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Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

stvdv

Veteran Member
True, but not all claim "Jesus, and Jesus alone"

Which causes this problem in the first place

What problem is that?
You can't see that?
My explanation was very simple and clear
If someone wants to believe in Jesus and Jesus alone, I may disagree with them, but they are within their rights.
Not within their rights:
No one has the right to belittle other's Faith, feelings

They can bash, belittle others with their Jesus claims, but then don't complain if others bash (or kill) you in return. Back to where we started, OP question answered clearly
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Proselytizing, although annoying, is not bashing.
Tell that to those bashing Christians in return
Or those killing proselytizing Christians

Proving proselytizing is the worst bashing
As it has such an effect for 2000++ years
Indeed, any free society has to allow proselytizing as part of freedom of religion.
No.

They should declare proselytizing = bashing

Killing physically is not tolerated
Hence
Killing emotionally (trampling other's Faith)
Should not be tolerated/promoted either
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
High Christology is the earliest theology that we find in our earliest Christian texts.
Yes, that's true but it was not the only theology. Adoptionism is also early.

And early Christology didn't define all the details that were debated latter on the councils. Accepting the pre-existence of Christ wasn't the same as accepting his full divinity in the Trinitarian sense.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Yes, that's true but it was not the only theology. Adoptionism is also early.

And early Christology didn't define all the details that were debated latter on the councils. Accepting the pre-existence of Christ wasn't the same as accepting his full divinity in the Trinitarian sense.

Agreed, it was early - I think starting with Cerinthus in the late first century. We can see in the second and third Johannine epistles that the community of the fourth gospel had been split between Incarnationists (divine from birth) and Adoptionists who believed that the human Jesus had been possessed by the Divine Eternal Logos at his baptism. The Johannine prologue appears to have been composed to counter this.

However, my point was that the New Testament presents a high Christology in all of its texts. Paul just assumes in the 50s CE (when the apostles and Jesus's brothers were still alive and referred to in these letters) that his audience are already aware of, and believe, in Christ's eternal, pre-existent divinity - and we have ample evidence to contend, therefore, that the apostolic generation believed that their Messiah was a supramundane being in human form, like the Son of Man in the Enoch literature or Melchizedek from Qumran. They thought he had conquered death, after all and ascended to heaven - is it little wonder then that, whilst undergoing these 'mystical' experiences of his resurrected state communicating with them from heaven, that they came to believe (using the pre-existent Jewish binitarian theology that I alluded to in my last post) that he was eternally divine, indeed the Wisdom of God through whom the Father had created the worlds?

Now, whether the pre-existent divine 'Jesus' should be understood along later Nicene or Arian lines - there was a legitimate debate there that arose later. But that he pre-existed eternally as a divine being before the universe, that was not seriously doubted from the earliest days by the vast majority of Christians and nor was the contention that YHWH should be spoken of triadically with reference to Father, Son and Holy Spirit, even if Christians had not yet agreed on the ontic 'why' or 'how' of this.

This is why even in those early Christian texts that lack much in the way of metaphysical or miraculous interest, such as the Gospel of Thomas which presents Jesus more as a kind of Jewish Socrates (a mystagogue of hidden divine knowledge, whose words once meditated upon and practised can lead one to heavenly bliss here on earth) with no references to his purported resurrection/ascension or focus on miracles, still affirm a very high Christology:

(77) Jesus said: I am the light that is above them all. I am the all; the all came forth from me, and the all attained to me. Cleave a (piece of) wood; I am there. Raise up a stone, and you will find me there.
Gerd Ludemann writes: "Jesus identifies himself with light (cf. John 8.12; 9.5), which is tremendously important in Thomas: 11.3b; 24.3; 50.1; 61.5; 83.1-2. Jesus claims to be mediator at creation (cf. Romans 11.36; 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:16). All this recalls the role of wisdom. The presence of Jesus as it is described in vv. 2-3 echoes Matt. 18.20; 28.20 - but in that passage, too, there is a wisdom background." (Jesus After 2000 Years, p. 629).

Since a lot of people - even those of a modern secular perspective - like Jesus given how his teachings (on such things as universal love for all even one's enemies, non-judgmentalism and inclusion of the societally discriminated, minority or disadvantaged (i.e. Good Samaritan, disabled, lepers, prostitutes)) have profoundly influenced and shaped contemporary Western ethical assumptions, it's sometimes more comforting for us to cast Jesus as something like a good wise man, a Jewish Socrates if you will. I think, in their minds, if we cannot enlightenment-icize, rationalize and domesticate Jesus in terms we can relate to, like Jefferson did in his Bible, as a moral philosopher or self-help guru - then they think it somehow devalues what he taught, because it must've come from a disturbed or supremely egotistical/grandiose-thinking mind (in our terms). But that is pure historical anachronism.

