Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

[Ebionite]

According to Anglican Trinity Doctrine they are the Same Person - Get it .. Got it .. Good

No, they're clearly not.

The doctrine also states that they are Different Personages .. welcome to the Contradiction in this nonsensical man made dogma.

How is a personage different to a person?

You can't be Homoousious "of the same substance" and not be the same person - same mind - same will

Persons are defined by by their appearance or social status, not by their intangible nature.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Maybe limited human logic, but does that mean it’s not possible with God? One egg has three components, but it’s still one egg. Water can be liquid, vapor, or ice; still one chemical compound. One family can have mom, dad, child. The scriptures reveal One God; Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
I see no reason not to accept this revelation and information about God.

The analogy of the egg that you are giving basically presents three PARTS of a whole. That is not what trinitarianism claims.

 

[YoursTrue]

The way I see it, God's Kingdom exists wherever he is obeyed.

I cannot directly answer your questions, because they assume that the Kingdom is spiritual, and I don't think I believe that.

Just to mention, and I appreciate your thoughts -- The ancient Israelites were familiar with kings and priests, as you probably know. But Genesis 14:18 says there was only one man who had been both king and priest at the same time with God's approval. You probably know that was Melchizedek. (Genesis 14:18) Further study makes it very interesting and wonderful to understand.
"And Melchizedek, the king of Salem and a priest of God Most High, brought Abram some bread and wine."

 

[YoursTrue]

Sure, God is a spirit. But am I? I don't know if there is actually some kind of "immortal soul" that survives death. Maybe there is. Maybe there isn't. But I know that right here, right now, I definitely have a body. So when I worship God, it is not in some spiritual sense.

The Bible (including the Tanakh) does not teach that we have an "immortal spirit."

 

[Monotheist]

I've noticed on RF there are a lot of heretical (that's the technical term) Christians who disbelieve in the Trinity.

Why?

We've had the creeds since Late Antiquity (Apostolic, Nicaean, Athanasian) and they all include the Trinity, especially the latter, which is all about it. These creeds are regularly read in churches and have been for hundreds of years. If the Trinity were so easily disproven, why would it have held out and been accepted by the orthodox Christians? Why spend so much time fighting the Arians? And why, I'm sorry to ask, is it almost always Protestants? Do you think you know something that everybody in the early orthodox Church failed to grasp?

Why is there so much of this around lately? How do you explain how Jesus is God without the Trinity?

How do you explain the worship of Christ?

And why is it treated in such a light manner?

John 17:3: And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (God is the only true God and Jesus was sent by God, disproving that Jesus is one of the 3 persons inside of God as in trinity or if he is God in flesh)

John 5:30: I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me. (here Jesus was saying he could not do anything on his own, how can a god not being able to do anything of his own? Jesus was also saying that he was sent by God and he was doing what God wanted him to do, a god obeying his god?! If Jesus was god in flesh then why is he saying he was sent by God? The Old Testament says God is one)

Mark 10:18: So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. (here Jesus was saying that he was not good because the only one who is good is God meaning he is not God or part of the God as in trinity because trinity says all 3 persons in God are equal, you can’t have one of the 3 persons in trinity, meaning Jesus, denying to be good/God, so this verse disproves that Jesus was god in flesh and it also disproves trinity)

John 20:17: Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’" (here Jesus was saying he was going back to his father and their father so the term father is a symbolic term meaning a provider as a father provides. If Jesus is the son of God then he wouldn’t have said: “.. to my father and your father…”, he would have said: .. to my father. Also Jesus told his disciples; ..” my God and your God…” If Jesus was God in flesh or part of God as in trinity then he wouldn’t have said “…my God…” . How can a god have a god? Trinity states that all 3
persons in God are supposed to be equal existing in one God. Then none of the persons in trinity is god of the other two persons in trinity because then there would be more than one god, but God clearly says in The Bible that He is One God, so when Jesus said: " ….I am ascending to my God..." that disproves trinity and the idea that he is God in flesh because if he is God and he was going to his God then there would be 2 Gods, but There are clear verses in The Old Testament saying there is only one God. See the following verses in The Old Testament:

Chronicles 17:20 - There is none like you, O LORD, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears”

Deuteronomy 6:4 - “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD
Isaiah 45:5 - I am the LORD, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me,
Isaiah 42:8 - I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.

Isaiah 16:9 - Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,

Deuteronomy 4:35 - To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD Himself is God; there is none other besides Him.

