Why should i be Catholic?

[Arrow]

I understand that the Catholic church is the first church, but that in and of itself i do not think is enough of a reason to believe in it. With as much as the Catholic church has changed over the years it could not have always been correct in doctrine.

There are many things about the Catholic church that i do not understand and i am seeking a deeper understanding on the main points of Catholicism such as the sacraments, rosarie (spelling?), and the communion of the saints, ect...

 

[jacquie4000]

Try to talk to Victor he has vast knowledge in this area.

 

[Arrow]

thanks

 

[Mr. Hair]

I'm guessing you mean the Roman Catholic church, as opposed to...

*suddenly looks at where posting is taking place*

Well, er... Solved that one fairly quickly...

As Jacquie has suggested, asking around both here and elsewhere should prove fruitful, I believe we have a good number of active, compassionate and articulate Catholic Christians on board with us right now. Any answers you'll receive may not directly respond to your underlying questions about Catholicism, but they may at least provide some interesting scenery.

By the by, I'm not sure if it's what you're looking for, but I've found this site to be rather good at answering such doctrinal and cosmological questions, at least from a scriptural standpoint;

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/

I wish you luck in following your path.

 

[jimbob]

i'm sure victor will be happy to answer any questions. i too will be more then pleased to help. i may not be as smart as victor, but if i can, i'll help.

rosary

 

[Runlikethewind]

Hello Arrow,
This is a good website for Catholic matters:
http://www.newadvent.com/

I would also be more than willing to help out in any questions you might have. The best idea would, I guess, be for you to start up a thread in the Catholic section here with any specific questions you might have and we will all try to help you out.

Let me start you off by saying that the Rosary is a Catholic devotion it is a matter of private revelation. This means that it is not a matter of doctrine or dogma. The Church approves of many private revelations and by approval it just means that the they are not contrary to scripture or the doctrines of the faith. So although the Rosary is an important part of the lives of many Catholics one does not have to pray it or believe in it at all. The sacraments and the communion of saints are matters of public revelation they must be believed by all faithful Catholics. So if the Rosary is a problem or a stumbling block for you, then toss it out the way and worry about it later. Relatively speaking it is not important. Don't take that to mean that I think the Rosary is useless or anything like that, I make Rosaries and I pray the Rosary. But matters of public revelation which one needs to accept take primacy over matters of private revelation which one does not need to accept.

 

[Doodlebug02]

150 Reasons Why I Am Catholic

 

[Quiddity]

Welcome back Arrow! I remember you.

Well, I’m going to try to keep this as short as I can. I won’t be covering the sacraments, rosary, communion of saints, etc. I couldn’t possibly do them justice in this post. I will though, cover your initial observation you made about the Catholic Church being first and changing over the years. I’m going to go out on limb and try something new and unique for a change. Hopefully it goes well.

One of the most difficult shifts for me coming into the Catholic Church was not the doctrines (that came later), but rather the world view and presuppositions/bias that come with it. Imagine belief like a lever (bare with me as I attempt to make a point), once pulled, moves everything else in a person’s life. Are you a Liberal? A doctor? A bigot? Or how about a serial killer? These are all merely species of belief in action. Your beliefs define your vision of the world; they are the very fabric of your behavior; they determine your emotional responses to other human beings. If you doubt this, consider your perception and experience with the world would suddenly change if you came to believe one of the following:

1. You only have two weeks to live
2. The orange juice in your fridge makes you invisible
3. You’ve just won the lottery

These are mere words, until you believe them. Once believed they become part of the very apparatus of your mind, determining and altering your desires, fears, interpretations, and behavior.

Now the same applies with how you approach the Bible and Christianity as a whole. Let me give you an example. It is a common held belief in non-Catholic Christian denominations that the People of God (the Church) are a people of a book (The Bible). Now approaching the Bible with such a thing in mind completely alters how you may interpret the very verses you read. Most verses dealing with men being given authority (like the Apostles and those who followed) will either be completely ignored or minimized. To take them too serious would lean to the understanding that the People of God aren’t just a people of a book, but also of a living authority.

This is just one example that can make or break a person. Obviously there are varying degrees in which people might place importance into a verse. But the underlying biases, presuppositions, world view, completely can change how you interpret verses in the Bible.