The problem here is that no early follower of his understood their Messiah in that way, as a Socrates-style sage - because he was the leader of a mystical, apocalyptic Second Temple Jewish restoration movement with a very different worldview to ours. They actually did think he was divine and pre-existent. The Emperor governing the Roman world at Jesus's birth had himself been elevated into the Graeco-Roman pantheon as a god and styled himself with divine cultic honours. Within the intellectual horizons of the first century world, it would have been both comprehensible and plausible for an extremely charismatic figure leading an apocalyptic movement, who was reputed to be able to work miracles and teach moral truths with authority, to claim or be acclaimed divinity.

It just strikes many modern people as unthinkable that such a figure as the Jesus of the gospels (whom Paul in his 2nd Letter to the Corinthians 10:1 notes was renowned by his early followers for his gentleness: "Now I, Paul, myself exhort you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ") could have claimed or been acclaimed in ways that, to us, look like something a psychopathic or narcissistic cult leader today might declare about themselves - but that just bespeaks the very different 'symbolic universe' we inhabit post-scientific revolution and darwinism. That's why the idea that Jesus was this nice Jewish Rabbi bloke who taught a very humanistic understanding of his religion and was elevated to godhood by Constantine centuries later is so popular amongst people who haven't actually studied the historical Jesus movement academically, even though its utter BS and about as far away from the reality as possible. His earliest followers literally had a cult of Jesus worship after his death and invoked his name in the shema, the prayer directed towards the one God of Israel.

But to return to my main point: that Jesus pre-existed eternally as a divine being before the universe was not seriously doubted from the earliest days by the vast majority of Christians and nor was the contention that YHWH should be spoken of triadically with reference to Father, Son and Holy Spirit, even if Christians had not yet agreed on the ontic 'why' or 'how' of this.


Pliny the Younger, the Roman governor of Bithynia and Pontus (now in modern Turkey), wrote a letter to Emperor Trajan around AD 110 and asked for counsel on dealing with the early Christian community. The letter details an account of how Pliny conducted trials of suspected Christians who appeared before him as a result of anonymous accusations and asks for the Emperor's guidance on how they should be treated.[1][2]
The letter is the first pagan account to refer to Christianity, providing key information on early Christian beliefs and practices and how these were viewed and dealt with by the Romans.[2][5][6]
"They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition."
 
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walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
Throughout this thread I have copied many things Jesus and The Apostles gave to the first congregations, words of loving direction and good advice, I have received so much joy I could cry in happiness reading and then doing what Jesus and the Apostles say.. I was very stubborn at first, when I would read Jesus words I did not listen to them at all.. but I feel I have found peace and joy I have been looking for 65 years. I wish I would have started putting faith in Jesus words and the Apostles when I was ten years old!

I give thanks to everyone looking for Goodness, Happiness, Joy and so much more.. I have finally found a Zest for living at my age, I am not saying that I have that fully, but I sure love the direction I'm going! --Your friend in Christ and his Loving Father Always and Forever. :blush:
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
To understand the word of God is a wonderful thing.

Right ... now if we can just find someone who has acomplished this feat .. we might be able to actualize this wonderfullness.

First things first however -- What is the Name of the God Who's word we are wanting to understand ? .. Which God do we pray to "hollowed be thy name" ?
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
However, my point was that the New Testament presents a high Christology in all of its texts.
In all? Scholarship has been divided about that...

... that they came to believe (using the pre-existent Jewish binitarian theology that I alluded to in my last post) that he was eternally divine, indeed the Wisdom of God through whom the Father had created the worlds?
Wisdom is sometimes just poetically personified in OT. It is not God - it belongs to God. Chochmah is considered God's attribute/emanation.

Who is a God as great as our God who answers us whenever we call/pray out to Him ... To Him, but not to His attributes. (Sefer Sifri Vaeschanan)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I understand a little, but I keep searching the scriptures until I can find agreement, if possible complete harmony trying to get God's Spirit inspired Direction and advice. Then most all the scriptures seem to make better sense.

1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.

Romans 16:17 Now I urge you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who create divisions and causes for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them.

2 Corinthians 13:11 For the rest, brethren, rejoice; be perfected; be encouraged; be of one mind; be at peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. --Darby Translation

Philippians 2:2 make my joy full by being of the same mind and having the same love, being completely united, having the one thought in mind.
Yes. It truly is wonderful to understand more about the Bible and Jesus. I would go to church, hear the sermons, but never understood why Jesus had to die. Now I do. It makes sense. Now. I do like the scripture very much where Jesus said "The Father is greater than I am."
John 14:28 - "You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.+
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes, the very people that Yeshua warned you about were actually the the truth tellers after all. /sarc
It's time for me to get off the board, but I would like to know what you mean by that. Can you please explain? Hopefully see your explanation in a few hours. :)
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
It's time for me to get off the board, but I would like to know what you mean by that. Can you please explain? Hopefully see your explanation in a few hours. :)
What I mean by that is that the meaning of the parable of the leaven applies to people like Paul.

Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Matthew 16:6

Then understood they how that he bade [them] not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Matthew 16:12

But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men [and] brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
Acts 23:6

For some context, Acts 23 describes what happened after James put Paul to the test in the temple over his teaching relating to the law of Moses. This is well after Paul was teaching within the early Christian community.

