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Why should one believe Allah?

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
In Islam it is said that all children are born as Muslims.
That does not seem to be the case. It appears that all children are born atheists. There is a reasonable way to access this claim.

By the way, there are Christians that make the same error, except that they think they are all born Christians. The same tests that show that Christians are wrong show that Muslims are wrong.
 

Teritos

Active Member
Author of Republican Rome. Tacitus, in full Publius Cornelius Tacitus, or Gaius Cornelius Tacitus, (born ad 56—died c. 120),
Tacitus was born 56CE

Jesus, as described in the New Testament, was most likely crucified on Friday April 3, 33 A.D.
Tacitus was not born when Jesus was allegedly crucified. Tacitus was not an eyewitness.



Did you not understand what you wrote? Josephus was born 4 years after the alleged crucifixion.








eye·wit·ness
/ˈīˌwitnəs/


noun
  1. a person who has personally seen something happen and so can give a first-hand description of it.
Sorry, I misread. For eyewitness accounts, see the New Testament.
 

Teritos

Active Member
Nope.

There is a Gospel with his name on it. That does not mean that it was written by him and very few scholars think that he was the author.
The author himself claims to be John the disciple. See John 21:24,
This is the disciple who is testifying about these things and wrote these things.
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
Maybe I misread it, if all It's saying is that the physical body of Jesus died, but not His soul/spirit. Well, yeah. That's obvious.

That’s not what the Qur’an is saying.

Consider:

‘And so for breaking their pledge, for rejecting Allāh’s revelations, for unjustly killing their prophets, for saying: “Our minds are closed” – No! Allāh has sealed them in their disbelief, so they believe only a little – and because they disbelieved and uttered a terrible slander against Mary, and said: “We have killed (‘qatalnā’) the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allāh.” They did not kill him (‘qatalūhu’), nor did they crucify him, though it was made to appear like that to them; those that disagreed about him are full of doubt, with no knowledge to follow, only supposition: they certainly did not kill him – No! (‘bal’), Allāh raised him up (‘rafaʿahu’) to Himself. Allāh is almighty and wise.’ (Al-Nisa: 155-158 – my emphasis).

There are tafâsîr (interpretations of the Qur’an) by Wahb Ibn Munabbih; Ṭabarî; Makkî Ibn Abi Ṭâlib; Qurṭubî; Ibn Kathîr; Suyûṭî; Ṭabâṭabâ’î ; and Jazâ’irî. All of them (apart from Ṭabâṭabâ’î) claim that Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) was not crucified, but that another was made to resemble him – and to take his place. The text provides no justification for this claim.

I opine that the words ‘though it was made to appear like that to them’ are nothing more than a reference to the belief – widespread by the time these verses were revealed – that the crucifixion of Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) did, in fact, take place.

Hasan Basri Cantay writes: ‘Allah raised and lifted up the Prophet Jesus (as) in both body and soul.’ (Tafsir of the Qur'an).

Imam ibn Taymiyya writes: ‘The verse "He raised him to His Presence" … explains that the Prophet Jesus (as) was raised in both body and soul.’ (Majmu' Fatawa).

The word ‘raise’ renders ‘rafa‘a’ (‘to raise’) rather than ‘ba‘atha’, which is used elsewhere in the Qur’an to mean ‘to resurrect’ after death. In short, Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) was raised, without having died.

Zahid al-Kawthari claims that the ascension of Yeshua is beyond doubt: ‘That is because the basic meaning of the word rafa'a in the verses is transportation from below to above. There is no element here that could be used to interpret the verses metaphorically. Therefore, there is no evidence for seeking to produce a meaning in the sense of ascension in honour and station.’ (Nazra 'Abira fi Maza'im).

The argument that Yeshua was not killed is strengthen by the use of the word ‘bal’ in verse 158.

By way of explanation, Sheikh al-Islam Mustafa Sabri writes that if the term ‘bal’: ‘Comes after a sentence expressing a negativity, then, according to the rules of Arabic linguistics, the sentence following it must mean the exact opposite of the one preceding it. The opposite of death is life. This is a requirement of the rules of linguistics.’ (‘Position of Reason’).

Referring to this same verse, Said Ramadan al-Buti writes:

‘The mutual compatibility between the verses’ previous and later sections necessarily reveals a fact. For example, if an Arab says: "I am not hungry; on the contrary, I am lying on my side," this is not a correct sentence. In the same way, there is a discrepancy between the components in the sentence: "Khalid did not die; on the contrary, he is a good man." What would be correct is to say: "Khalid did not die; on the contrary, he is alive." …… The term bal expresses a contradiction between the preceding and the following words. In other words, bal cancels out a previous statement. (Islamic Catechism; page 338).
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Show me a Being who has all the attributes of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla), and you will have shown me the Exalted, known by a different name.
In other words...
Allah is THE God of everything.

