Why Should Bestiality Be Against The Law?

[Tiberius]

But of course, you wouldn't be suggesting that everyone should base their views of what is sick or not based on the majority, wouldn't you?

 

[nnmartin]

You should just base it on your own internal sense of right and wrong.

Unfortunately, some people aren't capable of telling the difference, therefore we need laws.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And the DSM is supposed to take culture and social acceptance into consideration. Diagnoses are only supposed to be made if the person's behavior/thoughts are causing them a significant level of problems in their daily life. Otherwise it's not a 'problem.'

You'll note the "supposed to" of course, but one does what one can.

That is one of the biggest issues with the DSM is that quite often some of the "disorders" do not cause a significant amount of distress and really aren't that detrimental to someone's daily functions. And cultural differences seem to be largely ignored, or else there would be many more to include those that are found outside of our culture, or far less from excluding the ones that aren't found outside of our culture. Personally I think there should be a separate book that focuses on culture-bound syndromes, especially given that it is likely that a therapist will not be dealing exclusively with people from his or her own culture. This could make it much easier to find information on something like Kitsunetsuki under a sub category of the Japanese culture, rather than pathological possessions as the DSM catagorizes it.

So now we are talking about the whole world are we?

I assume Tiberius and his supporters are from a Western culture where bestiality is considered abnormal, therefore I am focusing the debate on that.

But you cannot understand any culture issue by focusing only on your own culture. How can you not discuss the whole world when debating something that is subject to the views of culture?
Keeping a narrow perspective is not healthy, and actually makes you more prone to culture shock.

If all else fails , then discredit the source!

I'm far from the only one that has. The DSM has been heavily criticized by psychologist and psychiatrist since it's beginning. But also it is more of a tool used for aiding in diagnosing a patient than a Bible on mental disorders.

Are you a qualified psychiatrist?

Actually I am getting closer to becoming a licensed psychologist. I also held in high regards by teachers, and I constantly get high marks for research, solutions to problems, and for having a good understanding of the subject.
But one does not need to be licensed to read a credible text book, research, or journal entries. It may surprise you, but many social science classes in general have an emphasis on how cultures are different, and what we think as bad another thinks as good and vice versa. Take that just another step further and you begin to realize just how much of your own culture is misguided, and how much of it is only artificial.

I am sure much scientific research is put into compiling the DSM so to attempt to write it off because it doesn't allow for your behaviour to be called normal is disengenious at best.

My behavior? It's not my behavior, and my criticisms of the DSM are that it's filled with many holes and inconsistencies. A disorder is supposed to be detrimental to an individuals daily functions, cause psychological distress, be persistent for a length of time, and be statistically rare. Statistically rare is not at all a good criteria because the "rarity" of a disorder can increase or decrease with time.Actually the DSM used to consider homosexuality a disorder even though it's clearly not detrimental to daily living, and may only cause distress while someone is struggling with their identity. The fourth and fifth edition also have a very different approach towards gender identity dysphoria. The fourth edition isn't very hopeful towards a cure, but the fifth suggests that hormones and surgery can cure it.
But really the DSM is a diagnostics tool, not a bible. It's really not even that good for educating yourself about certain disorders because it focuses more on symptoms rather than what each individual disorder is like.

Some cultures allow for children to be assaulted for going to school.

Which is causing distress and physical harm to the child. There is no reason to defend such actions. Or you can debate something like female circumcision. We see it as a horrible thing, but in some cultures it is so important that a woman may succumb to psychological distress if she didn't go through with one. What this thread is discussing is really nothing more than asking if there should be laws governing two animals of different genera having sexual contact. One of these animals has the ability of complexed speech patterns. The other animal may not be able to talk, but there is a good chance it can bite and claw if it doesn't want sex, or get into it's normal sexual positions if it wants it.

We can't just change our laws or force people to accept bestiality as acceptable because other cultures have different norms.

Actually globalization HAS had many places changing laws to accommodate others from foreign lands.

Many of these cultures that you talk about are no doubt in the Third World where there is no rule of law.

You would really be surprised. The ones I mentioned are actually Chinese (feet), Greeks (ankles), and many food foragers and indigenous peoples see breasts as a source of food for the young and nothing more (another aspect of culture, some breast feed there kids until they are four or five years old, whereas here it's hardly over a year if at all). Actually one thing people in third world countries that are impoverished and likely to have insects freely going in and out of there home will sometimes do is have the insects crawl around on their genitals for sexual stimulation. And do not think our own culture is high and mighty, because it is quite often the most evil and vile culture the world has seen. Afterall we are the ones that go to lands of subsistence farmers and demand they cease growing food to feed there families and start growing cash crops. This results in people from our culture making mega profits while a family that was previously well off is now starving and deeply impoverished. Our culture says it's ok because of the profits involved, but many cultures hate us because of it, and our cultures eagerness to go to war and establish dictators has many nations angry with us. But our culture makes heroes of those who devastate and destroy the lives and cultures of others.
So really when debating bestiality and zoophilia (there is a difference) is to debate culture, which really isn't much to be debated when you approach it from a cross-cultural point of view. Even in some cultures royalty was expected to have sex with their own siblings. Medieval Europe made a habit of keeping royalty and nobility blood "pure." But today we see such unions as very bad. Never mind that many celebrated people from recent history married their first cousins, such as Poe and Darwin. But it was just fine in their time.

