Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

[Brian2]

Whether I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses or not should not particularly enter into this discussion. So first let me ask you this: do you think his body was destroyed?

Yes it was made into a non functioning body.

 

[YoursTrue]

The point of what Jesus said, (God alone is good) is imo, so that later generations, you and me, could read it and realise that because Jesus is exactly like God and was completely sinless, then Jesus was actually making a veiled revelation to us, that He was God.

I'd like to say this (per what Jesus said):
(John chapter 8 ESV)
"So he said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come.” 22So the Jews said, “Will he kill himself, since he says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” 23He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.” 25So they said to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning. 26I have much to say about you and much to judge, but he who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from him.” 27They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father. 28So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. 29And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him.” 30As he was saying these things, many believed in him."

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes it was made into a non functioning body.

Oh, you say...a non-functioning body? It was destroyed.

 

[YoursTrue]

Does anyone have any suggestions of how I can show kindness in my comments?

You're doin' fine.

 

[walt]

You're doin' fine.

Thank You, but I want to improve if I can?

 

[YoursTrue]

Where does Jesus say that He is not good?

He gave all credit and what he learned to his Father, not himself. Satan the devil took his stand in opposition to God. Jesus did not. Because he loved the Father.

 

[Brian2]

"exactly LIKE God"? Either he was God or he was not. And it really all depends upon what you think God, or a god is.

Jesus is exactly like the God. He is not the God but is exactly like the God. The OT says nobody is comparable to God and the NT says Jesus is comparable to God and is exactly like God.
If the trinity is true then the languaged used in the Bible (words used to describe Jesus for example without making Him into the Father) was always going to be tricky even for God, because He is explaining stuff to us of low IQ.
So the language is tricky and we can be tricked by it, and once that happens we start justifying other things in the Bible in our head so that they mean something else.
Eg. we might start saying that Jesus was created even though the Bible tells us that ALL THINGS were created through Him, meaning He was not one of those created things. We might even justify adding words to places where it says that (eg "other" as in "other things") and tell ourselves that is OK and it does not change the meaning.
Or we might start saying that "firstborn" means only "first one born" in the Bible, when that is demonstrably not the case.
We might even say that there are other true gods apart from the one true God, and still say that what you believe is monotheism.

 

[Brian2]

He gave all credit and what he learned to his Father, not himself. Satan the devil took his stand in opposition to God. Jesus did not. Because he loved the Father.

Do you say that Jesus is not good or is not exactly like God His Father?

 

[YoursTrue]

Luke 18:18 And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.

Where does this passage say that Jesus is not God?

Is Jesus exactly like His Father or not? Yes.
Is Jesus therefore good, like His Father is good? Yes.
Is Jesus therefore God, like His Father is God? Yes.

Jesus was humble, right? Since he learned everything from the Father, he could rightly refuse the assignment of being said to be a "good teacher" in the sense of not taking credit for his goodness, or education. Because he knew he learned everything from his heavenly Father.

 

[YoursTrue]

Jesus is exactly like the God. He is not the God but is exactly like the God. The OT says nobody is comparable to God and the NT says Jesus is comparable to God and is exactly like God.
If the trinity is true then the languaged used in the Bible (words used to describe Jesus for example without making Him into the Father) was always going to be tricky even for God, because He is explaining stuff to us of low IQ.
So the language is tricky and we can be tricked by it, and once that happens we start justifying other things in the Bible in our head so that they mean something else.
Eg. we might start saying that Jesus was created even though the Bible tells us that ALL THINGS were created through Him, meaning He was not one of those created things. We might even justify adding words to places where it says that (eg "other" as in "other things") and tell ourselves that is OK and it does not change the meaning.
Or we might start saying that "firstborn" means only "first one born" in the Bible, when that is demonstrably not the case.
We might even say that there are other true gods apart from the one true God, and still say that what you believe is monotheism.

ok. Well now I am thinking to go into translations with you if possible. Hopefully we can do this tomorrow, since it is getting late, so I bid you good night now and hope to continue the discussion asap.

 

[YoursTrue]

Do you say that Jesus is not good or is not exactly like God His Father?

