Why Praise God When He's The One Who Brought Coronavirus To Us?

[Trailblazer]

It has everything to do with God's perfection ─ the perfect God will never have an occasion to change [his] mind, revisit [his] decision.

Who said God made up His mind at creation? Who said God made a final decision about anything?
You create your own personal theology as if you actually have an inside line to God, but you don't.

You look at two attributes of God -- omniscience and omnipotence -- and then you think that you know all about how God operates, but you conveniently omit the fact that God gave humans free will because it completely trashes your argument.

In the case of our universe, [he]'s already done it, from Big Bang to however it ends.

Who says it ends there? How do you think you can know what God is doing or plans to do?
Just because God finished creating that does not mean God cannot intervene in the world after that. An omnipotent God has no limitations whatsoever.

Either he's talking about the not-omni model or he's mistaken. The perfect God never has occasion to to revisit [his] decisions.

I never said that God revisits His decisions. I said that Baha’u’llah wrote about God that the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will and God does whatsoever He chooses. How do you think you know that God made any final decisions? Have you had direct communication from God as Baha’u’llah has had?

That's untenable. The omni-God created the universe in THIS exact form knowing and therefore intending and being directly responsible for everything that ever happens as a result of [his] action. [He]'s perfect so there isn't, there can't be, even one teensy exception.

Of course the All-Knowing God created the universe in THIS exact form knowing what humans would decide to do in it. Moreover, as soon as God gave humans free will humans became directly responsible for what happened on earth. God is not responsible for anything except for creating the earth as He created it.

Give it up for lost. Every rational person knows that humans are responsible for their own actions, whether they are a believer or an atheist.

There was nothing [he] didn't perfectly foresee, nothing that [he] didn't intend, nothing that isn't [his] direct and sole responsibility. As I said, ALL bucks stop at the desk of the omni-God, without a single exception.

There was nothing God didn't perfectly foresee, but there is plenty that God didn't intend, that being every single action of every single human on earth.

There is nothing that is God’s direct and sole responsibility except the creation of the universe. After God created this world everything that has happened in this world has been the direct and sole responsibility of humans.

After the world was created ALL bucks stopped at the desk of humans, without a single exception.

God has always sent Messengers as promised and that was not even His responsibility, it was a gift. The Covenant God made with man is that He would send Messengers but it is the responsibility of humans to recognize the Messengers and follow their teachings and laws. If humans had lived up to their end of the bargain there would be no evil in this world, but because many people rejected God’s Messengers there is still evil in this world. All evil that exists in this world is caused by humans who do not follow God’s teachings and laws.

What you are doing is called passing the buck to God in order to abdicate human responsibility but it will not work because it is completely illogical and has no basis in reality.

I would start a new thread about this if I had time but I am too busy right now.

 

[whosetosay...]

I don't get it. I read a lot of COVID long haulers stories of ongoing suffering and misery on several forums (people whose symptoms mild and severe linger months possibly years after finally testing negative). Many to most ask for prayers to get over it and a few who praise God when they do--only to fall ill against weeks or months later in many cases.

What I don't get is the Bible says this:

I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7

Does evil exist in the absence of good? God created Satan and he created man. All have free will. Does Good and Evil exist because of Satan and man or would they if absent?

God can make the difference only when people let him. China is said to have been the creator of this disease.
Are we really going to blame God for man and Satan being evil. Did they not all get the same chances?

If you are to provide arguments 'for' and 'against' we can debate them. But blanket statements based on assumptions do not convince anyone who actually has read these passages within the context and understanding they were written.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Does evil exist in the absence of good? God created Satan and he created man. All have free will. Does Good and Evil exist because of Satan and man or would they if absent?

God can make the difference only when people let him. China is said to have been the creator of this disease.
Are we really going to blame God for man and Satan being evil. Did they not all get the same chances?

If you are to provide arguments 'for' and 'against' we can debate them. But blanket statements based on assumptions do not convince anyone who actually has read these passages within the context and understanding they were written.

So who's running the show around here--man or God? At whose desk does the buck stop--man's or God's? Let's debate that.