You should just base it on your own internal sense of right and wrong.

Unfortunately, some people aren't capable of telling the difference, therefore we need laws.

Right and wrong are nothing more than social constructs, just like gender, art, political organization, architect, and just about anything else.
As for laws, many of them are just dumb and do not protect anyone or just protect that bank accounts of the wealthy. In Indiana anal and oral sex are illegal, and if a male over the age of 18 is driving a car and has a female passenger, 16 or younger and without any shoes or socks on, the male can be charged with statutory rape. Pot was made illegal because "it makes the darkies think they are as good as white folk." - Sen. Anslinger. Today pot, along with many other drugs, remain illegal because the justice system became privatized and people are actually making money when people sit in privatized prisons. But of course smoking tobacco is extremely detrimental to health but it's legal. The age of consent ranges from 16-18 (I actually think NAMBLA is correct in saying we need to make the age universal in all states), and for marriage in some states it can be as young as 14 or 15 with parental consent. And in many states same sex marriage is illegal even though there is nothing wrong with it.

 

[Tiberius]

You should just base it on your own internal sense of right and wrong.

Unfortunately, some people aren't capable of telling the difference, therefore we need laws.

I hope you aren't classifying anyone who disagrees with you as "those who can't tell the difference."

Because that wouldn't be very nice, would it?

 

[nnmartin]

Actually one thing people in third world countries that are impoverished and likely to have insects freely going in and out of there home will sometimes do is have the insects crawl around on their genitals for sexual stimulation.

Oh, I see - some people in the world get sexually stimulated by insects crawling over their genitals so we should legalise bestiality in the West.

Why didn't I think of that?

but seriously , do you really want to compare yourself to these kind of people?

And do not think our own culture is high and mighty,

It may have its problems but at least its civilised.

Can you even term the action of insects crawling over your genitals as sex?
'The Hills have Eyes' comes to mind here.

Even in some cultures royalty was expected to have sex with their own siblings. Medieval Europe made a habit of keeping royalty and nobility blood "pure."

Medieval these days if often used as a euphemism for extremely primitive.

Thankfully we have moved on from the Dark Ages.

 

[Tiberius]

Oh, I see - some people in the world get sexually stimulated by insects crawling over their genitals so we should legalise bestiality in the West.

Why didn't I think of that?

but seriously , do you really want to compare yourself to these kind of people?

Do you miss the point intentionally?

The point is that different people have different ideas about what is okay. And if what one person thinks is okay doesn't hurt anyone and doesn't involve anyone against their will, then who are you to say it is wrong?

It may have its problems but at least its civilised.

Can you even term the action of insects crawling over your genitals as sex?
'The Hills have Eyes' comes to mind here.

Once again, you are reduced to the "I think it's icky, so therefore it is wrong" argument.

Medieval these days if often used as a euphemism for extremely primitive.

Thankfully we have moved on from the Dark Ages.

Irrelevant to the topic at hand.

 

[nnmartin]

People in this thread have been talking about the consent issue with animals and I think it's reasonable to say that in a lot of cases you wouldn't really be able to tell whether an animal gave consent or not. I believe that quite often an animal wouldn't really care or put too much thought into the matter.

So this could quite easily be likened to rape.
Now if you were prepared to rape an animal what is stopping you then developing an interest in doing this to a person?

Depravity leads to depravity as I have mentioned many times. Often depraved and illegal acts start with something small and then build up to something more serious.

Bestiality highlights this fact.

What happens when you get bored of the sheep in the field?

 

[internationalist]

This thread shows that Christian morality is the morality.

 

[internationalist]

That anyone would even consider having sex with an animal ... What kind of a depraved soul that must be!

 

[Skwim]

People in this thread have been talking about the consent issue with animals and I think it's reasonable to say that in a lot of cases you wouldn't really be able to tell whether an animal gave consent or not. I believe that quite often an animal wouldn't really care or put too much thought into the matter.
So this could quite easily be likened to rape.
Now if you were prepared to rape an animal what is stopping you then developing an interest in doing this to a person?

