Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

[Sargonski]

The facts are on my side, not yours.

?? what you posted did not help your side, what ever side that even is ? What is "Your side ? We have established that God is 3 separate people with different thoughts - different actions - actions sometimes in conflict - other times pursuing the same goal .. united as one .. according to your trinity ideology.

How is this not my side ? That is what I told you was Trinity idology. Three separate Gods (each with own mind - will - name and all other things associated with personhood .. each with own soul) .. each made of the same God Substance that all gods are made of .. but not all of these separate God Persons have the same powers according to the Bible.

If you want to go full Gnostic and state that each of these God people eminate from the same Godhead .. I am all good with that as well .. each of these Gods still having their own separate mind .. thoughs and will .. different and not the same as the others .. each having own powers .. same polytheism

In summary .. I I agree that the facts are solidly on the side of Polytheism .. thus your claim that I am not on your side is false.

 

[Sargonski]

You are wrong. According to the trinity doctrine God is three persons that share one being/substance

What am I wrong about .. I agree with that these three separate Gods are made of the same God Substance .. you want to claim they are all from the same tree .. I am fine with that polytheistic perspective.

If you want to call the God substance in which these 3 Gods share "one being" .. making us now having 4 God people I am good with that as well

 

[IndigoChild5559]

This may have been where the discussion of the kingdom began (not sure) in this topic. Which is about trinity-bashing. Is it truly your belief that the Messiah will rule from Jerusalem? If you would feel more comfortable discussing this on another thread, I'd be happy to.

If you want to switch topics to the second part of that post, where I address why jews do not accept Jesus, that's okay.

The portion of my post that you quoted was not the section on the Trinity. The portion that you quoted was on the unfulfilled prophecies. I'm just trying to keep the discussion straight. It is very important that you quote the section that you want to address. If you want to address my comment about why Jews will not accept Trinitarianism, that's fine, just quote that section.

Now, the section that you did quote had to do with the fact that Jesus doesn't fulfill all the prophecies, and you include a question to me on one of the prophecies I said he did not fulfill, specifically that the Messiah will rule from Jerusalem. So let's discuss that.

Let's look at Isaiah 2:
This is what Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:

2 In the last days
the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established
as the highest of the mountains;
it will be exalted above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.
3 Many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the temple of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.

The passage is clearly messianic. The one who will judge between the nations is the messiah. Besides judging between the nations, another prophecy that Jesus never fulfilled, It mentions Zion and Jerusalem as the place from where all this will proceed -- also unfulfilled by Jesus. Finally, it speaks of the messiah ushering in an era of worldwide peace-- also unfulfilled by Jesus. Thus in just this one passage alone, there are three statements regarding the Messiah that Jesus did not fulfill.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Trinity doctrine claims God is one person - Crying out No Sir - thats Modalism - does not change this fact.

I'm sorry, but I'm just not going to debate this with you further. It is a fact that Trinitarianism claims one essence, three persons. My suggestion to you is that you find a good book on Trinitarianism and read it. But I'm not going to keep repeating myself to you. Moving on.... Be well.

"The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from Latin: trinus 'threefold')[1] is the central doctrine concerning the nature of God in most Christian churches, which defines one God existing in three coequal, coeternal, consubstantial divine persons."

Trinity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[stvdv]

I've noticed on RF there are a lot of heretical (that's the technical term) Christians who disbelieve in the Trinity.

Why?

Why So Much Trinity Bashing?​

Easy to answer for me

Christian Trinity believers are enthousiasts when it comes to bashing everyone who believes differently
(Belittling feelings or (non)faith of others is bashing of the worst kind; trampling their soul)

So,

Newton's third Law answers both your questions
Newton's third law: Action = -Reaction (short)
for every action (force) in nature there is an equal and opposite reaction

 

[Kenny]

Mind, body, and spirit? Analogous to Father, Son and Holy Ghost?

Exactly. That being body, soul (mind, will and emotions) and spirit. Three parts, each with a different purpose and materiality, and yet one person.

 

[Sargonski]

I'm sorry, but I'm just not going to debate this with you further. It is a fact that Trinitarianism claims one essence, three persons. My suggestion to you is that you find a good book on Trinitarianism and read it. But I'm not going to keep repeating myself to you. Moving on.... Be well.

"The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from Latin: trinus 'threefold')[1] is the central doctrine concerning the nature of God in most Christian churches, which defines one God existing in three coequal, coeternal, consubstantial divine persons."

Trinity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I did not deny that the trinity states 3 persons .. nor made of one substance .. what you refer to as "essense". So not sure why you are pretending other wise .. repeating this strawman fallacy over and over as if it is an argument for something other than your lack of understanding of the subject matter.