 

[whosetosay...]

So who's running the show around here--man or God? At whose desk does the buck stop--man's or God's? Let's debate that.

The answer is very simple.
Isaiah 46:10

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

The book of life was written before the foundation of the world.

Daniel 12:1

King James Version

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

You appear to not know what is actually written. All that is or will be is known to God, You have a choice to do right or wrong and no one can make that choice for you. God knowing everything including what we will say before we say it, is not about him causing us to do it. It is about him giving us free will and him being able to know us so well he knows the outcome before it happens.

 

[blü 2]

Who said God made up His mind at creation?

Anyone who claims God is perfect has already made that claim.

You look at two attributes of God -- omniscience and omnipotence -- and then you think that you know all about how God operates, but you conveniently omit the fact that God gave humans free will because it completely trashes your argument.

Talk me through it. Will I choose the red box or the blue box? For 14 bn years God has known with 100% certainty I'll choose the blue box.I choose the blue box. What choice did I actually have? It was impossible for me to choose the red box. The sense of a choice is entirely illusory when only one result is possible.

I never said that God revisits His decisions. I said that Baha’u’llah wrote about God that the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will and God does whatsoever He chooses. How do you think you know that God made any final decisions?

Because [he]'s perfect, of course.

Of course, as I constantly point out, if [he]'s not omni, not perfect, then we're back discussing the physics of free will, not the theology.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

The answer is very simple.
Isaiah 46:10

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

The book of life was written before the foundation of the world.

Daniel 12:1

King James Version

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

You appear to not know what is actually written. All that is or will be is known to God, You have a choice to do right or wrong and no one can make that choice for you. God knowing everything including what we will say before we say it, is not about him causing us to do it. It is about him giving us free will and him being able to know us so well he knows the outcome before it happens.

Well then, if the buck stops at God's desk, not mans, then why isn't He stepping up to the plate and taking responsibility for His creation? Why is He always trying to pass the buck to man, saying He's helpless to do anything without man's cooperation? Why kind of an impotent God is He anyway?

I think your argument is the typical apologetic for God's inaction. Christians always put the blame on man's free will when the truth is man doesn't have free will. Everything has already been decided by God. Man is only carrying out what God has preordained he's going to do.

 

[whosetosay...]

Well then, if the buck stops at God's desk, not mans, then why isn't He stepping up to the plate and taking responsibility for His creation? Why is He always trying to pass the buck to man, saying He's helpless to do anything without man's cooperation? Why kind of an impotent God is He anyway?

This reply shows that you have not read what I wrote. Could it be you are angry with yourself because you ask for answers which were in front of you all the time you had a faith. Can you be sure you ever were capable of understanding the faith you claim to have once held. Maybe, you cannot understand because your heart and mind is closed to the truths of a faith you once professed.

I think your argument is the typical apologetic for God's inaction. Christians always put the blame on man's free will when the truth is man doesn't have free will. Everything has already been decided by God. Man is only carrying out what God has preordained he's going to do.

So you are telling me that the actions of every man and woman born contribute to the end events? If that were so, what do those infants who die at birth contribute? So how did you become an unbeliever if it is Gods will for all to be saved? Your logic is faulty because it cannot be both ways. ONLY YOU can make the choice to believe or not believe. You should never repeat man made arguments from others.Take time to think through what you are saying and make your own answers

 

[Trailblazer]

Does evil exist in the absence of good? God created Satan and he created man. All have free will. Does Good and Evil exist because of Satan and man or would they if absent?

God can make the difference only when people let him. China is said to have been the creator of this disease.
Are we really going to blame God for man and Satan being evil. Did they not all get the same chances?

If you are to provide arguments 'for' and 'against' we can debate them. But blanket statements based on assumptions do not convince anyone who actually has read these passages within the context and understanding they were written.

Welcome to the forum.
I agree with everything you said about God and free will, except that I do not believe that God created Satan, because I do not believe Satan is a real entity. I believe that Satan represents the lower selfish material nature of man, as opposed to man's higher spiritual nature.