But it isn't rape, is it. Rape only takes place between people,

"Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse, which is initiated by one or more persons against another person without that person's consent. The act may be carried out by physical force, coercion, abuse of authority or with a person who is incapable of valid consent. The term is most often defined in criminal law. A person who commits an act of rape is known as a rapist."
Source: wikipedia.
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but nice attempt to redefine it.

Depravity leads to depravity as I have mentioned many times. Often depraved and illegal acts start with something small and then build up to something more serious.

I know what you mean.

↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓

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Bestiality highlights this fact.

As does smoking at a young age.

What happens when you get bored of the sheep in the field?

Well, then all hell breaks loose.

" *Sigh* If only he hadn't found Mary's little lamb so alluring."






​

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Oh, I see - some people in the world get sexually stimulated by insects crawling over their genitals so we should legalise bestiality in the West.

Why didn't I think of that?

No, I'm saying we think that is gross, but they don't. That is the heart of the debate for anything that is based on what society thinks. We would find it appalling for kids who are only about 13 or 14 to get married, and even criminalize it, but it used to be the norm in England a few hundred years ago. And not only that a particular work of art that depicts the tragic romance of two very young teens is highly celebrated in our society and considered a classic.

but seriously , do you really want to compare yourself to these kind of people?
It may have its problems but at least its civilised.

We are not really any more civilized than the Bushmen of Australia, or any other food foraging tribe that has ever walked the planet. Actually I'm convinced many animal societies are more civilized than American society.

Can you even term the action of insects crawling over your genitals as sex?

I wouldn't consider sexual by any means, but rather I would find it quite creepy and would not even consider doing it. But there are people that do find it sexual. Some people would not find the use of sex toys to be sexual at all, but here we have an entire industry based on them.

Medieval these days if often used as a euphemism for extremely primitive.

The phrase "primitive" is actually very misleading, degrading, and isn't considered academic when discussing other cultures and societies. But even so, Medieval Europe remains highly romanticized, is the setting for many stories and fantasy worlds, or is thought as a bad thing not because they were "primitive" but because of the extreme religious rule and superstition.

Thankfully we have moved on from the Dark Ages.

Fortunately yes. No one gets burned at the stake for having birth marks, being left handed, or questioning God anymore because the church is no longer the head of the state.

 

[Tiberius]

People in this thread have been talking about the consent issue with animals and I think it's reasonable to say that in a lot of cases you wouldn't really be able to tell whether an animal gave consent or not.

Yes, a woman naked on all fours because she wants to have sex with her dog experiences that dog come and mount her and begin humping, but she can't be sure, can she? After all,. maybe the dog slipped and just happened to fall...

I believe that quite often an animal wouldn't really care or put too much thought into the matter.

And Humans always put so much thought into the matter.

So this could quite easily be likened to rape.

No it couldn't.

Now if you were prepared to rape an animal what is stopping you then developing an interest in doing this to a person?

Oh, once again the lameness of the slippery slope argument!

Depravity leads to depravity as I have mentioned many times. Often depraved and illegal acts start with something small and then build up to something more serious.

You are yet to show that bestiality is depraved.

Bestiality highlights this fact.

No it doesn't.

What happens when you get bored of the sheep in the field?

What happens when you get bored of your wife?

 

[Skwim]

What happens when you get bored of your wife?

I thought of asking the very same question, but figured he might not be of age to marry. Then I thought of asking it about his girlfriend, but didn't know if that would be applicable either.

 

[nnmartin]

The Bestiality Supporters club - what a joke!

 

[nnmartin]

We are not really any more civilized than the Bushmen of Australia, or any other food foraging tribe that has ever walked the planet. Actually I'm convinced many animal societies are more civilized than American society.

I see, that is why there are so many urban professional Americans just lining up to throw everything away and go and live in the bush in some 4th World cess-pit!

Most people in the developing world would give their right arm to have a chance to live in the West - even if it meant cleaning the toilets at Mcdonalds - I wonder why that is.

What have these pointless off-topic remarks got to do with legalising bestiality in the West anyway - it's just complete waffle.

Tell us why bestiality should be legalised in the West.

Why should we treat it as acceptable behaviour just because some extreme minorities think it is ok?

What will we have to legalise next if you get your way?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Most people in the developing world would give their right arm to have a chance to live in the West - even if it meant cleaning the toilets as Mcdonalds - I wonder why that is.

What have these pointless off-topic remarks got to do with legalising bestiality in the West anyway - it's just complete waffle.

Tell us why bestiality should be legalised in the West.

