Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

[exchemist]

I've noticed on RF there are a lot of heretical (that's the technical term) Christians who disbelieve in the Trinity.

Why?

We've had the creeds since Late Antiquity (Apostolic, Nicaean, Athanasian) and they all include the Trinity, especially the latter, which is all about it. These creeds are regularly read in churches and have been for hundreds of years. If the Trinity were so easily disproven, why would it have held out and been accepted by the orthodox Christians? Why spend so much time fighting the Arians? And why, I'm sorry to ask, is it almost always Protestants? Do you think you know something that everybody in the early orthodox Church failed to grasp?

Why is there so much of this around lately? How do you explain how Jesus is God without the Trinity?

How do you explain the worship of Christ?

And why is it treated in such a light manner?

It seems to be a hobby of some of the JWs we have around here, as an alternative to parading deliberate misunderstandings of science.

 

[Sargonski]

That is actually incorrect. What you have described above is known as Modalism, not Trinitarianism. Trinitarianism claims that God is one essence, but three persons.

No .. what I have described is Trinitarianism .. "One essense" = the same person .. and shame on you for not understanding that the Trinity Doctrine claims both one person = Jesus is God the Father = Same person ,, yet also claims 3 distinct persons.

It is not like this contradiction is not well understood friend.

and it is not "same essense" but same "Substance" .. In helenistic Philosophy there are two kinds of Substances 1) that which God is made of .. and 2) that which everything else is made of .. Trees - humans - rocks.

So to say Jesus was "Homoosios" = of the same substance of God .. means that Jesus is God .. Same entity .. same person .. same mind .. same will.

While this is complete nonsense in context of the Bible .. it is what the Docrine means.

 

[Starlight]

No .. what I have described is Trinitarianism .. "One essense" = the same person .. and shame on you for not understanding that the Trinity Doctrine claims both one person = Jesus is God the Father = Same person ,, yet also claims 3 distinct persons.

It is not like this contradiction is not well understood friend.

You are wrong. According to the trinity doctrine God is three persons that share one being/substance

 

[InChrist]

The analogy of the egg that you are giving basically presents three PARTS of a whole. That is not what trinitarianism claims.

Okay, the egg analogy does fall short. The water and family concepts are somewhat closer. Nevertheless, I don’t think the idea of a triune Godhead can be dismissed just because humans may not fully understand or comprehend it.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

A lot. Because it involves kingship and -- territory. Maybe later I'll go into it. (Maybe not.)

No, apples and oranges. In the Kingdom of God, it is God who is king, not any earthly king, even Melchizadek. And like I said, the Kingdom of God is not a location.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

"One essense" = the same person ..

No, sir. That is not what Trinitarians claim. They are very adamant that God is three persons.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Okay, the egg analogy does fall short. The water and family concepts are somewhat closer. Nevertheless, I don’t think the idea of a triune Godhead can be dismissed just because humans may not fully understand or comprehend it.

There are many things I don't understand, but I do not call them all irrational. Trinitarianism is irrational. Something cannot be one thing and three things at the same time.

 

[Rival]

Okay, the egg analogy does fall short. The water and family concepts are somewhat closer. Nevertheless, I don’t think the idea of a triune Godhead can be dismissed just because humans may not fully understand or comprehend it.

Augustine gave classic expression to the psychological analogy of the Trinity in which the unity of essence is likened to the rational part of the human soul, composed as it is of “the mind, and the knowledge by which it knows itself, and the love by which it loves itself.” (464) to which he compares the persons of the Trinity.

Augustine of Hippo/On The Trinity - Wikiversity

en.wikiversity.org

 

[Starlight]

There are many things I don't understand, but I do not call them all irrational. Trinitarianism is irrational. Something cannot be one thing and three things at the same time.

I do not believe in the trinity. I am strong monotheist. I believe the Bible do not teach the trinity. The Bible teach that only the Father is God. That God is absolute one.

Yes the trinity is irrational BUT something in this world is both three and one at the same time.

An apple has three parts: the seeds, the flesh, and the skin. but at the same time it is only one apple.

An egg has three parts. At the same time it is only one egg.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I do not believe in the trinity. I am strong monotheist. I believe the Bible do not teach the trinity. The Bible teach that only the Father is God. That God is absolute one.

Yes the trinity is irrational BUT something in this world is both three and one at the same time.

An apple has three parts: the seeds, the flesh, and the skin. but at the same time it is only one apple.

An egg has three parts. At the same time it is only one egg.

saying something has three PARTS is not at all the same thing as saying that one thing is also three things. Trinitarianism does not teach that the Father Son and HS are PARTS of God, but that each is fully God despite being separate distinct persons.

 

[Starlight]

saying something has three PARTS is not at all the same thing as saying that one thing is also three things. Trinitarianism does not teach that the Father Son and HS are PARTS of God, but that each is fully God despite being separate distinct persons.

The Trinity doctrine says that God is only fully God when the three persons are present

 

[Sargonski]

You are wrong. According to the trinity doctrine God is three persons that share one being/substance

Blistering nonsense-speak ?! .. repeating what I just told you .. then crying out "you are wrong" is a very strange argument friend ??