Deuteronomy 32:39 ‘Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

Some say God didn't want to tell the Jews at the time of Moses that He was made of 3 persons (as in trinity) because God wanted to gradually tell His creation later at the time of Jesus and onward that He was One God but made of 3 persons (Trinity).
The answer is: Even if God told the Jews at the time of Moses that He was made of 5 persons in one God, Jews would have believed Him because of the miracles they saw, so there was no reason for God not to reveal to the Jews His true nature in The Old Testament.
Also, God does not change and He does not lie as we can see in the Old Testament verses below:

Numbers 23:19 - God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

Malachi 3:6 - For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

 

[Rival]

John 17:3: And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (God is the only true God and Jesus was sent by God, disproving that Jesus is one of the 3 persons inside of God as in trinity or if he is God in flesh)

John 5:30: I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me. (here Jesus was saying he could not do anything on his own, how can a god not being able to do anything of his own? Jesus was also saying that he was sent by God and he was doing what God wanted him to do, a god obeying his god?! If Jesus was god in flesh then why is he saying he was sent by God? The Old Testament says God is one)

Mark 10:18: So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. (here Jesus was saying that he was not good because the only one who is good is God meaning he is not God or part of the God as in trinity because trinity says all 3 persons in God are equal, you can’t have one of the 3 persons in trinity, meaning Jesus, denying to be good/God, so this verse disproves that Jesus was god in flesh and it also disproves trinity)

John 20:17: Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’" (here Jesus was saying he was going back to his father and their father so the term father is a symbolic term meaning a provider as a father provides. If Jesus is the son of God then he wouldn’t have said: “.. to my father and your father…”, he would have said: .. to my father. Also Jesus told his disciples; ..” my God and your God…” If Jesus was God in flesh or part of God as in trinity then he wouldn’t have said “…my God…” . How can a god have a god? Trinity states that all 3
persons in God are supposed to be equal existing in one God. Then none of the persons in trinity is god of the other two persons in trinity because then there would be more than one god, but God clearly says in The Bible that He is One God, so when Jesus said: " ….I am ascending to my God..." that disproves trinity and the idea that he is God in flesh because if he is God and he was going to his God then there would be 2 Gods, but There are clear verses in The Old Testament saying there is only one God. See the following verses in The Old Testament:

Chronicles 17:20 - There is none like you, O LORD, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears”

Deuteronomy 6:4 - “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD
Isaiah 45:5 - I am the LORD, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me,
Isaiah 42:8 - I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.

Isaiah 16:9 - Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,

Deuteronomy 4:35 - To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD Himself is God; there is none other besides Him.

Deuteronomy 32:39 ‘Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

Some say God didn't want to tell the Jews at the time of Moses that He was made of 3 persons (as in trinity) because God wanted to gradually tell His creation later at the time of Jesus and onward that He was One God but made of 3 persons (Trinity).
The answer is: Even if God told the Jews at the time of Moses that He was made of 5 persons in one God, Jews would have believed Him because of the miracles they saw, so there was no reason for God not to reveal to the Jews His true nature in The Old Testament.
Also, God does not change and He does not lie as we can see in the Old Testament verses below:

Numbers 23:19 - God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

Malachi 3:6 - For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

You're just throwing scripture at me.

It means nothing.

 

[Monotheist]

You're just throwing scripture at me.

It means nothing.

They show that God is one and has no partners and the messengers (including Jesus) are created beings not divine only sending God's messages

 

[YoursTrue]

I would argue that modern scholarship understands the Bible better than the church fathers did, yes.

What do you mean by church fathers?

 

[YoursTrue]

John 17:3: And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (God is the only true God and Jesus was sent by God, disproving that Jesus is one of the 3 persons inside of God as in trinity or if he is God in flesh)

John 5:30: I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me. (here Jesus was saying he could not do anything on his own, how can a god not being able to do anything of his own? Jesus was also saying that he was sent by God and he was doing what God wanted him to do, a god obeying his god?! If Jesus was god in flesh then why is he saying he was sent by God? The Old Testament says God is one)

Mark 10:18: So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. (here Jesus was saying that he was not good because the only one who is good is God meaning he is not God or part of the God as in trinity because trinity says all 3 persons in God are equal, you can’t have one of the 3 persons in trinity, meaning Jesus, denying to be good/God, so this verse disproves that Jesus was god in flesh and it also disproves trinity)

John 20:17: Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’" (here Jesus was saying he was going back to his father and their father so the term father is a symbolic term meaning a provider as a father provides. If Jesus is the son of God then he wouldn’t have said: “.. to my father and your father…”, he would have said: .. to my father. Also Jesus told his disciples; ..” my God and your God…” If Jesus was God in flesh or part of God as in trinity then he wouldn’t have said “…my God…” . How can a god have a god? Trinity states that all 3
persons in God are supposed to be equal existing in one God. Then none of the persons in trinity is god of the other two persons in trinity because then there would be more than one god, but God clearly says in The Bible that He is One God, so when Jesus said: " ….I am ascending to my God..." that disproves trinity and the idea that he is God in flesh because if he is God and he was going to his God then there would be 2 Gods, but There are clear verses in The Old Testament saying there is only one God. See the following verses in The Old Testament:

Chronicles 17:20 - There is none like you, O LORD, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears”

Deuteronomy 6:4 - “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD
Isaiah 45:5 - I am the LORD, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me,
Isaiah 42:8 - I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.

Isaiah 16:9 - Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,

Hello. Perhaps you remember the scripture where Jesus said the Father is GREATER than he is. That kind of tells me that Jesus is not equal to the Father. What does it say to you?
John 14:28 - New International Version
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Just to mention, and I appreciate your thoughts -- The ancient Israelites were familiar with kings and priests, as you probably know. But Genesis 14:18 says there was only one man who had been both king and priest at the same time with God's approval. You probably know that was Melchizedek. (Genesis 14:18) Further study makes it very interesting and wonderful to understand.
"And Melchizedek, the king of Salem and a priest of God Most High, brought Abram some bread and wine."