Actually many non-Western societies tend to dislike, if not hate us, because our society has caused so much devastation and destruction throughout the world. Why would anyone who had their livelihoods taken from them and was forcefully thrown into poverty want anything to do with our society? Or the nations that had a democratically-elected ruler over thrown and replaced by a dictator that was sponsored by America? I tend to think they would make a mess of a McDonald's bathroom long before cleaning it for even more dehumanizing punishment. Some may want to be a part of this society, but many more realize we have offered nothing but lies and empty promises of fortune and wealth to their societies.
And you HAVE to consider other cultures in this debate, because how sexuality is viewed is cultural. In some cultures to gain sexual access to a female all a male has to do is present her with a gift at the appropriate times, and a woman is not restricted to one partner (actually it was there equivalent of marriage and husband and wife). Some places do not get a choice on who you marry. Some places would think it wrong to use sex-toys, but it's a thriving business here.
The point is, humans do not have any internalized sense of right or wrong, or any sense of natural morality. It is all indoctrinated into a person by the culture they live in. Bestiality is no different. We "think" it's wrong because society says it is, but that is just society talking and since animals animals can consent (not legally, but just try and force yourself onto a larger and more aggressive breed of dog that doesn't want it), there is really nothing but cultural objectives to the act itself.

 

[nnmartin]

Actually many non-Western societies tend to dislike, if not hate us, because our society has caused so much devastation and destruction throughout the world.

there may be some resentment issues but most will just as quickly take the money and sell out. Christmas has suddenly become big deal where I'm living (a Buddhist country) - there's money to be made out of it you see - traditional cultural values are soon passed over if there's a buck to be made.

Why would anyone who had their livelihoods taken from them and was forcefully thrown into poverty want anything to do with our society?

Beacause 9 times out of 10 they will sell out rather than be poor and traditional.

I tend to think they would make a mess of a McDonald's bathroom long before cleaning it for even more dehumanizing punishment.

Naive idealism pure and simple.

I see it first hand daily - people working for pittance wages at places like KFC seeming to actually be glad to have a job - better than eating grass I imagine!

The point is, humans do not have any internalized sense of right or wrong, or any sense of natural morality. It is all indoctrinated into a person by the culture they live in. Bestiality is no different.

absolute garbage!

people are not naturally attracted to animals in a sexual way.

this is not due to cultural conditioning but just a reality of the order of nature.
Humans are not meant to have sex with animals - get over it.

There might be some deviants out there who like to think it is natural but they no doubt have psychological or emotional baggage of some sort.

Perhaps they just can't find a normal sexual partner so make do with an animal instead.

Bestiality is in no way normal.

It is only for perverts, deviants and hillbillies.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

people are not naturally attracted to animals in a sexual way.

this is not due to cultural conditioning but just a reality of the order of nature.
Humans are not meant to have sex with animals - get over it.

Some people are attracted to animals. Very technically though, given that humans are animals, we are all attracted to animals so the very concept of bestiality is shaky. But never the less just like some people derive sexual pleasure from playing with fecal mater, some people derive pleasure from animals. But technically bestiality is not considered a paraphilia or disorder, as animals other than humans are not needed for sexual arousal or gratification. The only hang-ups is that you do not want to see that a culture defines everything. The only reasons humans have advanced as far as we have is because of culture. Our very survival even depends upon our culture.
Bestiality is not normal, but then again homosexuality, being left handed, having blonde hair, and having six toes are all statistically not normal, but the views of such things vary over time. It use to be a crime in many states in America to be homosexual, and it even used to be considered a psychological disorder until the 70's. Iran to this day publicly condemns homosexuals to death. Being left handed used to be considered a sign of having an allegiance with the devil. And blondes have a distinction of being stereotypically attractive and dumb. It's all based on culture. Actually the views on sex itself vary greatly from culture to culture and over time. Some cultures are very permissive and have guidelines that typically will ensures that a person will have sex with everyone of the opposite sex in the tribe. Another culture is so repulsed by sex the wear smocks while doing it. St. Augustine and others concluded that God should have created a better method for reproduction, while in another culture a person of pubescent age will have sex with several people who are older to learn how to properly please a partner sexually and then will become monogamous once married. It just all depends on the culture.

 

[Tiberius]

nnmartin, do you have anything more than name calling and slippery slope arguments?

 

[nnmartin]

Here's a couple more links for you to refute. (no doubt you will refute any source given)

Center for Disease Control official arrested for Bestiality | Go Fish Ministries, Inc

bestiality - definition of bestiality in the Medical dictionary - by the Free Online Medical Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

for those that don't fancy following the second link here is the gist of it:

Reasons for engageing in bestiality Actor has difficulty forming normal relationships with humans or was never interested in sex with humans. Alternatively, the animal may be used as a sex toy and an animated object for sexual gratification.
Diseases linked to bestiality Worms, fleas, ticks, salmonella, campylobacteriosis, viruses which theoretically can mutate and cause new medical problems, legal and social stigmas