Why should I debate about God with you ?

[chinu]

Ah ok. To me, from looking at what evidence there is of how Judaism/Christianity developed out of earlier ideas and beliefs, and how both religions have changed over time, it seems very clear that god and religion are both human creations. Something that preceded literature, philosophy and science, but with comparable aims.

If this stops you from believing in God then why don't you stop looking at all this blah blah blah ? And, further what is stopping you to search God in a manner like you are the first and only man on this earth who will discover this ?

 

[Mock Turtle]

What type of evidence are you looking for ? let me ask

The believable sort. Rather than textual material from the past that hasn't got enough provenance (in my view) and which might point to any God. Plus anything that could only be explained by the existence of a God, but where from what I have come across over the course of my life, there are adequate explanations for most things (often coming from science) without any gods, and much that still isn't known might be explained when we do have further information. Given that I hardly expect science to have all the answers - ever. The size of the universe might not allow this.

 

[HonestJoe]

If this stops you from believing in God then why don't you stop looking at all this blah blah blah ?

This isn't "God Forums", it's "Religious Forums". If a proposed god doesn't actually exist, it is irrelevant (directly at least) but religions can have a massive impact of people's lives, regardless of whether they're valid or not. None of the debates here are really about gods, they're about people. And we all believe in people.

 

[Tomef]

If this stops you from believing in God then why don't you stop looking at all this blah blah blah ? And, further what is stopping you to search God in a manner like you are the first and only man on this earth who will discover this ?

Why would I? I don’t have any need for a fictional god.

 

[chinu]

This isn't "God Forums", it's "Religious Forums".

Yes, this is "Religious Forums" not "God forums" I agree.
But, blah blah blah -is- blah blah blah.

 

[chinu]

Why would I? I don’t have any need for a fictional god.

Then who created all the things that you see all around you ? answer me.

 

[Tomef]

Then who created all the things that you see all around you ? answer me.

Why do you think that is a valid question?

 

[chinu]

Why do you think that is a valid question?

Because I can see things around me that aren't man-made.

 

[Mock Turtle]

God is already a possibility. All you have to do is choose to trust in that possibility. Or choose not to. And see what happens. There is no right or wrong. Just possibilities, choices, and results.

The possibility is not enough for me to spend so much time chasing the issue - particularly when there is enough evidence (for me) as to explanations being available for most things - the ones seemingly only coming from God for the many who do have such beliefs - and because there are better things to do with one's life (in my view).

 

[Tomef]

Because I can see things around me that aren't man-made.

And your assumption is that someone else made them?

A valid starting question might be: did someone make all this stuff? While there have always been atheists, for most of human history it seemed the most natural assumption that someone did. Now we know enough to have no use for that hypothesis. There isn’t any actual reason, other than the lingering after-effects of tradition, to entertain the god hypothesis.

 

[chinu]

And your assumption is that someone else made them?

A valid starting question might be: did someone make all this stuff? While there have always been atheists, for most of human history it seemed the most natural assumption that someone did. Now we know enough to have no use for that hypothesis. There isn’t any actual reason, other than the lingering after-effects of tradition, to entertain the god hypothesis.

Leaving all the blah blah blah.
My question is -- who made all things if not God ? its not an assumption, its a straightforward question to you.

 

[PureX]

The possibility is not enough for me to spend so much time chasing the issue - particularly when there is enough evidence (for me) as to explanations being available for most things - the ones seemingly only coming from God for the many who do have such beliefs - and because there are better things to do with one's life (in my view).

It's all about control, I think.

So long as we can maintain the belief that we are in control of our own fates, mostly, we feel no need or concern for any 'higher power'. But when something happens to us that shatters that confidence, and we see ourselves as being vulnerable, then most of us will seek out that higher power as a way of gaining back some sense of security. And the interesting thing is, that if we approach that idea of a higher power as an act of faith, it can provide us with an effective way forward regardless of our vulnerability.

 

[Mock Turtle]

It's all about control, I think.

So long as we can maintain the belief that we are in control of our own fates, mostly, we feel no need or concern for any 'higher power'. But when something happens to us that shatters that confidence, and we see ourselves as being vulnerable, then most of us will seek out that higher power as a way of gaining back some sense of security. And the interesting thing is, that if we approach that idea of a higher power as an act of faith, it can provide us with an effective way forward regardless of our vulnerability.

Perhaps this is true but I have been through enough so as for me to wonder 'why me' but I seem to have come through without such seeking, with this likely being that I just don't and never did find any evidence that compelling for a belief in God. But I was lucky in some ways in not having had a particularly religious upbringing so probably free to look more openly. And mostly I have always been a bit of a drifter so I have never felt that much in control of my life.

 

[Tomef]

Leaving all the blah blah blah.
My question is -- who made all things if not God ? its not an assumption, its a straightforward question to you.

But assuming someone made it all is an assumption.

 

[PureX]

Perhaps this is true but I have been through enough so as for me to wonder 'why me' but I seem to have come through without such seeking, with this likely being that I just don't and never did find any evidence that compelling for a belief in God. But I was lucky in some ways in not having had a particularly religious upbringing so probably free to look more openly. And mostly I have always been a bit of a drifter so I have never felt that much in control of my life.