Sure. But I'm not sure what this information has to do with the topic.

 

[Ebionite]

They show that God is one

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:26, KJV

 

[YoursTrue]

Sure. But I'm not sure what this information has to do with the topic.

Because Melchizedek was a king and a priest and brought bread and wine to Abraham, who was not an Israelite. King and priest in same body. Maybe later in another discussion about the Law.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Because Melchizedek was a king and a priest and brought bread and wine to Abraham, who was not an Israelite. King and priest in same body. Maybe later in another discussion about the Law.

Well, the discussion was about what is the Kingdom of God. I'm not sure how Melchizadek being both a priest and king relates to that.

 

[Sargonski]

No, they're clearly not.


How is a personage different to a person?


Persons are defined by by their appearance or social status, not by their intangible nature.

You have no clue what you are talking about ..... The Trinity doctrine states that Jesus and God are the same Person .. and it also states that they are not the same person .

The Anglican Gibberish you posted uses the term "Same Substance" = Homoousios = Same Person --- and has nothing to do with appearance or social status .. That you do not understand the subject matter is the only thing that is clear here.

A personage is not different than a person in context of the trinity .. so why do you ask how they are different as if completely lost in the conversation ?

 

[YoursTrue]

Well, the discussion was about what is the Kingdom of God. I'm not sure how Melchizadek being both a priest and king relates to that.

Abraham is said to be the father of the Jews. And it does involve a kingdom. Melchizedek is also said to have been King of Salem. It is believed that Salem eventually was Jerusalem.
The account in Genesis is very interesting, I intend to go over it later. Thank you for bringing it up as a question.

Genesis 14:18,19

And Malchizedek the king of Salem brought out bread and wine, and he was a priest to the Most High God.
19And he blessed him, and he said, "Blessed be Abram to the Most High God, Who possesses heaven and earth.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Trinity doctrine states that Jesus and God are the same Person

That is actually incorrect. What you have described above is known as Modalism, not Trinitarianism. Trinitarianism claims that God is one essence, but three persons.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Abraham is said to be the father of the Jews. And it does involve a kingdom. Melchizedek is also said to have been King of Salem. It is believed that Salem eventually was Jerusalem.
The account in Genesis is very interesting, I intend to go over it later. Thank you for bringing it up as a question.

Genesis 14:18,19

And Malchizedek the king of Salem brought out bread and wine, and he was a priest to the Most High God.
19And he blessed him, and he said, "Blessed be Abram to the Most High God, Who possesses heaven and earth.

Again, what does any of this have to do with the question of what is the Kingdom of God?

 

[YoursTrue]

Again, what does any of this have to do with the question of what is the Kingdom of God?

A lot. Because it involves kingship and -- territory. Maybe later I'll go into it. (Maybe not.)

 

[YoursTrue]

Hello. Perhaps you remember the scripture where Jesus said the Father is GREATER than he is. That kind of tells me that Jesus is not equal to the Father. What does it say to you?
John 14:28 - New International Version
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

@Monotheist Hi again. How you do feel about the above scripture, since we are discussing the trinity. I do not believe that God is a triune composition, but have you ever read the above scripture at John 14:28, and what do you think it means? Some would say that Jesus was "God in the flesh," but if that were so, (which it is not) since Jesus said he is the truth, he would have stated that as "God in the flesh" he is not equal to God somehow. But he did not. He said that the father is GREATER than he is. Not equal. To two other persons either. Thanks for your thoughts on this.

 

[walt]

Someone asked me if the Trinity is possible? Why can't God be 3 persons in one God, with the three being equal to each-other and without beginning? I think anything is possible? but don't you think somehow it would be better to take Jesus advise?

So many people believed whatever Jesus said in his 3 1/2 year ministry, so much so they repeated it over and over at least 40 times in the Bible. Even the centurion a Roman commander heard about Jesus and said...“Surely he was the Son of God!” Matt. 27:54

Jesus teaches this:
Jn. 17:3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

Jn. 11:4 But when Jesus heard it, he said: “This sickness is not meant to end in death, but is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”

(Matthew 16:15-17)
15 He said to them, “And who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven!”

John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Jn.14:1 Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. NIV

Jesus is called Son of God before he is even born as a human:
The angel told Mary her child would be the Son of God (Luke 1:31-35).

Jesus is The Father's Son at a young age: This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt I called my son" Matt. 2:13-15

The Father's Voice from heaven says: this is My Son.. at his baptism and transfiguration:
Matt.3:16-17; Matt.17:5

Jesus also becomes his Father's Son after his Faithful life on earth, Resurrection, Exaltation and Crowning as King of his Kingdom. Acts 2:32-35; Phil.2:9-11
Heb.5:5-8 “You are my Son. Today I have become your Father.”

John the Baptist said the same thing (John 1:34).

Nathanael said it (John 1:49).

Martha believed it (John 11:27).

What do you think about using Jesus words to form our beliefs?