Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

[Ebionite]

In fact, this plural noun is in the center of Israel's famous confession of the oneness of God! The Shema declares, "Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord" (Deut 6:4; Mk 12:29). In the Hebrew it reads, "Jehovah our elohim [gods] is one [echad] Jehovah."

Actually not.

שמע ישראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד

shema yishreal YHWH elohinuw YHWH ehad

Hear Israel, YHWH elah of you, YHWH is one

Deuteronomy 6:4

 

[Ebionite]

a doctrine that comes from the pagan practice of worshiping triads.

Sol Invictus - Temple in Campus Martius

 

[walt]

I Imagine and Meditate, My Greatest Joy is to Listen to what the Bible says!

 

[PearlSeeker]

... a doctrine that comes from the pagan practice of worshiping triads.

Can you provide any evidence?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

As a believer in the Godhead… we say One God manifest in three persons. Just like you are one person manifested in three parts - a spirit (which is you), a body (which is you) that has a soul (which is you). Each with a different materiality and/or purpose but still one person.

A body without the spirit (breath) is dead. The Trinity teaches that each of those 3 different persons is God.

I'm one person. You say God is three persons. You don't see a difference?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

So then are you saying the Carlton family down the street from me with a mom, dad, and a child is actually three families, not one?
The scriptures present One Godhead of plurality wherein the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have always and do eternally exist, love, fellowship, and commune together.

Moreover, if God is a single Being, then why is the plural Hebrew noun elohim (literally "gods") used for God repeatedly? In fact, this plural noun is in the center of Israel's famous confession of the oneness of God! The Shema declares, "Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord" (Deut 6:4; Mk 12:29). In the Hebrew it reads, "Jehovah our elohim [gods] is one [echad] Jehovah." The Hebrew word echad allows for a unity of more than one. For example, it is used in Genesis:2:24
where man and woman become one flesh; in Exodus:36:13 when the various parts "became one troop” ; and elsewhere.

The Trinity

Many Christians are at a loss to understand, much less to defend, the "Trinity." Critics argue that that word is not even found in the Bible. To deal with that issue, we must begin with God,

www.thebereancall.org

Show us a scripture where the Godhead is said to be a family. That is just some made-up talk that's not scriptural.

He is a God of many attributes. The verbs in the sentences associated with elohim show it to be singular not plural in meaning.

Using your logic, which member of the family was the Father of the Son?

 

[Kenny]

A body without the spirit (breath) is dead.

But we receive a new body which brings back the trinity of man. Each portion is still “a man"

The Trinity teaches that each of those 3 different persons is God.

Please see above

I'm one person. You say God is three persons. You don't see a difference?

No… your body is who you are. It is made of one materiality and for one purpose
Your soul is who you are. It is created of a materiality for one purpose
Your spirit is who you are. It is created of a materiality for one specific purpose

 

[Trailblazer]

No… your body is who you are. It is made of one materiality and for one purpose
Your soul is who you are. It is created of a materiality for one purpose
Your spirit is who you are. It is created of a materiality for one specific purpose

What do you mean by "a materiality?"
Why do you think our body is who we are?

I believe that the body was created for a purpose.
I believe that the soul was created for a purpose.

I believe the soul is who we are and the body is just a vehicle by which the soul expresses itself when we are alive in a physical body.
After the physical body dies the soul expressed itself through a spiritual body.

I believe that the soul is the human spirit. How do you differentiate the soul and the spirit?

 

[Dimi95]

A body without the spirit (breath) is dead. The Trinity teaches that each of those 3 different persons is God.

I doubt that you have ever read the doctrine of the Trinity

I'm one person. You say God is three persons. You don't see a difference?

So God is a person like you , since you compared person with person?
What is one and what is oneness?
What is person according to human , and what is person according to God?
What is the Hebrew word "echad" , do you know?

 

[Kenny]

What do you mean by "a materiality?"

The components of our body has a different materiality than our spirit

Why do you think our body is who we are?

Is part of who we are. Without it we wouldn’t be here and when we receive our new body, that isn’t cursed, we will be a triune being agaion

I believe that the body was created for a purpose.
I believe that the soul was created for a purpose.

Yes!!

I believe the soul is who we are and the body is just a vehicle by which the soul expresses itself when we are alive in a physical body.
After the physical body dies the soul expressed itself through a spiritual body.

Yes… we probably will believe differently. Jesus has a body, it is a spiritual body but it is not his spirit.

I believe that the soul is the human spirit. How do you differentiate the soul and the spirit?

I differentiate them because of the scriptures that we adhere by:

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit,


1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 26:9
With my soul I have desired You in the night, Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early; For when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

To the best of my knowledge, and I certainly don’t know everything, our soul is our mind, will and emotions; our spirit is what makes us eternal and it is by which the Holy Spirit joins with us and communicates through our spirit unto our soul.

 

[Trailblazer]

The components of our body has a different materiality than our spirit

I am still not sure what you mean by materiality. When I think of materiality I think of something physical.
How can our spirit be made of something physical?

