Why so much attention on male-to-female trans people?

[The Kilted Heathen]

I guess one part is people thinking women are more pure than men, while men always have some hidden sexual motive for anything they do. It's wrong to think that way of course, but many fail to see that.

Which part is wrong? Or both are?

 

[sovietchild]

Which part is wrong? Or both are?

I don't know who you quoting.

One who thinks he is rightest and one who is rightest. Another example.

 

[Father Heathen]

I don't know who you quoting.

One who thinks he is rightest and one who is rightest. Another example.

Wtill you stop spamming the thread with random gibberish?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

To touch on the "real woman" issue... Speaking purely in regards to biological sex, a transwoman isn't, and to some people that's important. Plans for children (adoption is different than biological, and surrogates are complicated,) or heck, even just their preferences. Just because it's not preferred, I don't think that means they're homo/transphobic.

It's still a refusal to acknowledge them as they are. It starts to get complicated once you do actually consider biology, psychology, and anthropology, and arguments of this "real woman" begin to crumble. And it's not a preference, but an exclusion.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

To touch on the "real woman" issue... Speaking purely in regards to biological sex, a transwoman isn't, and to some people that's important.

Instead of getting mired in the "what's a real woman," my question to this is why doesn't this just call for a simple 'no thanks' rather than the anger and revoltion given to trans women by more than just the conservative Christian folk?

Plans for children (adoption is different than biological, and surrogates are complicated,) or heck, even just their preferences.

If this were the central conflict you'd think trans men would have equal stigma, being equally incapable of reproducing post surgery.

On "traps", that's generally a term for shemales. As in, one thinks they're a woman based on figure, facial features, breasts, but then the genitals don't match up biological. I know, I know... I'm just explaining the term.

I know terminology changes and trying to keep up can be confusing and frustrating, so I totally understand. And I've been there.
BUT, shemale is either a pornography term for intersex(formerly called hermaphrodite), or a slur on post-OP trans women.

 

[Lorgar-Aurelian]

It's highly irritating. Female-to-male trans people exist, too. Maybe it's because the effects of testosterone therapy are so noticeable, but I also think it's tied into panicking over "male" bodied people exhibiting feminine traits. Masculine "females" are largely ignored in Western society and history. Our society is very patriarchal. Also, a lot of straight cis men are sexually attracted to trans women, so that certainly plays into how much attention they receive. (Trans men are also fetishized, but not really to the same extent and by somewhat different groups.)

I'm a trans man, but when I say I'm trans, people all of a sudden assume I'm a trans woman. Um, no. I transitioned years ago. I'm not closeted and/or have yet to transition. My gender in my profile says "male" and that's what I mean it to say. I'll have 3 years on testosterone therapy next month and have been living as male for almost a decade now. That makes me a trans elder of sorts compared to many of my trans peers who are just starting their transitions.

I've dated a female to male trans person and I've known male to female trans folks as well. I think the difference does boil down at least In part to the idea of traps. It could also have something to do with the fact that male to female trans people seem to be more common among celebrities.

You can't really blame the common man for knowing more about one type of transition or giving it more attention when their media outlets give it far more attention. I've also noticed some men feel "betrayed" when they meet a trans woman. Perhaps this has something to do with sexuality , they find themselves attracted to someone then it turns out to be a "male" how dare they?!

It's like they view it as a trick of some sort. Like the only reason someone is transitioning is because they want to fool straight men. I've also met people who just don't know that there is such a thing as female to male trans. I'll chalk that one up to media ignorance as well.

 

[Jumi]

Which part is wrong? Or both are?

Both are wrong. Women aren't more pure than men and men don't always have hidden sexual agendas.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Which part is wrong? Or both are?

Both are wrong as it's patriarchy malarkey that says women are more pure than men and Freudian hogwash to think men always have sexual motives in everything they do.

 

[Kapalika]

having sex with a man is the worst best thing possible.

Wait, I fixed that for you.

(For the record I actually prefer women over men, I just couldn't resist the joke).

 

[Liu]

Regarding the OP's question, are M to F transitions more common than F to M transitions? If so, that might account for the former getting more attention than the later, and why people might make presumptions when it comes up.
Then again, like you said it probably has a lot to do with culture. After all, there often seems to be a difference between social attitudes towards gay men and lesbians, as well.

I'm not sure how much of a disparity between the rate of transitions there is. In my personal experience, it seems about equal. Trans men also tend to "blend in" more, especially after a certain amount of time on testosterone. (Not that trans women can't, but that depends on various things.)

According to statistics I heard a year ago, it's more or less 1:1, based on those people who went through with officially changing their first name. So, not any more common.

