Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

[InChrist]

There are many things I don't understand, but I do not call them all irrational. Trinitarianism is irrational. Something cannot be one thing and three things at the same time.

I don’t believe the doctrine of the Trinity is saying one thing can be three things at the same time. I think it’s more like … there is One human race, composed of many distinct human beings/personalities. Yet, there are certain qualities that define what it means to be human. Again, One human race, comprised of more than one human being. Does that make sense?
The Triune God is ONE eternal Essence/Race comprised of Three distinct eternal Beings characterized by certain qualities/attributes and creative abilities that only God possesses, which define what it means to be God. Maybe this doesn’t make sense to you, but it does to me.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I don’t believe the doctrine of the Trinity is saying one thing can be three things at the same time. I think it’s more like … there is One human race, composed of many distinct human beings/personalities.

I have read many books on Trinitarianism throughout my life. I am absolutely 100% confident when I say that you are misinformed as to what the doctrine entails. The Father Son and HS are NOT considered parts that add up to God in Trinitarian teaching.

Now if you personally want to believe that they are parts, you are certainly within your rights. I'm just informing you that this is not Trinitarianism.

 

[Ebionite]

You have no clue what you are talking about ..... The Trinity doctrine states that Jesus and God are the same Person

The facts are on my side, not yours.

Thirty Nine Articles of Religion
1. Of Faith in the Holy Trinity. There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the Maker, and Preserver of all things both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of one substance, power, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

 

[Ebionite]

God is one and many simultaneously. Yes, it’s irrational. Yes, it’s true.

The interpretation is irrational because the language is ambiguous.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, apples and oranges. In the Kingdom of God, it is God who is king, not any earthly king, even Melchizadek. And like I said, the Kingdom of God is not a location.

David was a king, was he not? Or maybe you don't think David and/or Solomon were kings.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You have no clue what you are talking about ..... The Trinity doctrine states that Jesus and God are the same Person .. and it also states that they are not the same person .

Sir, all I can do is suggest you pick up a book or two on Trinitarianism.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

David was a king, was he not? Or maybe you don't think David and/or Solomon were kings.

You keep talking about kings of Israel and Judah and Salem. That's not the topic. The topic is the Kingdom of God, and THAT kingdom has only ONE King, God.

 

[YoursTrue]

You keep talking about kings of Israel and Judah and Salem. That's not the topic. The topic is the Kingdom of God, and THAT kingdom has only ONE King, God.

I wonder how someone might know the trinity is not true if they don't believe what the Bible says.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I wonder how someone might know the trinity is not true if they don't believe what the Bible says.

Okay I give up. You are having a rough day and cannot stay on topic. Some days are just like that. Be well, my friend.

 

[YoursTrue]

Okay I give up. You are having a rough day and cannot stay on topic. Some days are just like that. Be well, my friend.

I realize it's a hard question to answer about proving or disproving the trinity if a person especially does not believe the Bible is true, but rather based on myths. So there's really nothing else to say. I'm not having a rough day...the topic is the trinity -- ( to say they do or don't believe it doesn't make sense if they think the Bible is based basically on myths, made up stories about David, Moses, Jesus, etc. Nothing else to say.Hope you have a good day/evening/night, etc. wherever you are.)

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I realize it's a hard question to answer about proving or disproving the trinity if a person especially does not believe the Bible is true, but rather based on myths. So there's really nothing else to say. I'm not having a rough day...the topic is the trinity -- ( to say they do or don't believe it doesn't make sense if they think the Bible is based basically on myths, made up stories about David, Moses, Jesus, etc. Nothing else to say.Hope you have a good day/evening/night, etc. wherever you are.)

No, sir. The topic was not the trinity. It was the Kingdom of God. You tried to change the topic to the Trinity, and I just basically threw up my hands at that point.

