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Why Quran was revealed After Bible?
- Thread starter InvestigateTruth
- Start date
Dingbat
Avatar of Brittania
Indeed, the Injil IIRC is the original message from the Prophet Isa (PBUH). The Four Gospels contain fragments of his message but not the entire whole.
seeking4truth
Active Member
"The" Bible" was not "revealed" nor had Jesus any thing to do with the writing of it.
It is an edited Library of selected Christian writings, letters and scriptures."
Partly true.
Among the selected writings which comprise the Bible are texts recording revelation as well as Jesus own thoughts and teachings. They were recorded during his lifetime and compiled on scrolls - many have found their way into Jewish religious texts, many are included in the Bible and others exist in apochryphal and pseudapygraphal (excuse spelling!!) work.
Teachings of Jesus even found their way into Mandean, Hindu, Bhuddist and other religious texts.
It is an edited Library of selected Christian writings, letters and scriptures."
Partly true.
Among the selected writings which comprise the Bible are texts recording revelation as well as Jesus own thoughts and teachings. They were recorded during his lifetime and compiled on scrolls - many have found their way into Jewish religious texts, many are included in the Bible and others exist in apochryphal and pseudapygraphal (excuse spelling!!) work.
Teachings of Jesus even found their way into Mandean, Hindu, Bhuddist and other religious texts.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
First of all, most Christians don't think the bible was "revealed." They claim it was written -- by human beings. Second, the NT is not a "renewal" of the OT. Nor is it a replacement of the OT. There's nothing wrong with the Hebrew texts that requires either renewal or replacement with narrative and letters.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
This and not to forget muslims belief that the Injil was only for that community and time.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Well, Perhaps some Christians believe, it is a literal, infallible word of God?
The Baha'is also don't believe, The Bible which is Written, is a direct revelation, but it is inspired by God, in a sense, that the Disciples were inspired, through Jesus, as well as they saw dreams and vissions.
Offcourse. There is no Book that was ever written by God Himself.
I agree. But i believe it is teaching the same principles again.
By renewal, I mean, to remind the same principles.
Well, It is not a replacement as a whole. But parts of the OT Laws, are abrogated, or Modified, or added to it, by NT.
For example, OT allows Jews to divorce their wife. According to NT, that is not allowed [at least in the same way OT does].
See, conversation of Jesus with those jews, when Jesus said to them, Moses allowed you to divorce, because your hearts were hard, but I say unto you...
I agree with this.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
How are they different, if you please elaborate.
I am not disagreeing with you, but I would like to see, how the Injil and Bible are different in your view.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
What do you mean by "that community"?
That community, refers to a country? a city? an empire? a number of countries?
Please clear for me.
What do you also mean by "that time" . How long was that time, from when to when?
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
What I am more interested in this thread, is really NOT: if Bible is corrupted or not corrupted, or if it was from God, or even Jesus was God, prophet, or even the true Messiah or not.
I am interested, to hear from those who believe, Injil and Torah got modified and changed at some point or from beginning, to explain the scenario of How and When, and Why and By Who those two Books got modified and corrupted.
I hope this is clear, what I mean by scenario.
Let me give you an imaginary and hypothetical scenario which I just made it up:
When the Injil was written for the first time, it was all correct and original. That Injil was written by the hand of Jesus. When He left the world, there was only one copy of it, maintained in a room, which was locked to keep it safe. Some people at night made a conspiracy, and went secretly in the room, and replaced the Injil, with what they had written. But because, there was only one copy of it, No body ever knew it. Thus, for centuries the Christians followed that man-made Book and believed it was the original.
As regards to Torah, The Prophets of Jews did not know reading and writing. So, they asked scribes to write what God had told them. However, the scribes wrote the Book the way the liked it, and not the way as the Prophet was telling them to write. Since the Prophets did not know reading, they were unaware of this. Thus, for centuries the Jews were following the corrupted Torah.
Of course, this is a fake scenario, but I am waiting to know, the True scenario, how it was corrupted.(How and When, and Why and By Who )
I am interested, to hear from those who believe, Injil and Torah got modified and changed at some point or from beginning, to explain the scenario of How and When, and Why and By Who those two Books got modified and corrupted.