I am saying what Jesus said. He learned everything from his heavenly father. He said the father is greater than he is. I'm sure you remember that scripture. So if a person is humble and learned much from a teacher and someone complements him, he wouldn't necessarily say, nah...my work is no good. But he might say, Really I learned everything I know from my teacher. Does that mean that his work was not good? No, of course not, but he knew he learned from his teacher and respected and praised him.
(Good night.)

 

[Brian2]

Oh, you say...a non-functioning body? It was destroyed.

Jesus used parables to hide the truth from people. He said, if you destroy this temple, instead of saying, if you kill this body.
Oh, you say that Jesus disciples were a temple at that stage when they did not?
The disciples actually knew what Jesus meant and in the passage they tell us that He was speaking about the resurrection of His body after 3 days.
You know,,,,,,,,,,, the thing that was a temple at the time that Jesus spoke those words. The things that Jesus raised up after 3 days.
The idea that Jesus disciples would become a temple probably did not form in the disciples until years later, but when Jesus rose, they would have known, as John tells us, that Jesus was speaking about the resurrection of His body after 3 days.
You know,,,,,,,,,,, the only sign that Jesus was going to give, the sign of Jonah, the resurrection of His body.

Matt 12:38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying, “Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you.” 39 But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

John 2:18 So the Jews said to him, “What sign do you show us for doing these things?” 19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

So you are saying that Jesus gave an additional sign, the reforming of his disciples into a Temple (which they were not in the first place). This would not have even been a sign for the Pharisees, only for the disciples,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but of course they would not have even been thinking about such things, they were hiding and wondering if Jesus would rise from the dead,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and they were hiding together and praying, they were still a solid group.

 

[Brian2]

I'd like to say this (per what Jesus said):
(John chapter 8 ESV)
"So he said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come.” 22So the Jews said, “Will he kill himself, since he says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” 23He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.” 25So they said to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning. 26I have much to say about you and much to judge, but he who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from him.” 27They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father. 28So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. 29And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him.” 30As he was saying these things, many believed in him."

You speak as if you think I believe Jesus is the Father and that Jesus would not be submitting to His Father after His resurrection.
But the Father is the Father and the Son is the Son and the Son, esp when He is also a man, submits to His Father, His God.
Yes the Father is the God of the Son in the Bible and I believe that. He became Jesus God when Jesus became a man, as Psalm 22:10 tells us.

 

[Brian2]

I am saying what Jesus said. He learned everything from his heavenly father. He said the father is greater than he is. I'm sure you remember that scripture. So if a person is humble and learned much from a teacher and someone complements him, he wouldn't necessarily say, nah...my work is no good. But he might say, Really I learned everything I know from my teacher. Does that mean that his work was not good? No, of course not, but he knew he learned from his teacher and respected and praised him.
(Good night.)

I suppose that Jesus life and nature comes from His Father, but Jesus is still exactly like His Father, as good as His Father, and has been such from eternity,,,,,,,,,,,,,, from eternity because Jesus was not created.

"greater" has nothing to do with the nature of Jesus or His Father. It speaks of the position of the 2 in relation to each other. The president of the US is greater than I am but both of us are equal in nature.

John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel.

The above passage has nothing to do with the Father teaching the Son things, it shows the authority of the Son in relation to the Father. The Son can't do anything without the authority of His Father.
The Son can do anything that the Father does but does not take it on Himself to be the boss, He waits on the Father. He did not take what belonged to Him, equality with God, but was obedient and waited and God exalted Him (Phil 2) and now the Son is seated on the throne and the Father serves the Son by putting all His enemies under His feet.
But that situation does not last, as the Son is the Son and so submits in the end to His Father, and the Son also is a man and His God is His Father and so the Father has to take the reigns into eternity, just as it was in eternity past. The Kingdom is handed back to God.

 

[Brian2]

You mean God can divide [him]self into two distinct entities? In that case how can there be only one God? There could be a mouse plague of the durners!

God does not divide Himself, God just is what He is.
What's a durner?

So if they're three persons, each has a distinct will, therefore there are three gods.

OR if they have only one will, then they're just different faces, different masks, of the one entity.

Which is it?