You’re probably thinking “Ok, Victor that’s sounds wonderful but what does that have to do with the Catholic Church as it relates to my questions?” Well, in my research and experience I have come to find out that everybody has a bias, presuppositions, beliefs, world view, etc. Once you come to realize this, then it’s not about eradicating it but instead coming to embrace one. Now you’re probably thinking “So you said all that just to tell me that both you and I have a bias, presuppositions, and all that? And that we shouldn’t get rid of it?” Hold your horses! Not done yet. What I’m saying is that the question has never been about eradicating your bias, presuppositions, world view, beliefs, etc. because as I showed above (see words in blue for recollection) that not only can you not get rid of it, but having unhealthy biases/beliefs/presuppositions etc. can make the world of difference. The beauty of all this is that God left us with His own bias/presuppositions/world view to have it become the very apparatus of your mind. In the Catholic Church we call this Holy Tradition. It comes to us in written form (The Bible) and oral form (The Canon, councils, etc.). Both are crucial and this is undoubtedly how the early Christians formed their consciousness.

These men believed in such things as Mary being sinless, they had bishops, they believed in oral Tradition being protected by Holy Spirit, and a myriad of other beliefs. Now what do you think would happen if you cut off all these facts from a group of Christians? I’ll tell you what happens, you get 33,000 different denominations. So it’s never been just about it being first, but about it practically (with the exception of Eastern Orthodox) being alone in mirroring the very early Christians. Do you think your interpretation of the Bible would change if:

1. You knew early Christians baptized infants.
2. Christians didn’t have an assembled Bible until 397 AD.
3. Christians saw Mary as sinless.

This is just one of many. But I hope I got the point across. I’ll cover your other observation (Catholic Church changing) on my next post.

 

[Quiddity]

Ok, I'm going to cheat and steal a post from some other user named Victor (shhh don't tell). It relates to Doctrinal Development and the "change" you observed.

See post #96:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49992&page=10

See post #5:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31078&highlight=newman

I'm sure you have more questions.

 

[Runlikethewind]

Nicely said Victor, it is hard sometimes to recognize that we do come into things with a preconceived notion that makes a big difference in how we approach things.

 

[Quiddity]

150 Reasons Why I Am Catholic

Oh yeah! Dave Armstrong rocks...unk: .

 

[athanasius]

Welcome back Arrow! I remember you.

Well, I’m going to try to keep this as short as I can. I won’t be covering the sacraments, rosary, communion of saints, etc. I couldn’t possibly do them justice in this post. I will though, cover your initial observation you made about the Catholic Church being first and changing over the years. I’m going to go out on limb and try something new and unique for a change. Hopefully it goes well.

One of the most difficult shifts for me coming into the Catholic Church was not the doctrines (that came later), but rather the world view and presuppositions/bias that come with it. Imagine belief like a lever (bare with me as I attempt to make a point), once pulled, moves everything else in a person’s life. Are you a Liberal? A doctor? A bigot? Or how about a serial killer? These are all merely species of belief in action. Your beliefs define your vision of the world; they are the very fabric of your behavior; they determine your emotional responses to other human beings. If you doubt this, consider your perception and experience with the world would suddenly change if you came to believe one of the following:

1. You only have two weeks to live
2. The orange juice in your fridge makes you invisible
3. You’ve just won the lottery

These are mere words, until you believe them. Once believed they become part of the very apparatus of your mind, determining and altering your desires, fears, interpretations, and behavior.

Now the same applies with how you approach the Bible and Christianity as a whole. Let me give you an example. It is a common held belief in non-Catholic Christian denominations that the People of God (the Church) are a people of a book (The Bible). Now approaching the Bible with such a thing in mind completely alters how you may interpret the very verses you read. Most verses dealing with men being given authority (like the Apostles and those who followed) will either be completely ignored or minimized. To take them too serious would lean to the understanding that the People of God aren’t just a people of a book, but also of a living authority.

This is just one example that can make or break a person. Obviously there are varying degrees in which people might place importance into a verse. But the underlying biases, presuppositions, world view, completely can change how you interpret verses in the Bible.