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

The way I interpret those verses is that Jesus was not talking to a real entity called Satan; Jesus was saying to Peter that the things that are not of God but are rather of men (selfish desires) are offensive to Him. Then Jesus tells His disciples to deny their selfish desires and to follow in His Way. For whoever will live for their selfish desires shall lose his eternal life, but whoever will sacrifice his life for the sake of Jesus and God shall gain eternal life. It is the soul that gets eternal life, not the body.

So if we live for self and the worldly things we gain the world but we lose our soul in the sense that we lose eternal life.

 

[Trailblazer]

So who's running the show around here--man or God? At whose desk does the buck stop--man's or God's? Let's debate that.

I believe the buck stops with man because man has free will; so man is running the show, but I see you already read what I said about that earlier.

Do you see God anywhere? I sure don't. There is no reason to believe that God is 'running' anything. I believe that humans are dependent upon God in order to run their own show, but that is a different subject.

"Also the inaction or the movement of man depend upon the assistance of God. If he is not aided, he is not able to do either good or evil. But when the help of existence comes from the Generous Lord, he is able to do both good and evil; but if the help is cut off, he remains absolutely helpless. This is why in the Holy Books they speak of the help and assistance of God."
Some Answered Questions, p. 249

The full explanation is covered in this short chapter: 70: FREE WILL

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: Who said God made up His mind at creation?

Anyone who claims God is perfect has already made that claim.

Yet you cannot explain why a perfect God would have to make up His mind at creation.

Being perfect has nothing to do with being All-Knowing.

God knew everything that would ever happen in His creation at creation start to finish because God is All-Knowing. However, as time in this world goes on God can alter what He already knew He would alter according to what humans decide to do.

Trailblazer said: You look at two attributes of God -- omniscience and omnipotence -- and then you think that you know all about how God operates, but you conveniently omit the fact that God gave humans free will because it completely trashes your argument.

Talk me through it. Will I choose the red box or the blue box? For 14 bn years God has known with 100% certainty I'll choose the blue box. I choose the blue box. What choice did I actually have? It was impossible for me to choose the red box. The sense of a choice is entirely illusory when only one result is possible.

You will choose the blue box but not because God knows you will choose the blue box. What God knows you will choose is not what causes you to choose it. You are able to choose the blue box over the red box because you have free will. If you had chosen the red box God would have known you were going to choose the red box because God is All-Knowing. God did not determine what you would choose the blue box by knowing that you would choose it.

Trailblazer said: How do you think you know that God made any final decisions?

Because [he]'s perfect, of course.

There is no correlation whatsoever between God’s perfection and God making a final decision. God decides what He will do according to what humans decide to do so no decision is ever final since humans are constantly changing their minds. That is why there is always hope of getting God’s mercy if we reach out for it.

An omnipotent God can change His mind at any time. Of course, since God is also omniscient, God always knew He would be changing His mind.

 

[whosetosay...]

Thank you for the welcome Trailblazer.

Welcome to the forum.
I agree with everything you said about God and free will, except that I do not believe that God created Satan, because I do not believe Satan is a real entity. I believe that Satan represents the lower selfish material nature of man, as opposed to man's higher spiritual nature.

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

The way I interpret those verses is that Jesus was not talking to a real entity called Satan; Jesus was saying to Peter that the things that are not of God but are rather of men (selfish desires) are offensive to Him. Then Jesus tells His disciples to deny their selfish desires and to follow in His Way. For whoever will live for their selfish desires shall lose his eternal life, but whoever will sacrifice his life for the sake of Jesus and God shall gain eternal life. It is the soul that gets eternal life, not the body.

So if we live for self and the worldly things we gain the world but we lose our soul in the sense that we lose eternal life.

Having read and considered your belief and the basis in the word I am reminded what Gods word taught before Christ came. Job 1 reveals a truth about the Sons of God and Satan presenting themselves.

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.


7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.


8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Revelation 20:10, KJV: "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

The fact is only God can throw both body and soul into hell. But the body is still fallen and the new body comes when the dead are raised. You cannot throw an idea into hell. Love of truth and being in the Spirit leads a person to come nearer to God.Eternal life is not lost but eternal shame gained for those who do not listen to Christ. We have different views of Satan but loving God and others in Christ is the only way forward. Once again thanks for your welcome and for your reply. <><

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I believe the buck stops with man because man has free will; so man is running the show, but I see you already read what I said about that earlier.