These 3 persons made of the same God Substance / essense . .. are 3 separate Gods .. each with their own mind .. own will and abilities regardless of the Trinity claim that these three persons are all made of the same God substance and one on this basis.

That the Trinity claims further that these 3 Gods are coequal divine persons is patent nonsense according to Scripture .. Made up Priestly nonsense having no foundation in scripture .. Jesus in fact stating the opposite .. but what that matters not to the fact that you are preaching polytheism .. coequal or not.

defining darkness as light does not make it truth friend .. The trinity is a contradiction claiming God is both one God .. and 3 Gods .. Get it .. got it .. good

If the Father is God .. and the Son is begotten of the Father .. and not the Father .. then the Son is not God the Father .. but God the Son.. the Spirit who proceeds from the Father .. but who is not the Father .. being a third God.

and the middle bars in the lovely Trinity pyramid need to read Is a God .. rather than "Is God" .. as if there is only one person in the Trinity rather than 3.

 

[walt]

Which approach? What's the difference?

* My opinion, Anybody's opinion or something said at any time in history?
* This way of thinking really sounds correct to me and makes the most sense?
* Are you trying to figure this out by scriptures in the bible?
* Should we be trying to figure this out in the first place?
* Or should we first get Jesus perspective alone, building our foundation?
* By prayer?
Which approach do you think would be the best ?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Why So Much Trinity Bashing?​

Easy to answer for me

Christian Trinity believers are enthousiasts when it comes to bashing everyone who believes differently
(Belittling feelings or (non)faith of others is bashing of the worst kind; trampling their soul)

So,

Newton's third Law answers both your questions
Newton's third law: Action = -Reaction (short)
for every action (force) in nature there is an equal and opposite reaction

I don't classify disagreement as "bashing." There are people in this forum who are on both sides of the Trinity issue. That's what I would expect in a religion forum.

 

[walt]

I feel an inner peace and joy reading Jesus Words it seems like the more I do it the better I feel. I just got over pneumonia and I didn't sleep for 31 days straight.

 

[walt]

I feel an inner peace and joy reading Jesus Words it seems like the more I do it the better I feel. I just got over pneumonia and I didn't sleep for 31 days straight.

I watched 100 insomnia recovery videos, and now I sleep much better.

 

[YoursTrue]

If you want to switch topics to the second part of that post, where I address why jews do not accept Jesus, that's okay.

The portion of my post that you quoted was not the section on the Trinity. The portion that you quoted was on the unfulfilled prophecies. I'm just trying to keep the discussion straight. It is very important that you quote the section that you want to address. If you want to address my comment about why Jews will not accept Trinitarianism, that's fine, just quote that section.

Now, the section that you did quote had to do with the fact that Jesus doesn't fulfill all the prophecies, and you include a question to me on one of the prophecies I said he did not fulfill, specifically that the Messiah will rule from Jerusalem. So let's discuss that.

Let's look at Isaiah 2:
This is what Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:

2 In the last days
the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established
as the highest of the mountains;
it will be exalted above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.
3 Many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the temple of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.

The passage is clearly messianic. The one who will judge between the nations is the messiah. Besides judging between the nations, another prophecy that Jesus never fulfilled, It mentions Zion and Jerusalem as the place from where all this will proceed -- also unfulfilled by Jesus. Finally, it speaks of the messiah ushering in an era of worldwide peace-- also unfulfilled by Jesus. Thus in just this one passage alone, there are three statements regarding the Messiah that Jesus did not fulfill.

You quote from the book of Isaiah as if you believe it. Do you believe Isaiah really saw this?
Notice the very first scripture in that book:
"This is the vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah."
My question to you and those who comment about a triune union of godpersons is this: if a person does not believe the Bible is true and Moses did not exist as written and Jesus did not exist as written, why wonder if the trinity is true or not? Maybe you can answer that question.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You quote from the book of Isaiah as if you believe it. Do you believe Isaiah really saw this?

It's an irrelevant point. If the prophecies are indeed prophecies, then whether someone believes or doesn't believe has no effect. The only things we know about the Messiah are what are written in the Prophets. If someone fulfills all the prophecies, they are the Messiah. If they don't, they are not. Jesus didn't.

Notice the very first scripture in that book:
"This is the vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah."
My question to you and those who comment about a triune union of godpersons is this: if a person does not believe the Bible is true and Moses did not exist as written and Jesus did not exist as written, why wonder if the trinity is true or not? Maybe you can answer that question.

There is absolutely nothing in the Tanakh to support the idea of the Trinity. Quite to the contrary, the Torah states that God is ECHAD, One, and it is repeated throughout the Tanakh that God's nature is not that of a man.