But yes, it's probably that we trans guys don't stand out as much.
Due to my cup size I have some difficulty passing as male (and having just starting seeing a therapist, it will take quite a while till I can get hormones or surgery, at least as long as I play it safe and keep to the guidelines of health insurances).
But if someone reads me as female, my "male" clothing doesn't seem any strange in this society, and if I get read as male, then I suppose people may sometimes think I'm gay due to some feminine behavior I have from my upbringing, but they wouldn't even think of me being trans. Instead, it often happens that they think I'm 10 years younger than I actually am.

Everyone knows what a drag queen looks like, and that's the picture they have of trans women (as inaccurate as it might be). But there is no real common image of what a trans man looks like, so they don't have something they can look for.


It's not only in western culture, though. There are several cultures that have more than 2 genders, but in many of them, there is only a 3rd, for trans women, and no separate for trans men. I haven't heard of a culture with a separate gender for trans men that doesn't have a separate gender for trans women as well.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

It's highly irritating. Female-to-male trans people exist, too. Maybe it's because the effects of testosterone therapy are so noticeable, but I also think it's tied into panicking over "male" bodied people exhibiting feminine traits. Masculine "females" are largely ignored in Western society and history. Our society is very patriarchal. Also, a lot of straight cis men are sexually attracted to trans women, so that certainly plays into how much attention they receive. (Trans men are also fetishized, but not really to the same extent and by somewhat different groups.)

I'm a trans man, but when I say I'm trans, people all of a sudden assume I'm a trans woman. Um, no. I transitioned years ago. I'm not closeted and/or have yet to transition. My gender in my profile says "male" and that's what I mean it to say. I'll have 3 years on testosterone therapy next month and have been living as male for almost a decade now. That makes me a trans elder of sorts compared to many of my trans peers who are just starting their transitions.

..When ultralibs begin cannibalizing themselves....

 

[Father Heathen]

..When ultralibs begin cannibalizing themselves....

What does this suppose to mean?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

2 types of leaders. One who thinks he is and one who he is.

You don't have to worry about being either.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Essentially, I suppose, for the same reason(s) women, in general, get more attention than men.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

It's still a refusal to acknowledge them as they are. It starts to get complicated once you do actually consider biology, psychology, and anthropology, and arguments of this "real woman" begin to crumble. And it's not a preference, but an exclusion.

No, actually I argue that in a way it is acknowledging them as they are. From a biological perspective, they are a male that has transitioned to a female. Psychology and gender is another issue from what I'm tackling.

I also completely disagree that the preference alone is exclusion. One does not have to be physically attracted to someone to accept them as a person. I am not attracted to men, at all - does that mean that I don't accept homosexual men? That I exclude them? No.

Instead of getting mired in the "what's a real woman," my question to this is why doesn't this just call for a simple 'no thanks' rather than the anger and revoltion given to trans women by more than just the conservative Christian folk?

I completely agree that the revulsion of conservatives is wrong, and none of their business. I couldn't say for percentages, or give a clear answer, but I'm just trying to expand on the possible reasons behind the "no thanks."

If this were the central conflict you'd think trans men would have equal stigma, being equally incapable of reproducing post surgery.

I couldn't say for that, I'm only trying to give possible reason to the male perspective of it. In this regard, on the biological desire of procreation and the necessity of female biological functions; uterus, mammary glands, etc. Things that can't be replicated. I don't deny the revulsion of more stuck-up "dude bros" and Conservatives, and agree that they're wrong, I just don't think it's all bigoted rejection.

shemale is either a pornography term for intersex(formerly called hermaphrodite), or a slur on post-OP trans women.

That's good (informationally) to know, but I thought that hermaphrodites were the people that have both genitalia?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

That's good (informationally) to know, but I thought that hermaphrodites were the people that have both genitalia?

It is, today. Intersex and hermaphrodite was used interchangeably, but now are divided into genotypical and phenotypical presentations. There are no human hermaphrodites in the biological sense of the word, as there's been no case of functional both sets of gonadal presentation. But there are in other animals. (Finding Nemo would have been a really different movie if it were actually about the animals in question. Nemo's dad would have probably changed from a male to a female to care for Nemo, who would have been a sexually ambiguous hermaphrodite until he got older.)
Intersex is a spectrum of presentations. Both genitalia, neither, a mixture (internal and external genitalia conflict), or one set but other presentation (for example a sex switched where the chromosomes do not match the genitals.)
Like many things in life, it's more complex than meets the eye.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No, actually I argue that in a way it is acknowledging them as they are. From a biological perspective, they are a male that has transitioned to a female. Psychology and gender is another issue from what I'm tackling.

From a biological perspective, some women have XY chromosomes or are born infertile. Even from a biological perspective, especially once we consider intersexed individuals, things such as gender and sex do not fit into a black/white binary. But, what really matters is social perceptions. For a transsexual who passes well enough to blend in, society perceives them as regular and normal. But when they don't blend in well enough, that is when people begin to have issues.

