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Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

T

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Rival said:
I've noticed on RF there are a lot of heretical (that's the technical term) Christians who disbelieve in the Trinity.

Why?

We've had the creeds since Late Antiquity (Apostolic, Nicaean, Athanasian) and they all include the Trinity, especially the latter, which is all about it. These creeds are regularly read in churches and have been for hundreds of years. If the Trinity were so easily disproven, why would it have held out and been accepted by the orthodox Christians? Why spend so much time fighting the Arians? And why, I'm sorry to ask, is it almost always Protestants? Do you think you know something that everybody in the early orthodox Church failed to grasp?

Why is there so much of this around lately? How do you explain how Jesus is God without the Trinity?

How do you explain the worship of Christ?

And why is it treated in such a light manner?
Click to expand...
In my view, there is no Trinity. There is no mention of it in the NT. The apostles never taught it. However John said even now are there many antichrists - they went out from us. 1 John 2:18-19 Some had gone out from the apostles and started teaching other things contrary to what the apostles taught. Those creeds were developed after the apostles had died.

Here is how I explain he is God without the Trinity:

The apostles taught that God is a Spirit. John 4:24
And God is holy. He said be ye holy for I am holy.
There is only one Spirit of God. Ephesians 4:4
God had said he would pour out his spirit on all flesh. Joel 2:28 So the holy Spirit wasn't a 2nd person. It was just the holy Spirit of God.

As further proof that the Holy Spirit is the Father, just look at Matthew 1:18 - she was found with child of the holy Spirit. And Matthew 1:20 - that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. So that makes the Holy Spirit the Father of that child.

Isaiah foretold that a child (a son) would be born. And that he would be called the Mighty God, and the Everlasting Father. Isaiah 9:6 And that he would reign on Davids throne from that time on and forever. - Isaiah 9:7 (When the Messiah ascended with a spiritual body after the resurrection, he took the throne and reigns forever.)

The Messiah taught that he could do nothing without the Father. Meaning the flesh could do nothing without the Spirit. The Spirit was dwelling in that body. - John 14:10

He taught that He and the Father were one. John 10:30 (The flesh (the body) and the Spirit are not two separate persons.)
Phillip asked him to show them the Father. He told Phillip - Have I been so long with you and you still don't know me? If you have SEEN me, you have SEEN the Father. John 14:8-9 The Father was the one dwelling in that body.

The Messiah was the image (or you could say the body) of the invisible God. See Colossians 2:9 and Colossians 1:14-15

That explains how the Messiah was God. God had taken on a temporary physical body. God was dwelling in, and using that body to bring salvation. ( Because the Spirit didn't have blood. ) He could call the body his Son because he had Fathered the body. Once it was resurrected it became an eternal spiritual body. He ascended to take the throne and reigns forever as prophecied in Isaiah 9:7
 
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TransmutingSoul

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
TrueBeliever37 said:
In my view, there is no Trinity. There is no mention of it in the NT. The apostles never taught it. However John said even now are there many antichrists - they went out from us. 1 John 2:18-19 Some had gone out from the apostles and started teaching other things contrary to what the apostles taught. Those creeds were developed after the apostles had died.

Here is how I explain he is God without the Trinity:

The apostles taught that God is a Spirit. John 4:24
And God is holy. He said be ye holy for I am holy.
There is only one Spirit of God. Ephesians 4:4
God had said he would pour out his spirit on all flesh. Joel 2:28 So the holy Spirit wasn't a 2nd person. It was just the holy Spirit of God.

As further proof that the Holy Spirit is the Father, just look at Matthew 1:18 - she was found with child of the holy Spirit. And Matthew 1:20 - that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. So that makes the Holy Spirit the Father of that child.

Isaiah foretold that a child (a son) would be born. And that he would be called the Mighty God, and the Everlasting Father. Isaiah 9:6 And that he would reign on Davids throne from that time on and forever. - Isaiah 9:7 (When the Messiah ascended with a spiritual body after the resurrection, he took the throne and reigns forever.)