God is not an issue of evidence. Or of truth.

Speaking for myself, I had the shocking experience of discovering that my own brain had 'malfunctioned' and that everything I had thought and believed to be real and true was a toxic illusion created in my malfunctioning mind. The "evidence" I had relied on was just subjective BS that my mind chose to leave, while ignoring whatever contradicted it. And of course I did not see this at all when I was doing it.

It's a truly shocking revelation to discover how fully one can deceive oneself. And while doing it, there being no possible way of detecting it. When our vulnerability is that profound, and that innate, there is no internal solution. And it's too confusing and frightening to just live with it. Faith is the only way through it. It may not even have to be faith in a "God", but it can't be faith in oneself. Because that delusion has been shattered.

Understanding this is the key to understanding theism as a way of life. And people that have never experienced it, both religious or atheist, very often have no idea what's really going on. Religiosity is often not faith based. It's just a form of self empowerment based on some intellectual sophistry. The same is true of most of the atheist scientism crowd. These are about creating and maintaining the illusion that the 'believer' is in control of their own fate. Whereas real faith is based on just the opposite. It's based on the shocking realization that the adherent is NOT in control of much of anything. Such that faith is the only option left to them as a way of moving forward. But keep in mind that faith is trust and hope being ACTED upon. It is not sitting passively and waiting for some 'higher power' to take care of us.

 

[wellwisher]

Why should I debate about God with you ?

This is not an easy debate, since it is like saying I enjoy vanilla ice cream the most, and then trying to debate someone who likes chocolate ice cream the most. We are both being true to your own personal objectivity; the ice cream taste that is best to me. It hard to convince another, whose body, heart, mind and spirit all agree on their choice of ice cream, to change their nature from the outside.

I like the expansive feeling that my belief in God gives me. God is like an infinity concept, that expands my mind and heart. I would feel too confined with a lower ceiling and no deep subbasements to explore. That is my Carmel swirl ice cream. However, when not exploring outside the box, I like to rest inside the box, and try other flavors. Debate or rather discussion is how I learn the likes of others, so I can try. But I keep finding myself going back to what I like from the inside, derived by all own inner experiments.

 

[chinu]

But assuming someone made it all is an assumption.

When things are already infront of our eyes its understood that somebody made/created it.

Vice versa there's nobody/nothing behind this creation is assumption

 

[Mock Turtle]

God is not an issue of evidence. Or of truth.

Not sure that is true. I very much doubt I would have come up with the concept of God if I was born tens of thousands of years ago and such belief didn't already exist. Agency projection and subsequent reasoning evolving seems the most likely reasons why many humans can accept a belief in a solitary entity, but as we have expanded our evidence - through human expansion, obtaining knowledge and understanding, etc. - we can see that much is simply the interaction of humans and being on the planet Earth. Many just will not accept the evidence though, it seems to me. Such that when religions formed the times were right for such - a little understanding, much curiosity and demand for answers, but not necessarily getting the right answers. So I think evidence and truth are rather essential.

Speaking for myself, I had the shocking experience of discovering that my own brain had 'malfunctioned' and that everything I had thought and believed to be real and true was a toxic illusion created in my malfunctioning mind. The "evidence" I had relied on was just subjective BS that my mind chose to leave, while ignoring whatever contradicted it. And of course I did not see this at all when I was doing it.

It's a truly shocking revelation to discover how fully one can deceive oneself. And while doing it, there being no possible way of detecting it. When our vulnerability is that profound, and that innate, there is no internal solution. And it's too confusing and frightening to just live with it. Faith is the only way through it. It may not even have to be faith in a "God", but it can't be faith in oneself. Because that delusion has been shattered.

Understanding this is the key to understanding theism as a way of life. And people that have never experienced it, both religious or atheist, very often have no idea what's really going on. Religiosity is often not faith based. It's just a form of self empowerment based on some intellectual sophistry. The same is true of most of the atheist scientism crowd. These are about creating and maintaining the illusion that the 'believer' is in control of their own fate. Whereas real faith is based on just the opposite. It's based on the shocking realization that the adherent is NOT in control of much of anything. Such that faith is the only option left to them as a way of moving forward. But keep in mind that faith is trust and hope being ACTED upon. It is not sitting passively and waiting for some 'higher power' to take care of us.

I can appreciate this, although for myself I think I was fortunate in that even if I suffered in many ways (from depression and avoidant behaviour), I think I still held to reality sufficiently so as to pass through these phases whilst still maintaining my sense of reality. I've never felt that I actually knew anything to be true, just what was most likely to be true.

But perhaps it is just that I don't see such beliefs as being that useful, especially when they tend to lead to the confusion of beliefs that have emanated from the origins of such - a belief in God.

 

[Tomef]

When things are already infront of our eyes its understood that somebody made/created it.

Understood by you, aka an assumption that you make.

Vice versa there's nobody/nothing behind this creation is assumption

No, it does away with the need for an assumption. The idea is to understand how, not by who, or why. When you are investigating how a thing works, questions that require general assumptions are only tabled as temporary hypotheses to be accepted or rejected based on what can be discovered about them.

 

[chinu]

The idea is to understand how, not by who, or why.

Did you understood HOW ?