0 .

Toddlers and tiaras is something I think should be ilegal outright.

What's the difference?

You said that it wasn't wrong for a parent to shape their children's self identities unless it's "clearly harmful". What's clearly harmful about children's beauty pageants? The girls on the show seem to like them for the most part, and the parents think they're doing the right thing. Who are you to question their judgement?

And some of the parents are former beauty contestants themselves who use their children's pageant experience to bond and build their relationship. Isn't that a good thing in a religious context? If so, why would it be bad in a non-religious context?

 

[Me Myself]

What's the difference?

You said that it wasn't wrong for a parent to shape their children's self identities unless it's "clearly harmful". What's clearly harmful about children's beauty pageants? The girls on the show seem to like them for the most part, and the parents think they're doing the right thing. Who are you to question their judgement?

And some of the parents are former beauty contestants themselves who use their children's pageant experience to bond and build their relationship. Isn't that a good thing in a religious context? If so, why would it be bad in a non-religious context?

TBH because I would expect most of the watchers to have serious spychological issues and most of the men who enjjoy to watch such to be pedophiles.

Where it not for that, while I disapprove, it would be their right. The reason I have such distrust for it is because I feel it sexifies minors.

Then on I dont like their feeling of sef worth to be so aligned to being visually appealing to others, but that much I dont think it should be my place to rule put of their parents capacity. I do think its bad parenting though.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

TBH because I would expect most of the watchers to have serious spychological issues and most of the men who enjjoy to watch such to be pedophiles.

You "expect"... do you have any support for this claim?

Where it not for that, while I disapprove, it would be their right. The reason I have such distrust for it is because I feel it sexifies minors.

And is "sexifying" a minor any worse than trying to choose their religion for them? Please provide objective evidence for your position.

Then on I dont like their feeling of sef worth to be so aligned to being visually appealing to others, but that much I dont think it should be my place to rule put of their parents capacity. I do think its bad parenting though.

And I don't like a child's feeling of self worth to be so aligned to believing in the "right" religion, and I think it's bad parenting to make a child feel that way... though I don't think that this by itself would be enough to warrant taking a child away from his or her parents.

 

[Me Myself]

You "expect"... do you have any support for this claim?

None. As for prescedent's sake it might be bad to outlaw it without evidence to it I admit.

And is "sexifying" a minor any worse than trying to choose their religion for them? Please provide objective evidence for your position.

Morality is not objective. I find it dangerous to sexify your children, it does have to do with pedophilia.

And I don't like a child's feeling of self worth to be so aligned to believing in the "right" religion, and I think it's bad parenting to make a child feel that way... though I don't think that this by itself would be enough to warrant taking a child away from his or her parents.

I dont think being part of the right religion should be central to their selfworth at all, I dont even believe there should be any emphasis on "right" its more about " mine" . Its the parent's culture and their approach to spirituality, which is understandable to be shared until the children keep on developing themselves and growing apart and different from the family.

It comes as subjective, yes, but I do believe that your feeling of selfworth shouldnt be something decided by a jury of strangers based on how cute you look in comparison to the other kids, while at least religion puts it on something that the children will have more control of and if the parents are doing a good job, its not something where they simply "fail" and now they are not "number one" and similar idiocies.

 

[LuisDantas]

It absolutely does. If a child's autonomy is going to be compromised in this fashion inevitably, then it puts the burden back to you to show why religious socialization is any better or worse than other forms of socialization.

Isn't the fact that religious socialization alone involves threats of eternal hellfire enough for starters?

 

[Me Myself]

Isn't the fact that religious socialization alone involves threats of eternal hellfire enough for starters?

That to the least depends on the religion.

Also on the culture.

Yes, in theory, hell exists in catholic teachings, but as a kid I was bound to believe you had to be "really really really reallly really really REALLY reall really bad" to go to hell. And even then if you tell god you are sorry its all okay. And even if you are not he will give youa chan... Well you get the vibe.