 

[InChrist]

I have read many books on Trinitarianism throughout my life. I am absolutely 100% confident when I say that you are misinformed as to what the doctrine entails. The Father Son and HS are NOT considered parts that add up to God in Trinitarian teaching.

Now if you personally want to believe that they are parts, you are certainly within your rights. I'm just informing you that this is not Trinitarianism.

I don’t think the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are “parts” either, but that the scriptures
present three Persons who are distinct, yet each is recognized as God; three Persons in the Godhead eternally interacting in loving relationship.

 

[InChrist]

It says more than that. It says that God is one essense, but three distinct persons, all of whom are fully God. It absolutely does not teach that the Father Son and HS are parts that add up to God.

That’s correct.

 

[freelight]

I've noticed on RF there are a lot of heretical (that's the technical term) Christians who disbelieve in the Trinity.

Why?

Some find it a CON-fusion of 'God', and an unnecessary 'dividing' of Deity, at least from a purely monotheistic perspective which was originally 'unitarian' primarily in judeo-xian vein, (although hebrews were polytheistic/henotheistic too in their history).

'God' is ONE, slice and dice 'God' as you wish,.....still ONE. - the 'devil' may be in the 'details'......as a multi-facted or 3 faced God can be imagined or any number entertained, since there is one universal substance anyways,......play with a hodge-podge of 'monism' as well,.....or 'modalism'...knock yourself out Only One Absolute Reality IS.....all else is relative, and may have multiple forms, personifications.

We've had the creeds since Late Antiquity (Apostolic, Nicaean, Athanasian) and they all include the Trinity, especially the latter, which is all about it. These creeds are regularly read in churches and have been for hundreds of years. If the Trinity were so easily disproven, why would it have held out and been accepted by the orthodox Christians? Why spend so much time fighting the Arians? And why, I'm sorry to ask, is it almost always Protestants? Do you think you know something that everybody in the early orthodox Church failed to grasp?

A creed may or may not be true. Mass indoctrination or 'belief' does not make a tenet, creed or ideology true. Actually, the contending church was predominantly 'Arian' a few times in its history until Trinitarians won their 'Christological' position by the 'church-state' powers that had the higher say, so their 'belief' (CREED) got to be made 'orthodox',....by their own claim. Arian Theology is just as GOOD as any trinitarian form. A true christian is one who actually has the spirit of Christ and follows Christs teachings, led by the Spirit. He is not led by creeds or cults, but by the Christ within. 'They who are led by the spirit of God, these are the sons of God'. Spirit, laws and principles supercede creeds or prescriptions.

Why is there so much of this around lately?

Old theological squabbles of this import continue to go in circles, thats why. Unitarians & Trinitarian perspectives have their differences and similarities,....some just make more noise over the differences, then assume a dogmatic or orthodox view upon one or the other. My view as meta-physical, theosophical and monistic, can include both perspectives, because 'God' is inclusive of but not limited by either.

How do you explain how Jesus is God without the Trinity?

There are ways to hold to the divinity of Jesus (to whatever degree) without making him into the 'God' that trinitarian creeds describe and define as. Some of those creeds also claim that souls will NOT BE SAVED who dont accept whats 'scripted' in them. (anathema! and will be damned....in other words). Not a very loving 'God' or 'creed' eh? - power grab and fear tactics...or?

How do you explain the worship of Christ?

Simple,.....worshipping a great prophet, teacher, guru or avatar of 'God' as 'God' is simply honoring the presence of 'God' in that person who is a REPRESENTATIVE of 'God'. This does not make that person 'God'.

And why is it treated in such a light manner?

Its as 'light' or 'heavy' as you wanna make it. Only 'God' is 'God'. - all else are expressions, extensions or revelations of 'God' in one form or another. 'God' is the one absolute reality ever omnipresent. - all else are abstractions thereof.


~*~*~

 

[YoursTrue]

No, sir. The topic was not the trinity. It was the Kingdom of God. You tried to change the topic to the Trinity, and I just basically threw up my hands at that point.