But if you find another God as good, well, it's really just Allah in masquerade. Uh huh.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
That’s not what the Qur’an is saying.

Consider:

‘And so for breaking their pledge, for rejecting Allāh’s revelations, for unjustly killing their prophets, for saying: “Our minds are closed” – No! Allāh has sealed them in their disbelief, so they believe only a little – and because they disbelieved and uttered a terrible slander against Mary, and said: “We have killed (‘qatalnā’) the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allāh.” They did not kill him (‘qatalūhu’), nor did they crucify him, though it was made to appear like that to them; those that disagreed about him are full of doubt, with no knowledge to follow, only supposition: they certainly did not kill him – No! (‘bal’), Allāh raised him up (‘rafaʿahu’) to Himself. Allāh is almighty and wise.’ (Al-Nisa: 155-158 – my emphasis).

There are tafâsîr (interpretations of the Qur’an) by Wahb Ibn Munabbih; Ṭabarî; Makkî Ibn Abi Ṭâlib; Qurṭubî; Ibn Kathîr; Suyûṭî; Ṭabâṭabâ’î ; and Jazâ’irî. All of them (apart from Ṭabâṭabâ’î) claim that Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) was not crucified, but that another was made to resemble him – and to take his place. The text provides no justification for this claim.

I opine that the words ‘though it was made to appear like that to them’ are nothing more than a reference to the belief – widespread by the time these verses were revealed – that the crucifixion of Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) did, in fact, take place.

Hasan Basri Cantay writes: ‘Allah raised and lifted up the Prophet Jesus (as) in both body and soul.’ (Tafsir of the Qur'an).

Imam ibn Taymiyya writes: ‘The verse "He raised him to His Presence" … explains that the Prophet Jesus (as) was raised in both body and soul.’ (Majmu' Fatawa).

The word ‘raise’ renders ‘rafa‘a’ (‘to raise’) rather than ‘ba‘atha’, which is used elsewhere in the Qur’an to mean ‘to resurrect’ after death. In short, Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) was raised, without having died.

Zahid al-Kawthari claims that the ascension of Yeshua is beyond doubt: ‘That is because the basic meaning of the word rafa'a in the verses is transportation from below to above. There is no element here that could be used to interpret the verses metaphorically. Therefore, there is no evidence for seeking to produce a meaning in the sense of ascension in honour and station.’ (Nazra 'Abira fi Maza'im).

The argument that Yeshua was not killed is strengthen by the use of the word ‘bal’ in verse 158.

By way of explanation, Sheikh al-Islam Mustafa Sabri writes that if the term ‘bal’: ‘Comes after a sentence expressing a negativity, then, according to the rules of Arabic linguistics, the sentence following it must mean the exact opposite of the one preceding it. The opposite of death is life. This is a requirement of the rules of linguistics.’ (‘Position of Reason’).

Referring to this same verse, Said Ramadan al-Buti writes:

‘The mutual compatibility between the verses’ previous and later sections necessarily reveals a fact. For example, if an Arab says: "I am not hungry; on the contrary, I am lying on my side," this is not a correct sentence. In the same way, there is a discrepancy between the components in the sentence: "Khalid did not die; on the contrary, he is a good man." What would be correct is to say: "Khalid did not die; on the contrary, he is alive." …… The term bal expresses a contradiction between the preceding and the following words. In other words, bal cancels out a previous statement. (Islamic Catechism; page 338).
She was talking about what Baha'is believe about it in her post, not Islam.
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
In other words...
Allah is THE God of everything.

But if you find another God as good, well, it's really just Allah in masquerade. Uh huh.

Not in masquerade. One God....called by different names. Is this so hard to comprehend?
 
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ecco

Veteran Member

ecco

Veteran Member
Not in masquerade. One God....called by different names. Is this so hard to comprehend?
All apologetics is easy to understand.

It is also easy for rational people to understand the difference between opinionated apologetics and facts and evidence.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Sorry, I misread. For eyewitness accounts, see the New Testament.
What part of the New Testament? Surely you can quote some passages and then show evidence that the authors were actual eyewitnesses to the events.
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
It is also easy for rational people to understand the difference between opinionated apologetics and facts and evidence.

It is indeed. That is why I so easily recognise the fact - based on the evidence of your words - that you are one of those folk who cannot permit a simple truth (in this case, that the Exalted is known by different names) to stand in the way of a cherished prejudice.

It is not the best use of our time to continue this conversation; and so I thank you, and wish you well.
 
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Teritos

Active Member
What part of the New Testament? Surely you can quote some passages and then show evidence that the authors were actual eyewitnesses to the events.
The author of the Gospel of John introduces himself at the end of the Gospel as the disciple whom Jesus loves, see John 21:24. This disciple was present at the crucifixion, see John 19:26.
 
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