I hope this is clear, what I mean by scenario.
Let me give you an imaginary and hypothetical scenario which I just made it up:
When the Injil was written for the first time, it was all correct and original. That Injil was written by the hand of Jesus. When He left the world, there was only one copy of it, maintained in a room, which was locked to keep it safe. Some people at night made a conspiracy, and went secretly in the room, and replaced the Injil, with what they had written. But because, there was only one copy of it, No body ever knew it. Thus, for centuries the Christians followed that man-made Book and believed it was the original.
As regards to Torah, The Prophets of Jews did not know reading and writing. So, they asked scribes to write what God had told them. However, the scribes wrote the Book the way the liked it, and not the way as the Prophet was telling them to write. Since the Prophets did not know reading, they were unaware of this. Thus, for centuries the Jews were following the corrupted Torah.
Of course, this is a fake scenario, but I am waiting to know, the True scenario, how it was corrupted.(How and When, and Why and By Who )
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sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Some. But the church, as a whole, has never held that position.
No, it isn't. The OT teaches justification through the Law. The NT teaches reconciliation through grace.
No. Not a replacement. The electric bulb replaced the candle as a source of light. The NT merely "adds more electric current" to the OT, making the same source brighter and more useful.
Lady B
noob
Wow Sojourner, I finally agree with you regarding scripture ! Good Job !
F0uad
Well-Known Member
Well first to clarify the word Injel means Gospel(Good news) not Gospels in the whole quran the word is never used in its plurar form, secondly the Injel was not meant to be written down but memorized, thirdly there are several verses and commentaries directly saying that they have been lost and corrupted.
In Islam we are taught that Messenger's(peace be upon them) were send to certain people to teach them the message of Allah(swt).
5:12-14
Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: "I am with you: if ye (but) establish regular prayers, practise regular charity, believe in my apostles, honour and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path or rectitude."
But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.
From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.
So what Surah 5:12-14 says is that the Jews in the past have corrupted the text and the Christians have forgotten the text we all know that the ''Injeel''' was passed down oraly according to Hadiths and this is a fact regonized by historians and scholars.
More verses:
5:41
O Messenger. let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, "If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!" If any one's trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such - it is not Allah.s will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.
2:174
Those who conceal Allah's revelations in the Book and purchase for them a miserable profit, they swallow into themselves naught but Fire; Allah will not address them on the Day of Resurrection. Nor purify them; Grievous will be their penalty.
3:187
And remember Allah took a covenant from the People of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it; but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And vile was the bargain they made!
4:46
Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say: "We hear and we disobey"; and "Hear what is not Heard"; and "Ra'ina"; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said: "What hear and we obey"; and "Do hear"; and "Do look at us"; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe.
7:162
But the transgressors among them changed the word from that which had been given them so we sent on them a plague from heaven. For that they repeatedly transgressed.
There are more i can go on but you get the idea, i have read the Tasfeer's and Hadiths about these verses and they all conclude the samething it has been corrupted.
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Why had there been eons of polytheism all over the planet? Before the god of monotheism sent one Prophet Abraham to the city of Ur in Mesopotamia now Iraq and all the other prophets are from the Middle East and all happen to be Semites. Strange that this god had no prophets anywhere else. A 600 year gap between messenger prophets in a relatively small area is nothing compared to the vast amounts of Pagans out there who had never heard of the monotheistic god until relatively recently. The sky father god and Earth mother god were universal everywhere to even the most isolated tribes. But Judaism, Christianity and Islam are a comparatively modern religion.
Bismillah
Submit
The basic difference is that the Injil can be thought of, as the Qur'an, as the oratory preaching of God's word as revealed to Jesus alay as salaam. The New Testament within the Bible is considered not to be God's word, but divinely inspired and an account of Jesus' life, sayings, and preaching according to Mark or according to John or Luke etc.Investigate Truth said:
So what I see in the Bible sometimes I think of as similar to a mixture of a Seerah (historical biography of Jesus), ahadith (sayings and actions of Jesus not necessarily concerned with religion but lending insight to his actions, behaviors, and morality), and religious revelation
Also when you are referring to Muslims try and avoid using the term "Moslem" its origins are from an older era of European scholarship that painted Islam, Muslims, and the Near East through an orientalist lens of exotic unknown. Often times people will discredit what you say after and view you as either a product of an anachronistic time period or someone who relies on the faulty scholarship for their views (often for an obvious agenda).
seeking4truth
Active Member
"Why had there been eons of polytheism all over the planet?"