It does appear as though the biggest burr under your saddle is that I do not feel the need to think the Tanakh is completely historical. I don't know what to tell you. I was a literalist when I was young, but after my studies concluded that I had been wrong. I don't think there is anything you can say that I have not already considered.

 

[YoursTrue]

It's an irrelevant point. If the prophecies are indeed prophecies, then whether someone believes or doesn't believe has no effect. The only things we know about the Messiah are what are written in the Prophets. If someone fulfills all the prophecies, they are the Messiah. If they don't, they are not. Jesus didn't.

There is absolutely nothing in the Tanakh to support the idea of the Trinity. Quite to the contrary, the Torah states that God is ECHAD, One, and it is repeated throughout the Tanakh that God's nature is not that of a man.

It does appear as though the biggest burr under your saddle is that I do not feel the need to think the Tanakh is completely historical. I don't know what to tell you. I was a literalist when I was young, but after my studies concluded that I had been wrong. I don't think there is anything you can say that I have not already considered.

My question is not about the Tanakh. It is similar to those professing to be Christian but who also believe that much of the Bible is mythical, that Moses never really existed, that the Jews were never in the desert for 40 years, that Jesus was a good guy who also believed myths told by the Jews and evolution is true but the Bible's account of creation is not. I have seen that said here. Therefore how can a person determine if they know whether God is one, one in three, or three in one? This doesn't seem like a difficult question to answer, but apparently some get very offended when asked. P.S. Now IF a person really believes the Tanakh is true, that's another point because then a discussion might make sense.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

My question is not about the Tanakh. It is similar to those professing to be Christian but who also believe that much of the Bible is mythical, that Moses never really existed, that the Jews were never in the desert for 40 years, that Jesus was a good guy who also believed myths told by the Jews and evolution is true but the Bible's account of creation is not. I have seen that said here. Therefore how can a person determine if they know whether God is one, one in three, or three in one? This doesn't seem like a difficult question to answer, but apparently some get very offended when asked. P.S. Now IF a person really believes the Tanakh is true, that's another point because then a discussion might make sense.

We have discussed this many times. I've done my best to explain. I realize that it is emotionally difficult for you to understand someone approaching things in such a different way. But, my friend, I'm not going to keep repeating myself over and over ad infinitum.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

What is the Kingdom of God?

It’s God’s government or rulership; see Daniel 2:44.

And the Bible reveals that God would install, not Himself immediately, but “someone like a son of man” as the King;
See Daniel 7:13,14; Isaiah 9:6,7
(Christians claim this applies to Jesus.)

Notice the rulership extends over the peoples of Earth.
And Revelation 21:3,4 mentions a “throne,” and benefits coming to “mankind.”

It will be the best rule the earth has ever had.

 

[YoursTrue]

I watched 100 insomnia recovery videos, and now I sleep much better.

Glad you're feeling better -- I too look for the day when sickness will be no more.

 

[walt]

I disagree with the Trinity simply because Jesus words give Specific direction to what I should observe and He says to stay away from other people's instructions. But at the same time I love anyone who believes in Christ Jesus Or Anyone from a faith that's trying to do what is good.

 

[YoursTrue]

We have discussed this many times. I've done my best to explain. I realize that it is emotionally difficult for you to understand someone approaching things in such a different way. But, my friend, I'm not going to keep repeating myself over and over ad infinitum.

It is confounding, frankly, that someone talks about a messiah coming or not coming but does not believe the Bible. No questions.

 

[YoursTrue]

If you want to switch topics to the second part of that post, where I address why jews do not accept Jesus, that's okay.

The portion of my post that you quoted was not the section on the Trinity. The portion that you quoted was on the unfulfilled prophecies. I'm just trying to keep the discussion straight. It is very important that you quote the section that you want to address. If you want to address my comment about why Jews will not accept Trinitarianism, that's fine, just quote that section.

Now, the section that you did quote had to do with the fact that Jesus doesn't fulfill all the prophecies, and you include a question to me on one of the prophecies I said he did not fulfill, specifically that the Messiah will rule from Jerusalem. So let's discuss that.

Let's look at Isaiah 2:
This is what Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:

2 In the last days
the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established
as the highest of the mountains;
it will be exalted above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.
3 Many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the temple of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.

The passage is clearly messianic. The one who will judge between the nations is the messiah. Besides judging between the nations, another prophecy that Jesus never fulfilled, It mentions Zion and Jerusalem as the place from where all this will proceed -- also unfulfilled by Jesus. Finally, it speaks of the messiah ushering in an era of worldwide peace-- also unfulfilled by Jesus. Thus in just this one passage alone, there are three statements regarding the Messiah that Jesus did not fulfill.

Nothing personal but maybe later I'll discuss it.