Do you see God anywhere? I sure don't. There is no reason to believe that God is 'running' anything. I believe that humans are dependent upon God in order to run their own show, but that is a different subject.

"Also the inaction or the movement of man depend upon the assistance of God. If he is not aided, he is not able to do either good or evil. But when the help of existence comes from the Generous Lord, he is able to do both good and evil; but if the help is cut off, he remains absolutely helpless. This is why in the Holy Books they speak of the help and assistance of God."
Some Answered Questions, p. 249

The full explanation is covered in this short chapter: 70: FREE WILL

Of course in reality you're right, Trailblazer. man IS running the show because in my universe God is a deist God. He doesn't get involved in the world's affairs at all. He's AWOL. But in the Christian universe He SHOULD be the one running things IMHO because He's the parent, we're the children. Any parent who lets their kids run helter-skelter around the house--well, I don't think I have to tell you parents out there what would happen to the house if they did. It's look something like the world does today.

 

[Trailblazer]

Having read and considered your belief and the basis in the word I am reminded what Gods word taught before Christ came. Job 1 reveals a truth about the Sons of God and Satan presenting themselves.

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Revelation 20:10, KJV: "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

As I said before I do not believe that Satan is a real entity that exists, I believe Satan is an allegorical figure that represents the lower selfish nature of man. I should also tell you that I am not very familiar with the Bible because I was never a Christian, but I believe that much of the Old Testament is people who wrote about what God said and did, not necessarily what God actually said or did. I guess what I am trying to say is that I believe these are stories about God, rather than a revelation direct from God that was written by an actual Messenger of God. And it is a known fact that the New Testament came to us by way of oral tradition, so it is not the exact words of Jesus or even the disciples, because it was written by unnamed authors.

The fact is only God can throw both body and soul into hell. But the body is still fallen and the new body comes when the dead are raised. You cannot throw an idea into hell. Love of truth and being in the Spirit leads a person to come nearer to God.Eternal life is not lost but eternal shame gained for those who do not listen to Christ. We have different views of Satan but loving God and others in Christ is the only way forward. Once again thanks for your welcome and for your reply. <><

I do not believe that anyone is 'thrown on hell.' I do not even believe that hell is a place but rather it is a state of the soul that is far from God, just as heaven is a state of the soul that is near to God; and since I believe in free will, I believe we determine if we will end up in heaven or hell by own own beliefs and actions, not by God's doing.

I agree that love of truth and being in the Spirit leads a person to come nearer to God.and I believe that gaining eternal life is by being close to God. Since Jesus was the way to draw near to God then Jesus was the way to gain eternal life. That is why Jesus said:

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Is really no different from what Baha'u'llah wrote....

“O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p.169

“No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 183

Eternal life is not lost but eternal shame gained for those who do not listen to Christ.

I believe in Jesus and that He was sent by God as that is a requirement of my religion, but I also believe that in this new age eternal life comes to those who listen to Baha'u'llah, who was the Messenger of God for this age.

John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

Is really no different from what Baha'u'llah wrote....

“Thou hast gained admittance into the Paradise of God’s Remembrance, through thy recognition of Him Who is the Embodiment of that Remembrance amongst men.” Gleanings p. 303

Only the times have changes and since the times have changed the needs of humanity have changed so God sent Baha'u'llah. I believe that 'the way' God wants us to come to God in this new age is Baha'u'llah, which in no way precludes knowing and loving God through Jesus, as both brought the Holy Spirit to the world.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course in reality you're right, Trailblazer. man IS running the show because in my universe God is a deist God. He doesn't get involved in the world's affairs at all. He's AWOL. But in the Christian universe He SHOULD be the one running things IMHO because He's the parent, we're the children. Any parent who lets their kids run helter-skelter around the house--well, I don't think I have to tell you parents out there what would happen to the house if they did. It's look something like the world does today.