Polytheism developed from monotheism. God revealed Himself to humans and their misconceptions and attempts to understand and express in physical terms what is spiritual resulted in polytheism. Not the other way round.
Please do not base your assumptions on what are in fact only recent written expressions of religious ideas.
eg. our use of the term Him for God relates more to us than to Him but we have to use some words to express what we think.
Polytheism developed from monotheism. God revealed Himself to humans and their misconceptions and attempts to understand and express in physical terms what is spiritual resulted in polytheism. Not the other way round.
Please do not base your assumptions on what are in fact only recent written expressions of religious ideas.
eg. our use of the term Him for God relates more to us than to Him but we have to use some words to express what we think.
seeking4truth
Active Member
"I am interested, to hear from those who believe, Injil and Torah got modified and changed at some point or from beginning, to explain the scenario of How and When, and Why and By Who those two Books got modified and corrupted."
I think the idea of 'corruption' of the Torah and the Injil relates to the understanding of its meaning. It is possible that the text of both still exists; some of it mixed up and included in the books we now call the Bible, some in books thrown out of the New Testament(apochrypha etc), some in the Dead Sea Scrolls and other scrolls found and yet to be found.
The problem is that so many hands have edited these texts that it is very difficult to know for certain which part is Torah or Injil.
The Books of the Torah were kept on scrolls. Jesus followers used such scrolls - whenever Jesus refered to or fulfilled a prophecy from the Torah his scribes added his teachings or revelation onto the bottom of the scrolls related to his teaching. Later when the scrolls were copied out the new copy did not diferentiate between the original and the addition. Of course his followers knew but after so many centuries that knowledge is now unclear or lost.
Jesus community where not accepted by the mainstream Jewish authorities and so he had to form a new community with a new law and new temple as he was commanded to do by God. The old one now no longer listening to God. His community developed outside the control of the Jerusalem Temple and were no trouble to the Roman authorities being law abiding and peaceful citizens. When the rebelious Jews created trouble in Judea the Romans broke up the Temple authority and banned Jewish activities. The Temple treasury was ransacked and its treasure including scrolls removed.
Later when the situation changed and Jews attempted to collect their treasures again the scrolls they used were the ones held by the followers of Jesus - seen as a Jewish sect not as a seperate Christian group.
Hence the duplication of stories and the apparent contradictions in the OT. You have the original story (eg.of Moses) and the retelling of the story as it related to Jesus fulfilling prophecies and the role of Moses in his own time.
I think the idea of 'corruption' of the Torah and the Injil relates to the understanding of its meaning. It is possible that the text of both still exists; some of it mixed up and included in the books we now call the Bible, some in books thrown out of the New Testament(apochrypha etc), some in the Dead Sea Scrolls and other scrolls found and yet to be found.
The problem is that so many hands have edited these texts that it is very difficult to know for certain which part is Torah or Injil.
The Books of the Torah were kept on scrolls. Jesus followers used such scrolls - whenever Jesus refered to or fulfilled a prophecy from the Torah his scribes added his teachings or revelation onto the bottom of the scrolls related to his teaching. Later when the scrolls were copied out the new copy did not diferentiate between the original and the addition. Of course his followers knew but after so many centuries that knowledge is now unclear or lost.
Jesus community where not accepted by the mainstream Jewish authorities and so he had to form a new community with a new law and new temple as he was commanded to do by God. The old one now no longer listening to God. His community developed outside the control of the Jerusalem Temple and were no trouble to the Roman authorities being law abiding and peaceful citizens. When the rebelious Jews created trouble in Judea the Romans broke up the Temple authority and banned Jewish activities. The Temple treasury was ransacked and its treasure including scrolls removed.
