Why so much attention on male-to-female trans people?

[VioletVortex]

I've always seen it the other way around, that the predominant trans type is female to male. I guess that's because I am male; I see my gender as dominant and thus more desirable.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Allow me to reword - developed mammary glands. Testosterone inhibits this, as well as a significant lack of prolactin - the hormone necessary for milk production. For a transwoman to lactate, a constant regiment of hormones - both domperidone and those found in birth control pills - are necessary. If they stop taking them, they stop producing milk.

Even without hormones some men have been able to lactate. Darwin suspected that once upon a time our earliest ancestors may have, male and female alike, breast fed children and our evolution went on a path that made it more normal for women.

Not outside, within. Think of it as a spectrum; on the right you have male, on the left female, and then varying degrees in between.

I do think of it as a spectrum. However, a spectrum (ROYGBIV) is not the same as a binary (1/0).

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I've always seen it the other way around, that the predominant trans type is female to male. I guess that's because I am male; I see my gender as dominant and thus more desirable.

Um...what?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Yeah, I don't know what that's all about either Frankenstein.

Even without hormones some men have been able to lactate.

Is there a case to show for that? Try as I might, outside a species of bat I couldn't find anything for humans. All I could find is that testosterone inhibits it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Is there a case to show for that? Try as I might, outside a species of bat I couldn't find anything for humans. All I could find is that testosterone inhibits it.

Strange but True: Males Can Lactate
Strange but True: Males Can Lactate
Unless you are an Indonesian fruit bat, though, it probably won't happen naturally
Can Men Lactate?

Importantly, human biology also makes male lactation a possibility.
....
Research has shown that male prolactin levels can also surge, according to a 2008 review on male lactation published in the journal Trends in Ecology and Evolution.

For instance, scientists documented lactation in male WWII prison camp survivors, who had suffered months of starvation. After receiving adequate nutrition, their hormone-producing glands rebounded far quicker than their livers (which normally metabolize hormones), resulting in hormonal spikes that caused lactation.

Similarly, a condition called liver cirrhosis can cause lactation by disrupting the organ's normal, hormone-metabolizing function.

Health issues that affect the pituitary gland or the hypothalamus, which normally inhibits the release of prolactin, can also cause male milk production.

For example, a 2010 study published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal documented lactation in a man with a pituitary tumor.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Hormonal surges due to starvation, abnormal hormonal regulation, the allowance of prolactin release due to a tumor... None of those things are "normal", and require extreme measures. Measures which are achieved through hormone regiments in a far more safe manner, but that must be maintained while breastfeeding.

So while I can recognize that there have been instances of it happening, saying "without hormones men have been able to lactate" makes it sound as though there were no extraneous circumstances.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Hormonal surges due to starvation, abnormal hormonal regulation, the allowance of prolactin release due to a tumor... None of those things are "normal", and require extreme measures. Measures which are achieved through hormone regiments in a far more safe manner, but that must be maintained while breastfeeding.

So while I can recognize that there have been instances of it happening, saying "without hormones men have been able to lactate" makes it sound as though there were no extraneous circumstances.

There's also "witches milk," which is something infants, male or female, may secrete. Anthropologists have documented it in various places. Even Darwin wrote abit about it. Granted such a thing is rare, but under certain circumstances it can happen. And when you consider hormone treatment, we go from a by-default false claim of "mammary glands cannot be recreated" since both men and women have them, to another claim that is also false of "developed mammary glands," something else that men can develop, to the question of lactation, which again is something that is not impossible for men to do.
As I stated previously, the issue gets complicated when you consider biology. Biology does not simplify this or turn the subject into a binary: Not even remotely.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

There's also "witches milk," which is something infants, male or female, may secrete.

Infants which are not quite stably developed, and wouldn't have the supply of testosterone in quantities to prevent prolactin release? Of which is also thought to be caused by the thyroid adjusting and developing, as well as induced by medications or hormones taken by the mother during pregnancy.

And when you consider hormone treatment, we go from a by-default false claim of "mammary glands cannot be recreated" since both men and women have them, to another claim that is also false of "developed mammary glands," something else that men can develop, to the question of lactation, which again is something that is not impossible for men to do.

I retain my stance, as it's not something that is final. Hormones must be regularly taken or else lactation stops. Any way you look at it, it is an induced ability to lactate, rather than possessing developed mammary glands that require no adjustment of hormonal levels to lactate.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

rather than possessing developed mammary glands that require no adjustment of hormonal levels to lactate.

Generally, even women require fluctuations in hormone levels to lactate, mostly prolactin and progesterone.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Neither of which are inhibited by testosterone levels, and which are naturally boosted during pregnancy to promote lactation.

 

[littlefire]

In reply to the OP, I think the visibility issue could also have to do with the concept of fragile masculinity, which basically theorizes that masculinity in contemporary western society has to be continuously fought for, proven, and guarded, and thus, that it can be easily broken by any feminine qualities. My understanding of it is that since trans women in the eyes of much of society break that glass house of masculinity, they stand out more easily. Femininity on the other hand seems to me to be more of a "default setting" that doesn't have to be defended as heavily to be ascribed to a person, which makes it more flexible and makes perceived infractions less visible.

 

[psychoslice]

Don't forget homophobia. In their mind a trans woman isn't a real woman, but a man. And having sex with a man is the worst thing possible.