As I have told you before, I believe that God is more personal than the deist God but God is not as personal as the Christian God. I believe that God is watching over us and guiding us but I do not believe that God is running things, nor do I believe that is God's responsibility to do so. Because humans have free will we are responsible for our own lives. I do not believe the Father/Child analogy works because adults are not children, so we are fully responsible for our own actions.

Even though we share the belief that God is is a personal God, the Baha'i conception of God is different from the Christian conception.

God in the Baháʼí Faith
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Baháʼí view of God is essentially monotheistic. God is the imperishable, uncreated being who is the source of all existence.[1] He is described as "a personal God, unknowable, inaccessible, the source of all Revelation, eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and almighty".[2][3] Though transcendent and inaccessible directly, his image is reflected in his creation. The purpose of creation is for the created to have the capacity to know and love its creator.[4] God communicates his will and purpose to humanity through intermediaries, known as Manifestations of God, who are the prophets and messengers that have founded religions from prehistoric times up to the present day.[5]

The Baháʼí teachings state that there is only one God and that his essence is absolutely inaccessible from the physical realm of existence and that, therefore, his reality is completely unknowable. Thus, all of humanity's conceptions of God which have been derived throughout history are mere manifestations of the human mind and not at all reflective of the nature of God's essence. While God's essence is inaccessible, a subordinate form of knowledge is available by way of mediation by divine messengers, known as Manifestations of God.

While the Baháʼí writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2] Shoghi Effendi writes:

What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[15][16]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_the_Bahai Faith

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

As I have told you before, I believe that God is more personal than the deist God but God is not as personal as the Christian God. I believe that God is watching over us and guiding us but I do not believe that God is running things, nor do I believe that is God's responsibility to do so. Because humans have free will we are responsible for our own lives. I do not believe the Father/Child analogy works because adults are not children, so we are fully responsible for our own actions.

Even though we share the belief that God is is a personal God, the Baha'i conception of God is different from the Christian conception.

God in the Baháʼí Faith
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Baháʼí view of God is essentially monotheistic. God is the imperishable, uncreated being who is the source of all existence.[1] He is described as "a personal God, unknowable, inaccessible, the source of all Revelation, eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and almighty".[2][3] Though transcendent and inaccessible directly, his image is reflected in his creation. The purpose of creation is for the created to have the capacity to know and love its creator.[4] God communicates his will and purpose to humanity through intermediaries, known as Manifestations of God, who are the prophets and messengers that have founded religions from prehistoric times up to the present day.[5]

The Baháʼí teachings state that there is only one God and that his essence is absolutely inaccessible from the physical realm of existence and that, therefore, his reality is completely unknowable. Thus, all of humanity's conceptions of God which have been derived throughout history are mere manifestations of the human mind and not at all reflective of the nature of God's essence. While God's essence is inaccessible, a subordinate form of knowledge is available by way of mediation by divine messengers, known as Manifestations of God.

While the Baháʼí writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2] Shoghi Effendi writes:

What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[15][16]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_the_Bahai Faith

For me, personally, I look around the world. I see levels of suffering, dying, torture and death--and when I say "dying" I don't just mean a quick merciful mostly painless death; I mean protracted long drawn out deaths that stretch over weeks and months in most cases and involve degrees of pain unimaginable for most of us.

Most of you statistically will die from one of the below. All involve slow debilitating often extremely painful decline until you go into a coma and linger there for days before expiring.

If God is involved in this He is definitely a sadist. The only other logical choice is that He is not involved at all and then we can excuse Him from any responsibility for the horrors nature inflicts on humans and animals. Of the 8 top ways you're likely to die below, ALL of them involve dying slow protracted painful deaths--made worse by doctor's reluctance if not outright refusal to prescribe opiates to control the pain because of fear of the DEA:

The following data is taken from the CDC's 2017 report .

• Heart disease. Number of deaths per year: 635,260. ...
• Cancer. Number of deaths per year: 598,038. ...
• Accidents (unintentional injuries) Number of deaths per year: 161,374. ...
• Chronic lower respiratory diseases. ...
• Stroke. ...
• Alzheimer's disease. ...
• Diabetes. ...
• Influenza and pneumonia.