And when he had found Paul, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Acts 11:26
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
What I mean by that is that the meaning of the parable of the leaven applies to people like Paul.

Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Matthew 16:6

Then understood they how that he bade [them] not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Matthew 16:12

But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men [and] brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
Acts 23:6

For some context, Acts 23 describes what happened after James put Paul to the test in the temple over his teaching relating to the law of Moses. This is well after Paul was teaching within the early Christian community.

And when he had found Paul, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Acts 11:26
Well, that's interesting to research because Paul was a Pharisee and yet the Pharisees wanted him to be put to death because of his preaching of the Lord Jesus after his conversion.
Notice please what is said in Acts 26 by Paul, "And now I stand on trial because of my hope in the promise that God made to our fathers, 7the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to realize as they earnestly serve God day and night. It is because of this hope, O king, that I am accused by the Jews. 8Why would any of you consider it incredible that God raises the dead?" The chapter is brief enough but very interesting when he was speaking before Agrippa.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Well, that's interesting to research because Paul was a Pharisee and yet the Pharisees wanted him to be put to death because of his preaching of the Lord Jesus after his conversion.
The political doctrine "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" doesn't hold up because enemies do not necessarily act rationally. The idea that Paul wasn't rational was expressed by Festus:

And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.
Acts 26:24

Notice please what is said in Acts 26 by Paul, "And now I stand on trial because of my hope in the promise that God made to our fathers, 7the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to realize as they earnestly serve God day and night. It is because of this hope, O king, that I am accused by the Jews. 8Why would any of you consider it incredible that God raises the dead?" The chapter is brief enough but very interesting when he was speaking before Agrippa.
The actual reason that Paul was on trial was because of his opposition to the law of Moses, particularly circumcision.

And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs.
What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Acts 21:21-24

In Acts 26 There's also a marked difference between what Paul said that his role was and the role that was described in Acts 9.

And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Acts 26:14-18

Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Acts 9:13-16
 

walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
How can a cup of coffee prove anything?

Is it possible for any life to come about without assistance from any intelligent source? When I have a cup of coffee do I get assistance to make the coffee from nobody, meaning "all by itself" ? Every step to make the coffee I do myself, some of the steps I don't have to do because the coffee machine does it for me, but the coffee machine was designed and made by somebody. So does any step get done with the assistance of
[ nobody ] even the tiniest step? [ No! ] Is there not any assistance that happens all by itself? [ No! ] Does the coffee cup show up on the counter by itself? does the spoon show up so you can stir the coffee? Does anything show up all by itself? Does anything get done in the process of making a cup of coffee? Does anything happen all by itself? If a billion years of time passed would the sugar or cream ever get into the coffee cup
"all by itself" ? No!

A human being is very complex. If we can't even get sugar in our coffee cup all by itself, How does the oxygen cycle exist? The water cycle exist? Every life on Earth? Gravity? You name it? If you ever want to know what Life on Earth would look like without "Any" assistance just look at any other planet.
 
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Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
I personally like the idea of the Trinity. One of the reasons I feel close to Pan (and other human-animal gods) is because they are beasts, gods, and human. They represent a kind of symbolic psyche of the ID, Ego, and Superego: our animal selves, our community/social selves, and our individualistic selves. God as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit represents parts of what we has humans can be. Aside from a literal interpretation, I see no reason to object to a 3-in-1 God. Like us (to paraphrase Whitman) God must contain multitudes.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
John 14:28 - "You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.+
John 14
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

The question is: How will Jesus come again? Certainly not in the same body He had when He walked the earth 2000 years ago, because if Jesus came in that body, the world would be able to SEE HIM.

John 14
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I personally like the idea of the Trinity.
I also like the idea of the Trinity, but I do not believe in three persons who were part of One God as the Trinitarians believe.

The Baha’i Faith teaches a Trinity, and the detailed explanation is in this chapter: 27: THE TRINITY
Below is a brief encapsulation of my beliefs.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one in the sense that they are ‘one in Purpose.’ They work together, but they are separate, not ‘part of God.’

God is exalted above anything that can ever be perceived so God remains in His own high place, on His Throne. God never descends to earth. God cannot be divided into parts.

God sent Jesus from heaven and Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit from the womb of Mary into a human body. Later, after Jesus reached a certain age, God sent the Holy Spirit to Him and it descended upon Him like a dove when Jesus was baptized. After Jesus received the Holy Spirit from God the Father, Jesus brought the Holy Spirit to believers.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You can't see that?
My explanation was very simple and clear

Not within their rights:
No one has the right to belittle other's Faith, feelings

They can bash, belittle others with their Jesus claims, but then don't complain if others bash (or kill) you in return. Back to where we started, OP question answered clearly
Disagreeing with or criticizing someone's views is not necessarily the same thing as bashing and/or belittling someone's views.

And speaking for myself, I've learnt a great deal by being wrong. The important thing is to assess the critique.

But then, I believe truth has an objective standard. One of the delights of religion is freedom from such a relentless taskmaster.
 
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