That's true we have to realize how the other thinks, we have to see them if we were in their shoes, and they in our shoes. I never think it about it myself because I once went with a transsexual, but of course there are those who don't agree, there will always be those who don't agree, just as you don't always agree with other sexual preferences.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Neither of which are inhibited by testosterone levels, and which are naturally boosted during pregnancy to promote lactation.

But it still requires that hormone levels fluctuate. Instead of incessantly moving goal posts, why not just admit your first point regarding breasts, and each subsequent changed point, was wrong.

 

[Liu]

In reply to the OP, I think the visibility issue could also have to do with the concept of fragile masculinity, which basically theorizes that masculinity in contemporary western society has to be continuously fought for, proven, and guarded, and thus, that it can be easily broken by any feminine qualities. My understanding of it is that since trans women in the eyes of much of society break that glass house of masculinity, they stand out more easily. Femininity on the other hand seems to me to be more of a "default setting" that doesn't have to be defended as heavily to be ascribed to a person, which makes it more flexible and makes perceived infractions less visible.

I wouldn't call that a default setting though - the default is male, unless proven otherwise, but the possible proves are so manifold that it's easier to get mistaken as female than getting mistaken as male.
Male is the psychological and often even linguistic default: In many languages that differentiate gender, there is a default form for males and general use, and a special form for females only. And there have been many psychological experiments that show that people tend to first assume other people to be male. A simple example, show a person a picture of 3 stick-people and tell the person to give them names. In the majority of cases 2 or even 3 of the stick-people will receive a male name.

The conclusions are the same, though, that there might be more social pressure on males than on females, at least regarding certain aspects, and that females, and/including trans-women, might get more attention due to being different from the perceived default.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

But it still requires that hormone levels fluctuate. Instead of incessantly moving goal posts, why not just admit your first point regarding breasts, and each subsequent changed point, was wrong.

Because I don't believe it to be so? If my wife and I have a child, she's not going to need a hormone regiment to be able to breastfeed. She's not going to need to take birth control pills to stop testosterone from inhibiting prolactin, and she's not going to need to maintain that during the entire feeding process. It won't take her mammary glands three to four days to begin working, when a thick waxy secretion is lactated before it thins to actual milk.

That was my point with the statement from the beginning--my stance on it has not changed. It is not wrong, and barring starvation or tumors, isn't something that just happens with males. Nine months from now I wouldn't be able to just start lactating because I lack everything that makes it possible, but my wife could.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If my wife and I have a child, she's not going to need a hormone regiment to be able to breastfeed.

No, but her hormone levels still have to fluctuate for the milk to be produced.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This whole thread is a petition to play pretend.

FYI, gender roles and norms are nothing more than an act. Men don't inherently "act macho" no more than women inherently "act girly," and there is nothing inherent about things that are considered masculine or feminine.

I'll get my hands replaced with paws and get whisker implants so I can be an actual cat.

That's actually a very ancient and traditional religious practice, to assume characteristics and even alter ones appearance to more match ones spirit animal.
And also what you are failing in transsexuals, pre-transition, are generally and mostly a severely depressed group with a high risk of suicide. And unlike schizophrenic delusions which impede and impair functioning, transitioning generally improves mental health and social functioning. If anything, what is very frequently expressed is they feel they are no longer living a hollow, empty life of going through with the motions, that they have shed their masks, and they are being themselves. As they harm no one and psychologically improve, and considering an anthropological approach to sex and gender, there are really no grounds to stand on to make the claim they are pretending. After all, even tough guys and nurturing women are only playing roles, acting as they have been taught.

 

[Liu]

Prejudiced - read, contrary to the Libby party line.

If you think women that medically alter themselves to appear male or vice versa are are actually the sex they have been altered to appear as, that's fine for you. Believe what you like.

Maybe I'll start getting melanin injections until I'm a real black guy, or maybe I'll get my hands replaced with paws and get whisker implants so I can be an actual cat.

Meow.

I don't believe transpeople to be the sex they transition to, at least not by all criteria. But they are of that gender, or at least not of the gender they were assigned to at birth.
I must admit that it's not completely proven yet, but there's evidence that transpeople have the brain structure more typical of the gender they identify as.
So it can be said that transpeople have a psyche more typical of the other sex. This is what leads to disphoria.

 

[Liu]

FYI, gender roles and norms are nothing more than an act. Men don't inherently "act macho" no more than women inherently "act girly," and there is nothing inherent about things that are considered masculine or feminine.

I wouldn't completely subscribe to that. While a lot of gender roles are just social constructs, there seems to be a biological base for it, i.e. slightly differing instincts more common among males than among females and vis versa.
Nevertheless, that's not meant as an argument against people wanting to act different from how their society's gender roles expect them, not all people are the same anyway, independently of their biological sex.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

I don't believe transpeople to be the sex they transition to, at least not by all criteria. But they are of that gender, or at least not of the gender they were assigned to at birth.
I must admit that it's not completely proven yet, but there's evidence that transpeople have the brain structure more typical of the gender they identify as.
So it can be said that transpeople have a psyche more typical of the other sex. This is what leads to disphoria.

That's all well and good, I mean, if a guy wants to take hormones to grow boobs, or have a doctor replace his junk with something that looks absolutely nothing like an actual vagina, go him. His body. His life. Whatever man.

I only draw the line when some ethereal onus is somehow transfered to me, or to society, to grant them any special rights or considerations.

Keep your *** out da ladies room, bro.