Later when the situation changed and Jews attempted to collect their treasures again the scrolls they used were the ones held by the followers of Jesus - seen as a Jewish sect not as a seperate Christian group.
Hence the duplication of stories and the apparent contradictions in the OT. You have the original story (eg.of Moses) and the retelling of the story as it related to Jesus fulfilling prophecies and the role of Moses in his own time.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Dear Foad and Bismillah,
Thank you for this information.
Now, may I ask you regarding the following verses:
"And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous." 5:46
"And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient." 5:47
Is the above verse, addressing the Christians living at the time of Muhammad? If that is the case, and if you say, the Gospel that existed at the time of Muhammad was corrupted, then how could Christians judge correctly by that corrupted Book?
Also in this verse:
"And if only they upheld [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to them from their Lord, they would have consumed [provision] from above them and from beneath their feet. Among them are a moderate community, but many of them - evil is that which they do." 5:66
In the above verse My question is that, if, the Torah and the Gospel were not the Torah and Gospel that God had sent to them, why would God ask them to upheld those Books?
I agree that, perhaps all the knowledge that Jesus was given to Him by God, is not in the Gospel that Christians have. But Could it be that, Gospel is the Name of the Book that Christians was going to have through the Will of God, and God had revealed to Jesus the essencial teachings of the same Book?
Another verse says:
And [remember] when I inspired to the disciples, "Believe in Me and in My messenger Jesus." They said, "We have believed, so bear witness that indeed we are Muslims [in submission to Allah ]." 5:111
The above verse suggests God had inspired the disciples of Christ. The Christians believe the Gospels are written by the Disciples. If that is the case, from this can we not conclude that the Gospels are indeed inspired by God? The Disciples had vissions and dreams as the Gospels suggest. Is it part of Islamic belief that God inspires also through dreams and vissions?
What is your belief regarding this?
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InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Dear Foad and Seeking4Truth,
The word that quran uses in the verses, which Moslems often refer to as indication of changes to Books, is "Tahrif".
According to Moslem Scholar Amin Ahsan, there are 4 types of tahrif:
Amin Ahsan Islahi writes about four types of tahrif:[6]
- To deliberately interpret something in a manner that is totally opposite to the intention of the author. To distort the pronunciation of a word to such an extent that the word changes completely.
- To add to or delete a sentence or discourse in a manner that completely distorts the original meaning. For example, according to Islam, the Jews altered the incident of the migration of the Prophet Abraham in a manner that no one could prove that Abraham had any relationship with the Kaaba.
- To translate a word that has two meanings in the meaning that is totally against the context. For example the Hebrew word that is equivalent to the Arabic ‘ابن’ was translated as ‘son’ whereas it also meant ‘servant’ and ‘slave’.
- To raise questions about something that is absolutely clear in order to create uncertainty about it, or to change it completely.
So, from the above, 3 out of 4 types of tahrif, means misinterpretation, and twisting the meaning, and not changing the actual Text.
In fact, there are evidence that, Prophet Muhammad and early Moslems, did not believe that the actual Text of the Injils or Torah was corrupted. They believed that the meaning of them were twisted and misinterpreted.
Upto 315 years after Muhammad, the recorded Historical evidence show that, the intention of Quran was to say that the Jews and Christians had misinterpreted the Text of their Book. For example:
Al-Bukhari reported that Ibn ‘Abbas (Cousin of Muhammad) said [the Jews] alter and add although none among Allah’s creation can remove the words from His book, they alter and distort their apparent meaning” – with this Hadith it is clear that those who walked with the Prophet (PBUH) believed the text of the Torah was original, while holding the view that the Jews perverted their interpretation.
In the year 796 Abu l-Rabi Muhammad ibn al-Layth (a courtier to Kalif Harun al-Rashid ) penned a letter to Constatine VI stating that the word “tahrif” should be read as the Jews had distorted their sense. “Whoever looks in the books of the prophets will find Muhammad (PBUH) mentioned, but the people of the book have obscured these references by changing their interpretation”. Ibn al-Layth categorically denies the possibility of passages having been added to, or omitted from, the scriptures, and he then goes on to use the text of the Torah as proof of the authenticity of the Torah (a belief both he and the kalif share).