I just came to really think about hell when on my teens, but normal social interaction with others would tell you most others dont believe in it either, even when it is allegedly part of catholic teachings, and again that if they did it is for the " r r r r ... Bad" like hitler or something.

The only thing religion made for me then was that I liked e values, I liked Jesus and I could pray which I enjoyed, and I prayed thanks every night, which I think was very good for me.

 

[LuisDantas]

That to the least depends on the religion.

To a large degree. But not a decisive one, from what I have seen. Well, maybe it is decisive with particularly extreme faiths, but it is misleading and dangerous to focus on them.

A significant problem that I see is that many people utterly fail to employ due attention and criticism on people and organizations that are supposed to be religious. That enables quite a lot of abuse, including of the parental variety.

Also on the culture.

Yes, in theory, hell exists in catholic teachings, but as a kid I was bound to believe you had to be "really really really reallly really really REALLY reall really bad" to go to hell. And even then if you tell god you are sorry its all okay. And even if you are not he will give youa chan... Well you get the vibe.

That is all fine and good, but how safe is it to extrapolate from that?

 

[Me Myself]

To a large degree. But not a decisive one, from what I have seen. Well, maybe it is decisive with particularly extreme faiths, but it is misleading and dangerous to focus on them.

A significant problem that I see is that many people utterly fail to employ due attention and criticism on people and organizations that are supposed to be religious. That enables quite a lot of abuse, including of the parental variety.



That is all fine and good, but how safe is it to extrapolate from that?

The thing is that if it were true it would be best if the kids new about it. Which is why I have the belief that such aelief in eternal torment is cancer in the first place.

Its not immoral to teach it if you think thats true ( furthermore, it would be immmoral if you didnt) .

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That to the least depends on the religion.

Also on the culture.

Yes, in theory, hell exists in catholic teachings, but as a kid I was bound to believe you had to be "really really really reallly really really REALLY reall really bad" to go to hell. And even then if you tell god you are sorry its all okay. And even if you are not he will give youa chan... Well you get the vibe.

Yes: you think that even if a religion preaches indoctrination and nasty things, if you only pay lip-service to its doctrine, then this is okay.

I just came to really think about hell when on my teens, but normal social interaction with others would tell you most others dont believe in it either, even when it is allegedly part of catholic teachings, and again that if they did it is for the " r r r r ... Bad" like hitler or something.

The only thing religion made for me then was that I liked e values, I liked Jesus and I could pray which I enjoyed, and I prayed thanks every night, which I think was very good for me.

So you don't believe it, but you think it's a good idea to raise kids to believe it? Are there other things you think are false that you would want to teach to kids?

 

[Curious George]

It is not complicated. Parents often use religion as both a weapon and a justification for some particularly nasty forms of abuse.

Yes but because some use religion as a weapon does not mean that all parents do.

 

[Me Myself]

Yes: you think that even if a religion preaches indoctrination and nasty things, if you only pay lip-service to its doctrine, then this is okay.


So you don't believe it, but you think it's a good idea to raise kids to believe it? Are there other things you think are false that you would want to teach to kids?

Both of your readings are so wrong I am too lazy to try to imagine how you made it to take it that way.

You may if you will re-read and repostulate, if not , that's cool too.

But both of those readings seem as related to what I ve said as if you had made them from random association :s

 

[Curious George]

Isn't the fact that religious socialization alone involves threats of eternal hellfire enough for starters?

No. That is one specific form of religious indoctrination. One specific form is hardly indicative of all religious indoctrination.

You are obviously griping about specific religious beliefs. For you to extrapolate and assume that all religious indoctrination follows the same path indicates how poorly thought out your argument is.

 

[LuisDantas]

The thing is that if it were true it would be best if the kids new about it. Which is why I have the belief that such aelief in eternal torment is cancer in the first place.

Agreed.

Its not immoral to teach it if you think thats true ( furthermore, it would be immmoral if you didnt) .

Nope. Rather, it is instead immoral to hold such an irresponsible belief in the first place, at least if one is considering living in society and even raising children.

Religious belief has a lot more of moral consequences than most people admit.