Sorry, m'am. The subject of THIS thread, I believe is about trinity bashing. I realize the subjects got interspersed about the kingdom. I'll stick to the topic here of the thread which is about trinity bashing. And perhaps discuss the kingdom another time. Thanks.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I don’t think the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are “parts” either, but that the scriptures
present three Persons who are distinct, yet each is recognized as God; three Persons in the Godhead eternally interacting in loving relationship.

View attachment 88221

Yes, this is an accurate portrayal of Trinitarianism.

 

[YoursTrue]

Again, IMHO (you don't have to agree) the Kingdom of God is wherever he is obeyed. That's here in this world, not some spiritual place.
....

1. Jesus cannot be the Messiah because he simply did not fulfill messianic prophecy. It makes no sense to say, "He will fulfill the rest when he comes back again." After all, anyone can claim to be the messiah and say they will fulfill the prophecies the next time around. The only way we have of determining the messiah is if they fulfill the messianic claims, all of them, and quite frankly Jesus did not; thus he failed in his attempt to be the messiah. Here are just three examples:
   • The Messiah will usher in an era of worldwide peace between the nations. Jesus did not.
   • The Messiah will rule from Jerusalem. Jesus did not.
   • The Messiah will bring ALL Jews back to the Land of Israel. Jesus did not.

This may have been where the discussion of the kingdom began (not sure) in this topic. Which is about trinity-bashing. Is it truly your belief that the Messiah will rule from Jerusalem? If you would feel more comfortable discussing this on another thread, I'd be happy to.

 

[Sargonski]

You post clearly said that Trinitarianism claimed that God was one person. THAT was what I said "no sir" to. Trinitarianism is quite clear that God is three distinct persons. It is modalism that claims God is one person, in three forms.

The Trinity doctrine claims God is one person - Crying out No Sir - thats Modalism - does not change this fact.

Define Person ? - Separate Will - Separate thoughts - a separate individual

These three individuals .. three separate minds .. are all made of the same substance .. or at least Jesus and God - the spirit is assumed in to the triad later .. but at minimum Jesus and "God" are made of the same substance.

Here we need to define both God and Substance 1) God must be named .. distinguished from the other Gods in the story .. and define the relative power structure of the various Gods .. or Godlike Powers. ..what constitutes God Powers and 2) Substance which in this case means the stuff God is made of - everything in the world being made of a different substance.

That is the Trinity doctrine .. as you have described it .. Three separate people with Godlike powers .. Not that God is one - as also states Trinity Doctrine

and welcome to the Trinity Doctrine contradiction which you are having a great deal of difficulty.

Going with the Bible .. the 3 Separate Gods definition is the most applicable. Your claim that God is not One but three people also adheres to this perspective.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Just like a man has three parts.

Mind, body, and spirit? Analogous to Father, Son and Holy Ghost?

 

[Sargonski]

Sir, all I can do is suggest you pick up a book or two on Trinitarianism.

You are the one that needs a book friend. Homoosios means that Jesus and God are made of the same substance .. the same God Stuff. which according to the people of the day there were two kinds .. that which man was made of .. that which God was made of.

Thus .. in a One God system .. Jesus is God if he is of the same substance as God.

Sorry if you disagree .. but don't blame me for your lack of understanding that "Same Substance with the Father" meant to the authors of the doctrine .. that Jesus was God .. God was Jesus .. same entity .. one in the same person .. not 3 disconnected people with separate will and separate thoughts .. separate actions .. sometimes in conflict with each other .. other times of the same purpose.

but if you do disagree .. then you are preaching Polytheism a trinity consisting of 3 different Gods .. which is fine by me .. cept that you seem not to understand that you are preaching Polytheism .. and I am not the first to make this millenia old argument..

Trinity Doctrine is a Contradiction -- why this near universally accepted fact remains deer in headlights at this point -- Is what I do not understand.