The Messiah taught that he could do nothing without the Father. Meaning the flesh could do nothing without the Spirit. The Spirit was dwelling in that body. - John 14:10

He taught that He and the Father were one. John 10:30 (The flesh (the body) and the Spirit are not two separate persons.)
Phillip asked him to show them the Father. He told Phillip - Have I been so long with you and you still don't know me? If you have SEEN me, you have SEEN the Father. John 14:8-9 The Father was the one dwelling in that body.

The Messiah was the image (or you could say the body) of the invisible God. See Colossians 2:9 and Colossians 1:14-15

That explains how the Messiah was God. God had taken on a temporary physical body. God was dwelling in, and using that body to bring salvation. ( Because the Spirit didn't have blood. ) He could call the body his Son because he had Fathered the body. Once it was resurrected it became an eternal spiritual body. He ascended to take the throne and reigns forever as prophecied in Isaiah 9:7
Click to expand...
One can also consider that God is above descent. That is meaning of the story of the virgin birth. The Holy Spirit is pre-existing, the Holy Spirit is "Christ", it is all we can know of God, but it does no define God, the Holy Spirit defined Jesus as the Christ ( Annointed One).

So even though Jesus was born from his mother's womb, the Essence of Jesus, the Holy Sprit was already pre-existing. The Holy Spirit is also created of God, it is the first cause amd the last cause, the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. It is the all the attributes, the light of God, but not God in Essence.

A metephor is the Sun and the mirror, God the Sun and Jesus as the perfect mirror. God produces the rays and chooses the mirror (Chosen Messiah) The Ray's of the Sun, the Holy Spirit, perfect and unblemished are reflected by Jesus to the Earth (Humanity).

All of humanity are bathed in that light, yet only those that embrace the giver of the light know of the source.

Regards Tony
 
T

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
TransmutingSoul said:
One can also consider that God is above descent. That is meaning of the story of the virgin birth. The Holy Spirit is pre-existing, the Holy Spirit is "Christ", it is all we can know of God, but it does no define God, the Holy Spirit defined Jesus as the Christ ( Annointed One).

So even though Jesus was born from his mother's womb, the Essence of Jesus, the Holy Sprit was already pre-existing. The Holy Spirit is also created of God, it is the first cause amd the last cause, the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. It is the all the attributes, the light of God, but not God in Essence.

A metephor is the Sun and the mirror, God the Sun and Jesus as the perfect mirror. God produces the rays and chooses the mirror (Chosen Messiah) The Ray's of the Sun, the Holy Spirit, perfect and unblemished are reflected by Jesus to the Earth (Humanity).

All of humanity are bathed in that light, yet only those that embrace the giver of the light know of the source.

Regards Tony
Click to expand...
The Holy Spirit is God. God is a Spirit and God is holy.
 
T

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Kenny said:
Exactly. That being body, soul (mind, will and emotions) and spirit. Three parts, each with a different purpose and materiality, and yet one person.
Click to expand...
That is not what the Trinity teaches. It teaches 3 separate and distinct persons that are each God. (And yet somehow claims that is only belief in one God.)
 
TransmutingSoul

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
TrueBeliever37 said:
God is a Spirit and made himself a body to dwell in. So the Messiah was GOD dwelling in a bodily form.

That's why it said "to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." Acts 20:28
Click to expand...
Jesus said the flesh amounts to nothing and it is the Spirit that is the life and light.

So we can conclude that God, the Holy Spirit can dwell in another Body, whenever God so chooses, agreed?

Jesus did say he will be called by a new Name, a name that only those that accept it will recognise Christ, the Holy Spirit.

Regards Tony
 
Kenny

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
TrueBeliever37 said:
That is not what the Trinity teaches. It teaches 3 separate and distinct persons that are each God. (And yet somehow claims that is only belief in one God.)
Click to expand...
As a believer in the Godhead… we say One God manifest in three persons. Just like you are one person manifested in three parts - a spirit (which is you), a body (which is you) that has a soul (which is you). Each with a different materiality and/or purpose but still one person.
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
TrueBeliever37 said:
And that is really belief in 3 Gods, while claiming it to only be belief in One God.
Click to expand...
So then are you saying the Carlton family down the street from me with a mom, dad, and a child is actually three families, not one?
The scriptures present One Godhead of plurality wherein the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have always and do eternally exist, love, fellowship, and commune together.