As I said, if God is involved in any of this He's anything but loving. He's more like a Hannibal Lector. It's more merciful to conclude God has nothing to do with this.

 

[Trailblazer]

For me, personally, I look around the world. I see levels of suffering, dying, torture and death--and when I say "dying" I don't just mean a quick merciful mostly painless death; I mean protracted long drawn out deaths that stretch over weeks and months in most cases and involve degrees of pain unimaginable for most of us.

If God is involved in this He is definitely a sadist. The only other logical choice is that He is not involved at all and then we can excuse Him from any responsibility for the horrors nature inflicts on humans and animals.

As I said, if God is involved in any of this He's anything but loving. He's more like a Hannibal Lector. It's more merciful to conclude God has nothing to do with this.

If I thought God was involved in any of this I could not even believe in God at all, and I don't think I would even be a deist.
I do not believe God is involved in any of this but since God created a world in which these things can and do happen I hold God partly responsible for their existence.
I believe that God is merciful and loving because of what Baha'u'llah wrote but I take issue with God being all-loving.

The suffering I have endured in my life and still do would probably make most people into an nonbeliever or a suicide statistic but the way I deal with it in my mind is that I believe that this world is very temporary, not our permanent home. The other way I deal with it is by coming to this forum ans yakking about it with people like you. I also firmly believe what Baha'u'llah wrote below.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

If I thought God was involved in any of this I could not even believe in God at all, and I don't think I would even be a deist.
I do not believe God is involved in any of this but since God created a world in which there things can and do happen I hold God partly responsible for their existence.
I believe that God is merciful and loving because of what Baha'u'llah wrote but I take issue with God being all-loving.

The suffering I have endured in my life and still do would probably make most people into an nonbeliever or a suicide statistic but the way I deal with it in my mind is that I believe that this world is very temporary, not our permanent home. The other way I deal with it is by coming to this forum ans yakking about it with people like you. I also firmly believe what Baha'u'llah wrote below.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

I'm always here to yak. I think deism saved me from atheism. I don't want to be an atheist. I'd like to think there is a power that created all the biological complexity around us. But I have irretrievably lost my belief in an afterlife. it would take something really powerful to make me believe in it again.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm always here to yak. I think deism saved me from atheism. I don't want to be an atheist. I'd like to think there is a power that created all the biological complexity around us. But I have irretrievably lost my belief in an afterlife. it would take something really powerful to make me believe in it again.

That's good that you are always here to yak with and you are a motivating factor that keeps me posting here. It was starting to get boring till you came around and started new threads, as it had diverted off into politics and I am not very interested in politics.

As I probably told you before, I am not always sure God is loving but I do not worry about that as much as I used to because unlike Christians I was never a believer because I needed to be loved by God or Jesus. I have always been a believer because of the evidence I see for Baha'u'llah being a Messenger of God. Before I became a Bahai I had no belief in God and no interest in God.

I think that deism is preferable to atheism and it is a respectable position.

I guess that when you used to be a Christian you believed in an afterlife but it was no doubt very different from the Baha'i version of the afterlife. Religion is not required in order to believe there is an afterlife as there are nonreligious people who believe in an afterlife. I do not know what it would take to get you back on board believing in an afterlife but I am always here to help in any way I can. I am 100% certain that God exists and 100% certain that there is an afterlife, it is just some of God's attributes that I am not so sure about.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

That's good that you are always here to yak with and you are a motivating factor that keeps me posting here. It was starting to get boring till you came around and started new threads, as it had diverted off into politics and I am not very interested in politics.

As I probably told you before, I am not always sure God is loving but I do not worry about that as much as I used to because unlike Christians I was never a believer because I needed to be loved by God or Jesus. I have always been a believer because of the evidence I see for Baha'u'llah being a Messenger of God. Before I became a Bahai I had no belief in God and no interest in God.

I think that deism is preferable to atheism and it is a respectable position.