You’re probably thinking “Ok, Victor that’s sounds wonderful but what does that have to do with the Catholic Church as it relates to my questions?” Well, in my research and experience I have come to find out that everybody has a bias, presuppositions, beliefs, world view, etc. Once you come to realize this, then it’s not about eradicating it but instead coming to embrace one. Now you’re probably thinking “So you said all that just to tell me that both you and I have a bias, presuppositions, and all that? And that we shouldn’t get rid of it?” Hold your horses! Not done yet. What I’m saying is that the question has never been about eradicating your bias, presuppositions, world view, beliefs, etc. because as I showed above (see words in blue for recollection) that not only can you not get rid of it, but having unhealthy biases/beliefs/presuppositions etc. can make the world of difference. The beauty of all this is that God left us with His own bias/presuppositions/world view to have it become the very apparatus of your mind. In the Catholic Church we call this Holy Tradition. It comes to us in written form (The Bible) and oral form (The Canon, councils, etc.). Both are crucial and this is undoubtedly how the early Christians formed their consciousness.

These men believed in such things as Mary being sinless, they had bishops, they believed in oral Tradition being protected by Holy Spirit, and a myriad of other beliefs. Now what do you think would happen if you cut off all these facts from a group of Christians? I’ll tell you what happens, you get 33,000 different denominations. So it’s never been just about it being first, but about it practically (with the exception of Eastern Orthodox) being alone in mirroring the very early Christians. Do you think your interpretation of the Bible would change if:

1. You knew early Christians baptized infants.
2. Christians didn’t have an assembled Bible until 397 AD.
3. Christians saw Mary as sinless.

This is just one of many. But I hope I got the point across. I’ll cover your other observation (Catholic Church changing) on my next post.

Awesome points!!!

 

[KPereira]

I quite these forums for a while. I needed to think about where I was on the religious scope of things. These forums were good at informing me, but equally effective in confusing me. I needed God to direct me, not the Internet. So, I quit these forums for two or three months. Before I left, I was a pretty strong Catholic. Later on, I started to become leaning in between Catholicism and Protestantism...accepting beliefs from both camps. Now, I barely accept any Catholic ideas. A couple key points, yes...but most I right out reject or am so horribly confused on. Perhaps maybe a few of my questions could be answered by some people knowledgable in the Catholic faith.

1. The Rosary. I know how and why it was developed. However...why do people say it? I mean, how does repeatedly saying the Hail Mary and Our Father and Glory Be going to bring you closer to God, as the Rosary is considered a sacramental? A more personal prayer to God would bring one closer in my opinion. Repeating the same prayer is hardly being close to God, I think.

2. Mary. I attend a Catholic high school and in my religion class, we discussed Marian apparitions. My teacher's explanation as to why Catholics should pray to Mary wasn't clear and concise. I understand that we should RESPECT Mary as the mother of God...but to actually PRAY through her to obtain salvation? Next week, I have to play the clarinet in mass for the Festa da Nossa Senhora da Fatima (Feast of Our Lady of Fatima), and then carry around a gigantic statue of Mary with 3 other guys in this parade. Well...I think that is taking respect a little too far. Especially when there is no Jesus parade...I think too much focus is put on Mary in the Catholic church. My question is why?

3. Saints. Sure, it is nice that there were people in this world that were extremely good people. And it is nice that the Vatican recognizes them and all, too. But why pray through saints? If the main goal in Christianity (I could be wrong here, though) is to establish a close personal relationship with God, and live as Jesus did...shouldn't we pray TO God THROUGH Jesus?

4. Sacramentals. One fine day, I see my sister bring this cushion into every bedroom in the house. This cushion had a dove sewn on it and it looked really pretty and all. It was supposed to represent the Holy Spirit. I later found out that my mother paid a sum of $14.95 for the Holy Spirit to supposedly enter my bedroom. Ummm...a little sacreligious, no? Does that not assume the Holy Spirit is worth money? I have an itch with Holy Water, too. At my church, St. Anthony's, there was Holy Water being sold for $2.00 a bottle. Now, Holy Water is a sacramental, no? A sacramental is an object that is supposed to bring us closer to God. Be closer to God for the low price of $2.00? Have the Holy Spirit enter your home for $14.95? In my humble opinion, the Catholic faith is being lost in things like this. My question is...whats with all the God-paraphenalia?