Is part of who we are. Without it we wouldn’t be here and when we receive our new body, that isn’t cursed, we will be a triune being agaion

You mean the new body will be body, soul and spirit and the physical body we have now is only body and soul?
That makes sense to me given what I said below about the spirit of faith. The new body will be whole since it will have the spirit of faith.

Yes… we probably will believe differently. Jesus has a body, it is a spiritual body but it is not his spirit.

That is what I believe. His body is a transformed physical body, not a spirit. It is the same kind of body we will have when we die.

1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. 41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.

42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

I differentiate them because of the scriptures that we adhere by:

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit,

1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 26:9
With my soul I have desired You in the night, Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early; For when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

To the best of my knowledge, and I certainly don’t know everything, our soul is our mind, will and emotions; our spirit is what makes us eternal and it is by which the Holy Spirit joins with us and communicates through our spirit unto our soul.

I believe that the soul is the human spirit, but the word spirit can have more than one meaning, depending upon the context.

I also differentiate spirit from soul. There is the human spirit which is the soul, but there is also the spirit of faith which is eternal and seeks God.
Every human being has a soul, which is connected to our mind and expresses itself as thoughts and emotions, but everyone does not have the spirit of faith. The human spirit (soul), unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities.

“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 208-209

 

[joelr]

So you guys are saying you know better than the men closer to the Apostles, the men who drew up the creeds and wrote the theological texts?

The men who read the Bible in its original languages?

You know better?

What? The original theology is from Paul and then Mark. Matthew and Luke are re-writes.

Jesus was a Greek savior dying/rising savior demigod because Hellenism was trending and being combined with many local religions.

That is the original theology, Persian and Greek, 2nd century was 50% Gnostic. You are talking about 3rd century revision. They were attempting to fit a Greek demigod with a supreme God and this "holy spirit" and it doesn't work.
The Platonic and Aquinas view is God is a single undivided substance. Listening to Catholic theologians try and explain how 3 is 1 is complete nonsense. They are forced to deal with the Greek influence but still want the Persian monotheistic God. The "trinity" is a borrowing from Hinduism, still doesn't work. Because the myths came in pieces as new cultures had influence on Hebrew theology.

The Bible was in Greek, not the original language to the nation and written by a trained writer who sourced several other works and wrote in a fictional style.



Persian religion, Zoroastrianism had ideas Judaism did not have but picked up.

- War of good God vs Evil God/light vs dark/ God vs Satan
- Bad people burn in hell, good people wait in heaven
- A river of fire will flow over the universe burning everything up (even hell itself)
- A new better world created in it’s place
- All good people will be resurrected by God to live in that new world happily ever after


Basic Mystery cult, common features:


- Individuals “initiated” into the mysteries, ritually and by teaching sworn secrets about the universe. Something about the cosmos one needed to be saved, secrets. Many secrets are now lost.
- purpose was to gain salvation in the afterlife
- all use baptism and communion(communal meals)
- fictive kinship “brotherhood”

Trends in Hellenistic religion


- Petra Pakkanen, Interpreting Early Hellenistic Religion (1996)
- Four big trends in religion in the centuries leading up to Christianity
- Christianity conforms to all four



Four Trends

- Syncretism: combining a foreign cult deity with Hellenistic elements. Christianity is a Jewish mystery religion.
- Henotheism: transforming / reinterpreting polytheism into monotheism. Judaism introduced monolatric concepts.
- Individualism: agricultural salvation cults retooled as personal salvation cults. Salvation of community changed into personal individual salvation in afterlife. All original agricultural salvation cults were retooled by the time Christianity arose.
- Cosmopolitianism: all races, cultures, classes admitted as equals, with fictive kinship (members are all brothers) you now “join” a religion rather than being born into it



Savior deities, dying/rising, pre-Christian, Osiris, Adonis, Romulus, Zalmoxis, Inanna (oldest 1700 B.C., female deity resurrected in 3 days)



All Mystery religions have personal savior deities

- All saviors
- all son/daughter, never the supreme God (including Mithriasm)
- all undergo a passion (struggle) patheon
- all obtain victory over death which they share with followers
- all have stories set on earth
- none actually existed
- Is Jesus the exception and based on a real Jewish teacher or is it all made up?



Elusinian Mysteries = Mycenaean + Hellenistic
Bacchic Mysteries = Phoenician + Hellenistic
Mysteries of Attis and Cybele = Phrygian + Hellenistic
Mysteries of Baal = Anatolian + Hellenistic
Mysteries of Mithras = Persian + Hellenistic
Mysteries of Isis and Osiris = Egyptian + Hellenistic
Christian Mysteries = Jewish + Hellenistic


Hellenistic Greek view of cosmology
Material world/body is a prison of the soul
Humans are immortal souls, fallen into the darkness of the lower world
Death sets the soul free
No human history, just a cycle of birth, death, rebirth
Immortality is inherent for all humans
Salvation is escape to Heaven, the true home of the immortal soul
Humans are fallen and misplaced
Death is a stripping of the body so the soul can be free
Death is a liberating friend to be welcomed
Asceticism is the moral idea for the soul

This stuff wasn't a revelation but came in slowly during the Persian occupation and later during the Greek era. By the 3rd century they had to square this with having a supreme one single being, which goes back to Platonic philosophy, which they wanted and later Aquinas used to define their god. Doesn't work. But it's all mythology so it doesn't need to.