I guess that when you used to be a Christian you believed in an afterlife but it was no doubt very different from the Baha'i version of the afterlife. Religion is not required in order to believe there is an afterlife as there are nonreligious people who believe in an afterlife. I do not know what it would take to get you back on board believing in an afterlife but I am always here to help in any way I can. I am 100% certain that God exists and 100% certain that there is an afterlife, it is just some of God's attributes that I am not so sure about.

Bold above: Likewise.

Re afterlife: yes, I used to believe in it and don't discount that there might be something after we die. But the problem is the NDE's I read about have so many holes in them it makes me less able to take them seriously. Many people are Christian. That's suspect going out the gate. They're trying to sell hell as disbelievers' destiny. Many are selling books. Others conflict so badly with other NDE's there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to the patterns. And a dozen other reasons to doubt they're real.

What would convince me there's an afterlife would be to go to a seance and have the medium tell me a long-dead friend is communicating a fact nobody else knew and then tell me that fact. Another way would be to read dozens of veridical accounts that could be truthfully and accurately verified. Example: "I popped out of my body. My spirit went into the lobby of the hospital. I head a conversation between a policeman and a visitor and the visitor said "bla bla" and then the policeman said "bla bla" and then arrested him. A few dozen cases like that that have been verified by witnesses with no dog in the race would probably change my mind.

 

[Trailblazer]

Re afterlife: yes, I used to believe in it and don't discount that there might be something after we die. But the problem is the NDE's I read about have so many holes in them it makes me less able to take them seriously. Many people are Christian. That's suspect going out the gate. They're trying to sell hell as disbelievers' destiny. Many are selling books. Others conflict so badly with other NDE's there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to the patterns. And a dozen other reasons to doubt they're real.

I don't think that NDEs are proof of an afterlife because those people were not fully dead so they never really crossed over to the spiritual world. Those people might have gotten a glimpse of it, a preview, but that is not the same as being there. NDEs do offer evidence that consciousness can exist outside the body after the brain is no longer functioning, NDEs offer some evidence of the soul that is responsible for consciousness continues to exist separate from the body, which is a Baha'i belief.

It makes logical sense that NDE experiences would differ between people because people are all different and led different lives. I believe we reap what we sow so people who led noble lives caring about others will have a very positive experience whereas people who were selfish or evil might have a hellish experience, and that is exactly what has been reported in the NDE literature.

What would convince me there's an afterlife would be to go to a seance and have the medium tell me a long-dead friend is communicating a fact nobody else knew and then tell me that fact.

This sort of thing has occurred when spirits communicated to mediums and you can read about it in the second book I listed below. As I recall it is in the Foreword to the book so you would have to buy the book in order to read how these communications from spirits were verified.

Another way would be to read dozens of veridical accounts that could be truthfully and accurately verified. Example: "I popped out of my body. My spirit went into the lobby of the hospital. I head a conversation between a policeman and a visitor and the visitor said "bla bla" and then the policeman said "bla bla" and then arrested him. A few dozen cases like that that have been verified by witnesses with no dog in the race would probably change my mind.

I think that there are accounts of such things happening in some of the NDE literature, but again NDEers were not fully dead, so that is only proof of consciousness outside of the body.

Below are links to the three books I have read that describe what happens when we die and what spirits (souls) experience in the spiritual world. I like the first book because it is short and easy to read online and what he communicates is very interesting because it touches upon what is the purpose of this life and what is not. His apt description of hell is not pretty at all but it is not a Christian hell. This book covers only one man's experience over a period of time as he settled into being in the spiritual world.

The second book covers the experiences of many different spirits and also goes into more detail about the death process. the author does not come from any religious perspective and he pokes fun of the Christian idea of heaven, it is so funny.

The third book was written by a Christian who broke away from orthodox Christianity and claimed to have experienced heaven and hell for many years. The book goes into much more detail than the other two books and I am not convinced it is totally accurate although I think it does a good job of explaining the difference between heaven and hell, and how and why we end up there. He does cite the Bible and he supports his beliefs with scriptures. The book can be purchased or read online.

1. Private Dowding
2. The Afterlife Revealed
3. Heaven and Hell