300 year after Muhammad still, Abu Bakr Muhammad ibn al-Tayyib al-Baqillani was of the opinion that the words of Moses were still extant in their Hebrew original and that the Jews had inadvertently made mistakes in their translations.
It is only in later years, that some of Moslems started to say the actual text of the injil or Torah were corrupted.
Source:
http://www.judaism-islam.com/islam-teaches-torah-is-corrupted-tahrif-but-what-does-that-mean/
Thus as regards to the verses Foad is refering, it seems to me, those verses of Quran are mistranslated.
For example the verse 5:41, here is the translation by Muhammad Asad correctly:
"O APOSTLE! Be not grieved by those who vie with one another in denying the truth: such as those who say with their mouths, "We believe," the while their hearts do not believe; and such of the Jewish faith as eagerly listen to any falsehood, eagerly listen to other people without having come to thee [for enlightenment]. They distort the meaning of the [revealed] words, taking them out of their context, saying [to themselves], "If such-and-such [teaching] is vouchsafed unto you, accept it; but if it is not vouchsafed unto you, be on your guard!" [Be not grieved by them-] for if God wills anyone to be tempted to evil, thou canst in no wise prevail with God in his behalf. It is they whose hearts God is not willing to cleanse. Theirs shall be ignominy in this world, and awesome suffering in the life to come-" 5:41
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/5/41/default.htm
As a Moslem, you surely have heard, that, the verses of Quran were revealed gradually to suit the situations and many of the verses were revealed to address the problems of the time of the Prophet.
Thus, whenever we do a Tafseer, we need to know the History, and reason why those verses are revealed. We need to know the story behind the revelation of each verse.
The Verses that Quran revealed regarding "Tahrif" It has to do with writing certain Books and Interpretations regarding Injil or Torah, at the time of Muhammad. You would know that if you do your research as to what was the reason those verses were revealed historically.
Yes, There are verses in Quran that talk about "Modification" and alteration by the Religious Leaders. however, those refer to misinterpretations of ONLY particular cases.
One of them is concerning the penalty of adultery, when the prophet was to explain the penalty of Adultry to some Jewish leaders.
Which the Quran reveals "They distort the meaning of the [revealed] words, taking them out of their context" See Quran 4:44-46
It is clear, in that instance, by perverting the Text is meant "Misinterpretation" and "twisting" as the Torah still contains the verse that says punishment for adultery is death by stone.
Another example is: "A part of them heard the Word of God, and then, after they had understood it, distorted it, and knew that they did so." Quran 2:75
This verse, also indicates that the meaning of the Word of God hath been perverted, not that the actual words in the Text of Bible are changed.
Another example,: "Woe unto those who, with their own hands, transcribe the Book corruptly, and then say: ‘This is from God,’ that they may sell it for some mean price." Quran 2:79
This verse was revealed regarding the Jewish leaders who were living at the time of Muhammad. For they had written false interpretations to refute the claims of Muhammad.
As regrads to 5:13 and 5:14, I believe this is the correct translations, by Asad:
"Then, for having broken their solemn pledge, We rejected them and caused their hearts to harden-[so that now] they distort the meaning of the [re-vealed] words, taking them out of their context; and they have forgotten much of what they had been told to bear in mind; and from all but a few of them thou wilt always experience treachery. But pardon them, and forbear: verily, God loves the doers of good."
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/5/13/default.htm
Thus again, Quran is saying they distorted the meaning of the Text. It does not say, the actual text was distorted. Forgetting the teachings, also does not indicate, it was ommited from the Text of Injil, it can only mean from their mind. They did not care to follow them anymore.
So in my view there is no verse in Quran, that says: "Injil or Torah are corrupted." As a matter of fact there are many verses in Quran that confirms Injil and Torah, which were among them at time of Muhammad are from God, which I have refered to some in post #37.
- Peace
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sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Wow. You should sell this fantasy to Hollywood. You'd be famous.