Dr James Tabor, Dr Carrier

 

[SLPCCC]

The Trinity is hidden in the Old Testament, and it's revealed in the New. That's why the Jews didn't get it, but the Christians did. It's all over the bible. Yes, Jesus spoke to Abraham, Moses, and the prophets. Not as Jesus but as the Word. When he spoke to Moses, he spoke to Moses as the "I Am". This is what he revealed to the Jews, and that's why they wanted to kill him when he said that. All those who are not Christians don't believe in the Trinity because they have not come to know the Truth. Those who call themselves Christians but don't believe in the Trinity are being misled. True Christians believe in the Trinity because it's all over the New and Old Testament. If you do a scholarly study of the scriptures, you will see it too.

Why so must Trinity bashing? It's simple. Anything that is from God the ruler of this world hates and will attack.

 

[Kenny]

I am still not sure what you mean by materiality. When I think of materiality I think of something physical.
How can our spirit be made of something physical?

IMV, that is the issue… we think the only materiality is only physical. I’m not sure that is true. God is a Spirit yet His presence can be phyicallly felt. I still don’t know about angels though we can’t see them that have a materiality that can appear as physical.

You mean the new body will be body, soul and spirit and the physical body we have now is only body and soul?
That makes sense to me given what I said below about the spirit of faith. The new body will be whole since it will have the spirit of faith.

No, that isn’t what I am saying. Sorry if I am not explaining well. I gave 3 scriptures that specifically mention that there is a difference between the three. Right now we have three parts. The spirit which is “born-again” by the Spirit of God and is perfect. The soul, which has to be renewed by us through God’s Word and our body made up of cursed ground that will die but we will receive a new body.

That is what I believe. His body is a transformed physical body, not a spirit. It is the same kind of body we will have when we die.

1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. 41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.

42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

Yes, I agree with these scriptures. As I understand it, we will have a new body that is a spiritual, uncursed body.

I believe that the soul is the human spirit, but the word spirit can have more than one meaning, depending upon the context.

OK.

We would disagree with this but that’s ok. I would look at it as one heart that has the left side (spirit) and a right side (soul) - separate and yet one.

I also differentiate spirit from soul. There is the human spirit which is the soul, but there is also the spirit of faith which is eternal and seeks God.
Every human being has a soul, which is connected to our mind and expresses itself as thoughts and emotions, but everyone does not have the spirit of faith. The human spirit (soul), unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities.

OK… slightly different on my side.

Faith (or the spirit of faith) is the power of the spirit
The mind is the power of the soul
The muscles are the power of the body.

I would agree that every human being has a soul… but I would say the soul is comprised of mind, will and emotions. I would hold that the Spirit of God talks to our spirit (Spirit to spirit) which then communicates to our mind and then can produce an action by the body

“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing.

I agree… all animals and humans have soul but what distinguished the human being is that it has a spirit… again two different things, but as you said, yet one thing.

This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 208-209

OK… There are many viewpoint, imv, of what a soul is. Some people even don’t think there is a soul and that it is just electrical currents in the brain.

 

[Ebionite]

It's all over the bible.

Except that the early Christians didn't use the Trinitarian baptismal formula and the description of oneness doesn't conform.

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].
John 17:11

 

[Rival]

Except that the early Christians didn't use the Trinitarian baptismal formula and the description of oneness doesn't conform.

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].
John 17:11

Matthew 28L19...

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...

 

[Ebionite]

Matthew 28L19...

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...

Eusebius' accounts of this verse only include the Trinitarian formula after the council of Nicea. Also, 1 John 5:6-8 includes a well-known late addition to support the doctrine.

 

[Rival]

Eusebius' accounts of this verse only include the Trinitarian formula after the council of Nicea. Also, 1 John 5:6-8 includes a well-known late addition to support the doctrine.

Eusebius is notoriously unreliable and the verse is, as far as I know, in all manuscripts of Matthew.

 

[SLPCCC]

Matthew 28L19...

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...

Ebionite, notice that He says, " in the name of the Father (singular, i.e., no /s/ at the end of "the name") indicating the Trinity and not in the names (plural) indicating more than one God.

 

[Ebionite]

Eusebius is notoriously unreliable and the verse is, as far as I know, in all manuscripts of Matthew.

I don't know of any manuscript that shows a late addition in Matthew either.

IMO Eusebius is regarded to be unreliable because his writings cut close to the bone for Christainity re its involvement with the Pharisees and Herodians - the leaven.

Ebionite, notice that He says, " in the name of the Father (singular, i.e., no /s/ at the end of "the name") indicating the Trinity and not in the names (plural) indicating more than one God.

Yes, they had to maintain consistency with the singular use of the gospels, eg "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name."