5. Infant Baptism. Reading earlier in the thread, I saw something about 'the sooner one gets Baptised, the better.' Something along those lines. Now, that's all fine and dandy. BUT! As being a Catholic myself and baptised as an infant. Hell, as soon as I popped out of the womb, I was rushed to the nearest Catholic church. I grew up and went through all the sacraments. Didn't know why I was doing it. Well, my parents made me...and there is little you can do. Confirmation is supposed to be the sacrament where you confirm your beliefs. However, I felt as if I was FORCED to be part of the Catholic faith. I once joked around with my mother the possibility of me becoming a Protestant. Her reaction? 'YOU WERE BORN ROMAN CATHOLIC! YOU WILL STAY ROMAN CATHOLIC!' If that's not forcing someone to be a Catholic, I don't know what is! If I told my mother that I didn't want to go through Confirmation...what do you think her reaction would be? Well, there would be a lot of yelling and I would end up being Confirmed anyway. I think a lot of Catholic parents put tremendous amounts of pressure on their children to stay Catholic. I think it is a lot better to let your kid to grow up and find God on his own (with some parental guidance, of course..but not outright forcing). Why is it necessary that an infant has to be baptised?

6. Infallibility. The Pope: leader of the Roman Catholic church. Now, that much I can cope with...but infallibility? For the love of God, the Pope is human like me or you! The Pope makes mistakes as well. To say the Pope is infallible is to say that the Pope is basically God on Earth, not making any mistakes, not being wrong, and is all good and holy. And that is a little contradictory to 'Have no other Gods before Me', I think. Maybe I'm misinformed here. Besides, I'm half on a rant lol. Are there any Bible verses supporting the infallibility of the Pope?

I have a plethora of questions...but those are the main ones. Any answer I get would be greatly appreciated.

 

[gmelrod]

6. Infallibility. The Pope: leader of the Roman Catholic church. Now, that much I can cope with...but infallibility? For the love of God, the Pope is human like me or you! The Pope makes mistakes as well. To say the Pope is infallible is to say that the Pope is basically God on Earth, not making any mistakes, not being wrong, and is all good and holy. And that is a little contradictory to 'Have no other Gods before Me', I think. Maybe I'm misinformed here. Besides, I'm half on a rant lol. Are there any Bible verses supporting the infallibility of the Pope?

Since I am on I will make a little point about Papal Infalibility. It does not mean that the Pope is never wrong. If he takes a math test he does not automaticly get all the answers right. Only that when he speaks ex cathdra or from the chair is he claiming to speak without error. In my understanding this is a very rare event and covers only a few facts. I am sure the people after me will post somthing about the Pope's ability to speak infalibly coming from the teaching authority of the Church granted to Peter by Jesus and ensured by the Holy Spirit as well as give the relevant citations from scripture. I just wanted to contribute a small amount.

 

[sojourner]

The pope has actually only spoken ex cathedra twice: Once about the immaculate conception of Mary, and once about her assumption.

 

[KPereira]

Since I am on I will make a little point about Papal Infalibility. It does not mean that the Pope is never wrong. If he takes a math test he does not automaticly get all the answers right. Only that when he speaks ex cathdra or from the chair is he claiming to speak without error. In my understanding this is a very rare event and covers only a few facts. I am sure the people after me will post somthing about the Pope's ability to speak infalibly coming from the teaching authority of the Church granted to Peter by Jesus and ensured by the Holy Spirit as well as give the relevant citations from scripture. I just wanted to contribute a small amount.

Thank you for your response, gmelrod . It somewhat cleared up my thoughts on infallibility...but I'm still not convinced. If there are a few Bible passages that support this...I would be very grateful if someone pointed them out for me. Even if this authority was granted to Peter through Jesus...Peter was still human and made mistakes just like anyone else. You are telling me the same man who denied Jesus 3 times is the one who gets to speak without error from the chair along with anyone voted to be Pope after him? That seems quite askew to me. Perhaps it will be clarified with Bible passages.

 

[Runlikethewind]

Hello Kpereira, you got allot of questions there I'll try and answer them but it may take a little time. So maybe I'll do it one at a time, I'm getting started right now!

 

[Runlikethewind]

1. The Rosary. I know how and why it was developed. However...why do people say it? I mean, how does repeatedly saying the Hail Mary and Our Father and Glory Be going to bring you closer to God, as the Rosary is considered a sacramental? A more personal prayer to God would bring one closer in my opinion. Repeating the same prayer is hardly being close to God, I think.

First things first, the Rosary is a matter of private revelation, it is a private devotion. In other word you do not have to pray, or believe in, the rosary to be a good Catholic. If the Rosary is really a big stumbling block then you can ignore it and no harm will come (except from those Catholics who for some reason think that the rosary is a necessity, it is not). I think the Rosary is a great devotion although it is one of the most difficult devotions to do correctly. See the point of the Rosary is to meditate on the mysteries while the repetitive prayers act like a sort of mantra of a kind to focus one’s thought’s on the mysteries. That is why it is so difficult your mind should be focused on the mystery while your mouth is focused on the prayers. In my mind it is a very difficult prayer and as much as I love it I rarely pray it. So forget the Rosary for now and focus on something else. Maybe it will come later, or not, no big deal either way in the grand scheme of things.