Moreover, if God is a single Being, then why is the plural Hebrew noun elohim (literally "gods") used for God repeatedly? In fact, this plural noun is in the center of Israel's famous confession of the oneness of God! The Shema declares, "Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord" (Deut 6:4; Mk 12:29). In the Hebrew it reads, "Jehovah our elohim [gods] is one [echad] Jehovah." The Hebrew word echad allows for a unity of more than one. For example, it is used in Genesis:2:24
where man and woman become one flesh; in Exodus:36:13 when the various parts "became one troop” ; and elsewhere.
www.thebereancall.org

The Trinity

Many Christians are at a loss to understand, much less to defend, the "Trinity." Critics argue that that word is not even found in the Bible. To deal with that issue, we must begin with God,
www.thebereancall.org www.thebereancall.org
 
Messianic Israelite

Messianic Israelite

Active Member
Rival said:
I've noticed on RF there are a lot of heretical (that's the technical term) Christians who disbelieve in the Trinity.

Why?

We've had the creeds since Late Antiquity (Apostolic, Nicaean, Athanasian) and they all include the Trinity, especially the latter, which is all about it. These creeds are regularly read in churches and have been for hundreds of years. If the Trinity were so easily disproven, why would it have held out and been accepted by the orthodox Christians? Why spend so much time fighting the Arians? And why, I'm sorry to ask, is it almost always Protestants? Do you think you know something that everybody in the early orthodox Church failed to grasp?

Why is there so much of this around lately? How do you explain how Jesus is God without the Trinity?

How do you explain the worship of Christ?

And why is it treated in such a light manner?
Click to expand...

Good morning Rival.

The Protestant Reformation was a series of events that happened in the 16th century in the Catholic Church. Because of corruption in the Catholic Church, some people saw that the way it worked needed to change. People like Erasmus, Huldrych Zwingli, Martin Luther and John Calvin saw the corruption and tried to stop it. The Catholic Ch-rch is not the authority when it comes to the Bible and actually they have been guilty of some terrible atrocities against the Jews and against groups which were far more closer to the Truth and righteous than they were. In the book 'The History of the Waldenses' by J. A. Wylie which was published in 1860 and it was republished in 1996 show just some of the horrible things the Catholics were doing, in this case, against the Waldenses of Vaudois and others as well, which were actually remnants of the Apostolic Assembly. Yahweh made a way for True Worship by opening up the United States of America where religious freedom was promised and many of those groups who were historically persecuted by the Roman Catholic Ch-rch were able to settle there. I don't think people appreciate just how bad of a time it was when the Roman Catholics had it their way. The Roman Catholics have so much false doctrine, the Trinity being one of them, that I personally don't see how any Bible student could be a Roman Catholic. I mean, they even worship 'Mary' as the 'queen of heaven'. Mary, whose actual name was Miriam, isn't in heaven, she is dead and she will be resurrected at the coming of the Master Yahshua when He returns. The Roman Catholics were raping, looting, torturing, murdering, quartering, disemboweling, massacring and killing babies, children and women. They were monsters. Anyway, gone a bit off track there. My point is, the Roman Catholic Ch-rch is not the Truth and when the Bible became accessible to the masses, people could read the Bible for themselves and see that yes, the teachings espoused by the RCC were not Biblical.

It is a shame that with the reformation efforts, the reform to get back to the Bible and pure doctrines found therein were not wholehearted and many groups have gone back to a liberal standpoint. Only the Assemblies of Yahweh is proclaiming the true doctrines of the Bible in our modern day society and the keeping of the Biblical Law as was espoused by our Savior Yahshua the Messiah and His disciples. True Worship has been reconstituted by closely examining what the Messiah taught and what the Word of Yahweh says in the Bible and the Trinity is not one of them. Jews do not recognize the Trinity. It's completely foreign to the Hebrew Scriptures, and Chr-stians have taken a couple of scriptures from the New Testament out of context to prooftext a doctrine that comes from the pagan practice of worshiping triads.
 
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