Psychology and gender is another issue from what I'm tackling.

The psychology of a transsexual is also one that includes biology, as their brains look more like the sex they identify as than what they were assigned at birth.

I also completely disagree that the preference alone is exclusion. One does not have to be physically attracted to someone to accept them as a person. I am not attracted to men, at all - does that mean that I don't accept homosexual men? That I exclude them? No.

Homosexuality/heterosexuality are sexual orientations, not preferences. When someone says they are attracted to women or men, but refuse to have sex with transsexuals, they are not seeing transsexuals for their identity, but rather as a projection.

In this regard, on the biological desire of procreation and the necessity of female biological functions; uterus, mammary glands, etc. Things that can't be replicated.

Breast growth in men is actually not that uncommon. In a male-to-female transsexual the breast develop is like it is in any other woman. She may not have a uterus, but some "normal" women are born without, or with one that doesn't function properly.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

From a biological perspective, some women have XY chromosomes or are born infertile.

I'm meaning physically, not necessarily genetically. But as for infertility, I would imagine that there are some men who don't become women who can't conceive, because of the importance placed on procreation.

Even from a biological perspective, especially once we consider intersexed individuals, things such as gender and sex do not fit into a black/white binary.

Gender, yes. But I'm not talking about gender, I'm talking about sex, which does fit into male-female binaries. Doing some brief research on it, hermaphroditic (intersex) individuals are recognized by the UN Office of High Commission for Human Rights as individuals who - respective of both physiology and genetics - fit somewhere between the typical male or female sexes.

For a transsexual who passes well enough to blend in, society perceives them as regular and normal. But when they don't blend in well enough, that is when people begin to have issues.

They (and I don't mean the actual bigots and straight-laced Conservatives) probably take "issue" because it is literally messing with their perception. Which isn't necessarily a good thing, as their perception isn't necessarily a bad thing born of bigotry.

Regardless of morals and ethics, what is "normal" (and please understand that I'm not making statements on individuals here) is what is most commonly encountered. For example, in my job I see a lot of people. Now, on any given day - as I don't have in-depth discussions with them past taking their orders - I see men and women. Should I encounter someone who doesn't look like either, it sticks out as "abnormal" (for lack of a better word). My coworkers - even one who is on-the-way-to-be transsexual - do the same. I believe that everyone does, even if for a brief second before social ethics kick in.

I think the biggest thing is how it's handled - by everyone. The angry reaction of "did you just assume my gender!?" needs to not be done, as I honestly believe it exasperates things. When I had long hair, I was often mistaken for a woman. I'd just smile and say "sir, actually" and leave it at that. An apology usually followed, and we moved forward. On the other hand, the people who "have trouble" (in the sense of being objected to that fact) with someone being transsexual need to get over themselves - that I will absolutely agree on.

When someone says they are attracted to women or men, but refuse to have sex with transsexuals, they are not seeing transsexuals for their identity, but rather as a projection.

You're right. But on the other hand, sex is something very intimate and personal. I don't believe that it's right to force - in essence - acceptance in this regard. It's one thing to ideologically combat people persecuting transsexuals in a day-to-day, quite another to say "Since you like women, have sex with this transwoman or you're..." whatever follows. Honestly, it reminds me of a post I saw on tumb1r that was literally calling people bigots for refusing to have sex with people who have AIDS/HIV. Not the same thing, I know, but it reminds me of it.

Breast growth in men is actually not that uncommon.

But not mammary glands.

She may not have a uterus, but some "normal" women are born without, or with one that doesn't function properly.[/

QUOTE]
And as mentioned above, I imagine to some people that would be an issue too. I can say for sure, but I think I remember reading or hearing of breakups happening for just such a reason.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But not mammary glands.

Both men and women are born with mammary glands.

quite another to say "Since you like women, have sex with this transwoman or you're..."

As I said, it is a refusal to acknowledge transwomen as women.

Doing some brief research on it, hermaphroditic (intersex) individuals are recognized by the UN Office of High Commission for Human Rights as individuals who - respective of both physiology and genetics - fit somewhere between the typical male or female sexes.

Which means they fall outside of the black/white sex binary. According to this binary, they shouldn't exist because everyone is either or, but yet they are ambiguous enough to not be solidly born as either one.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Both men and women are born with mammary glands.

Allow me to reword - developed mammary glands. Testosterone inhibits this, as well as a significant lack of prolactin - the hormone necessary for milk production. For a transwoman to lactate, a constant regiment of hormones - both domperidone and those found in birth control pills - are necessary. If they stop taking them, they stop producing milk.

Which means they fall outside of the black/white sex binary.

Not outside, within. Think of it as a spectrum; on the right you have male, on the left female, and then varying degrees in between.