 

[KPereira]

First things first, the Rosary is a matter of private revelation, it is a private devotion. In other word you do not have to pray, or believe in, the rosary to be a good Catholic. If the Rosary is really a big stumbling block then you can ignore it and no harm will come (except from those Catholics who for some reason think that the rosary is a necessity, it is not). I think the Rosary is a great devotion although it is one of the most difficult devotions to do correctly. See the point of the Rosary is to meditate on the mysteries while the repetitive prayers act like a sort of mantra of a kind to focus one’s thought’s on the mysteries. That is why it is so difficult your mind should be focused on the mystery while your mouth is focused on the prayers. In my mind it is a very difficult prayer and as much as I love it I rarely pray it. So forget the Rosary for now and focus on something else. Maybe it will come later, or not, no big deal either way in the grand scheme of things.

Thank you for your patience in dealing with my questions lol. Point taken. I can ignore the Rosary completely.

 

[Runlikethewind]

2. Mary. I attend a Catholic high school and in my religion class, we discussed Marian apparitions. My teacher's explanation as to why Catholics should pray to Mary wasn't clear and concise. I understand that we should RESPECT Mary as the mother of God...but to actually PRAY through her to obtain salvation? Next week, I have to play the clarinet in mass for the Festa da Nossa Senhora da Fatima (Feast of Our Lady of Fatima), and then carry around a gigantic statue of Mary with 3 other guys in this parade. Well...I think that is taking respect a little too far. Especially when there is no Jesus parade...I think too much focus is put on Mary in the Catholic church. My question is why?

Marian apparitions, as with the Rosary, are matters of private revelation, in fact if I am not mistaken the Rosary was given to St. Dominic during a Marian apparition. So as far as the apparitions go you don’t have to believe in them to be a good Catholic either (although again some Catholics will disagree with this but it is the truth, it is private revelation it is not necessary it is like an extra benefit.).

Granted some Catholics might take Marian devotion too far, but that doesn’t mean that Marian devotion is wrong or anything, it just reflects that some Catholics are very devoted to her. And I think you make a valid question there as well why no Jesus parade? Back in the day they used to parade around with the blessed sacrament where did that go? Anyway I will just try to focus on why we pray to Mary as well as the saints as reflected in your 3rd question because you already seem to recognize that Mary is worthy of respect and honor as she is the mother of God.

3. Saints. Sure, it is nice that there were people in this world that were extremely good people. And it is nice that the Vatican recognizes them and all, too. But why pray through saints? If the main goal in Christianity (I could be wrong here, though) is to establish a close personal relationship with God, and live as Jesus did...shouldn't we pray TO God THROUGH Jesus?

All prayers must go through Jesus to the Father. But let us first discuss types of prayer and worship. Only God is worthy of worship in the strict sense. No one should be worshiping Mary or the saints. When we honor God and thank Him and such, we ought to be praying to Him. But then there are prayers that ask for God’s help or assistance. We ask for someone to get over a sickness or we ask God to help us overcome a problem or whatever. Now my mom has been on the parish prayer chain for many years. If someone in the church needs prayers they call someone on the prayer chain and each person has a certain person they are to call and soon all these people are praying for the needs or intentions. Now think of Mary and the saints as a sort of Heavenly prayer chain. At the wedding feast of Canna, when they ran out of wine, Mary when to Jesus and told him that they where out of wine she went to him with a problem and Jesus fixed it, turned water into wine because Mary asked him to even though He said His time had not yet arrived. So when you pray for something might as well get her to ask Jesus too because Jesus seem to listen to his Mother. Same with the saints. Technically a saint is anyone in heaven. The official canonized saints are the ones who the Church is willing to come out and say we are very sure that this person is in heaven. The saints, being in heaven with God are in a position to have the ear of Jesus, to ask Him to take care of your intention, just like Mary. One should never worship Mary or the saints but we should honor them and look up to them as examples of how to be proper Christians. And they are great people to ask to pray to Jesus for you because they are close to him.

I hope that helps, it is kind of complicated I guess and there is a lot more going on there then I have spoke of, but maybe this will help clear things up a bit.