What part "being of the same substance" -- Homoosios = the same person .. = Jesus is God == same fellow .. are you not understanding ?

You seem to understand the God is three Persons part .. its the latter you are not comprehending == this part a given readily admitted by any Layperson been through a proper Seminary Missouri Synod for example 8 years .. learning greek - latin - Hebrew .. then 1 year as a Vicar in the denomination founded by Luther .. similar for Catholic and Orthodox so ask any one of those .. simply not something disagreed upon because it is what it is .. Hellenistic Philosophy .. and by this there are two types of Substances 1) that which God is made of .. 2) that which everything else is made of . Trees -- People --planets .. KK now u understand ?

So .. you are either of the God Stuff ..or of the Not God Stuff .. get it ? So it is written .. so it shall be done as per the 700 year olds schools of Philosophy still around in the time of Emperor Constantine .. the fellow who dictated "Homoosios" upon the Church then persecuted Christians holding a different position .. Arians .. this continuing for centuries. Arians sacking Rome taking the Western Empire in the 5th century AD .. holding it for a few hundred more years

No Christian had heard of such a thing until 200 years after the death of Lord Jesus .. never mind believe that Jesus was God .. this idea viewed as both ridiculous and heretical well into the 3rd century AD.

All the founding fathers prior to this time sans who invented were subordinatists. While the question of degree of God=hood not settled .. what ever that was .. was beneath the Father .. subordinate to the Father .. the wording of the Nicene Creed an effort to appease the subordinatists of the day .

" And [we believe] in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver-of-Life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. And [we believe] in one, holy, catholic and Apostolic Church. We acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins, [and] we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.[36]"

How can the three Gods of the Trinity be Go-Equal .. if one proceeds from one of the others ? and not looking for your perspective her bro .... but the answer from a 2cnd Century Christian .. looking at this ridiculous nonsense that would come a hundred more years in the future.

But .. who cares about what all this man made dogma has to say .. lest it conforms to what we are told in the Holy Scripture by Lord Jesus .. who definitely claims to be subordinat to his God .. Hallowed be thy name .. not "My Kinddom come" but Thy kindgdom come. Jesus a mere conduit by which Humanity can received God's word .. .. described by John in helenistic philosophical terms as "The Logos" .. smartly using terminology that the people of the day would understand to better spread the Gospel.

The Church don't know about no Jesus being "The Father" doctrine .. for 10 generations after the death of Lord Jesus .. the sacrifice of a God ..as a Sin offering .. the scape-Goat upon which our sins may be forgiven .. should the right hand of the Father desire.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Trinity doctrine says that God is only fully God when the three persons are present

It says more than that. It says that God is one essense, but three distinct persons, all of whom are fully God. It absolutely does not teach that the Father Son and HS are parts that add up to God.

 

[Starlight]

It says more than that. It says that God is one essense, but three distinct persons, all of whom are fully God. It absolutely does not teach that the Father Son and HS are parts that add up to God.

Many christians both protestants, angelican, catholic and ortodox explain the trinity by say that God has tree parts that togheter is one God

 

[Kenny]

Many christians both protestants, angelican, catholic and ortodox explain the trinity by say that God has tree parts that togheter is one God

Just like a man has three parts.

 

[Sargonski]

No, sir. That is not what Trinitarians claim. They are very adamant that God is three persons.

I told you that Trinitarians Claim that God is three Persons ... why are you then stating No Sir .. that is not what Trinitarians Claim and restating what I told you ?

What kind of fallacious strawman circular nonsense is this friend ?

In addition to claiming God is three .. Trinitarians also claim that God is one ... the same substance .. the God Substance .. some of these "Persons" made of the God Substance subordinant to the big Cheese God.

3 separate minds .. separate wills .. one not knowing what the other is thinking . but sometimes with common purpose .. each made of the God stuff .. having God Powers....

but .. these three are not the only ones with God powers in the Bible.

No you don't understand the subject matter .. do you .. ?!

 

[Rival]

Why has no-one here bothered quoting the Athanasian Creed?

If you want to argue, start there.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

God is one and many simultaneously. Yes, it’s irrational. Yes, it’s true.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Many christians both protestants, angelican, catholic and ortodox explain the trinity by say that God has tree parts that togheter is one God

I'm well aware that the average Christian is unable to articulate Trinitarian doctrine. How can we blame them? It makes no sense.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I told you that Trinitarians Claim that God is three Persons ... why are you then stating No Sir .. that is not what Trinitarians Claim and restating what I told you ?

What kind of fallacious strawman circular nonsense is this friend ?

In addition to claiming God is three .. Trinitarians also claim that God is one ... the same substance .. the God Substance .. some of these "Persons" made of the God Substance subordinant to the big Cheese God.

3 separate minds .. separate wills .. one not knowing what the other is thinking . but sometimes with common purpose .. each made of the God stuff .. having God Powers....

but .. these three are not the only ones with God powers in the Bible.

No you don't understand the subject matter .. do you .. ?!

You post clearly said that Trinitarianism claimed that God was one person. THAT was what I said "no sir" to. Trinitarianism is quite clear that God is three distinct persons. It is modalism that claims God is one person, in three forms.