I would say neither.

That's not what the NT says. In the NT Mark's Jesus is God's adopted son, just as David was God's adopted son. In Matthew and Luke Jesus is God's genetic son and has God's Y-chromosome (since clearly those Jesuses didn't get theirs from their mother). The Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John pre-existed in heaven with God (who made them there as [he] had made the angels &c). All five versions of Jesus expressly deny that they're God and never claim to be God.

It follows that if Jesus was in fact God his entire ministry was a con.

The gospels and Paul give Jesus from differing perspectives, but none of the perspectives disagree with the others.

No, that's only said to be true of the Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John. No such claim is made for any of the synoptic Jesuses. It certainly can't be true of Mark's Jesus, who's simply a young Jewish male until God adopts him as God had adopted David ((Psalm 2:7).

Yes if you divide the New Testament up and expect each part to say all the things that the other parts do then you can end up with 5 different versions of Jesus.
But the whole approach is just another way to discredit the unity of the Bible as the Word of God and attack the validity of Jesus as presented there. It never ceases to amaze me how many ways have been devised to try to do this.

Where does any NT version of Jesus say that?

Phil 2, Heb 1

 

[blü 2]

What's a durner?

A miscellaneous thing, as in eg "some danged thing".

I would say neither.

So God doesn't have one will, you say? Then how many wills does God have?

The question goes to the heart of the issue, I think.

The gospels and Paul give Jesus from differing perspectives, but none of the perspectives disagree with the others.

Not so. As I keep mentioning, there are five Jesuses in the NT with three main models, namely Mark's adopted ordinary human on the model of David, Matthew's and Luke's absurd virgin story, and Paul's and John's Jesus who pre-existed in heaven with God and created the material universe, unlike the other three.

Yes if you divide the New Testament up and expect each part to say all the things that the other parts do then you can end up with 5 different versions of Jesus.
But the whole approach is just another way to discredit the unity of the Bible as the Word of God and attack the validity of Jesus as presented there. It never ceases to amaze me how many ways have been devised to try to do this.

If pointing out what the NT actually says is, as you say, "just another way to discredit the unity of the Bible as the Word of God" then the word of God is something not found in the bible.

Instead it appears to be a quality wished on it by particular readers for their subjective reasons ─ if that's wrong, please correct me and explain the actual situation.

and both the prehuman and human Son is still the Son of God, equal in nature to His Father.

Where does any NT version of Jesus say that?

Phil 2, Heb 1

Which words of it do you say asserts that Jesus is equal in nature to God?

Hebrews 1? What words are you pointing to there, exactly?

They both say God's in charge, not Jesus, as far as I can make them out.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Presumably a Christian creed is the thoughtful consensus of the core beliefs transmitted by the NT.

But they were there in societies even before Christianity came up.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

you also follow an organization.

So did the first-century Christians.
Acts 2:42. They were very organized, as the Greek Scriptures reveal. They had to be, to follow Christ’s command @ Matthew 28:19,20.

How could the counsel about unity at 1 Corinthians 1:10 be applied, without organization?

You guys are worshiping Jesus now?

Why did you quote-mine me?

I said….

Who did Paul worship?
1 Corinthians 8:5,6,”….just as there are many gods and many lords….”

Who did Jesus worship?
John 4:23-24; John 20:17.

As followers of Jesus, it’s who Jehovah’s Witnesses worship. That is Monotheism.

Really, who did Jesus worship?

 

[Soapy]

We know that Jesus is perfectly good so why would he say this? Some use this as an argument that he is not God. But this is not a good argument because there could be many reasons why Jesus responds this way. Jesus may be hiding his identity. and wants the man (and us) to think. "Why do you call Me good? Are you calling Me God? If you are, are you prepared to listen to me?" If Jesus is sinless, then he must be perfectly good like God.

God = Perfectly Good = Jesus.

First off… The man in no way was thinking if Jesus as ‘God’. Jews worship the SPIRIT PERSON, the Deity, whom they regard (indeed are COMMANDED) to view as their ONLY GOD. To worship a human Being they took absolutely as BLASPHEMY.

Next… He was asking an INNOCENT question BUT which Jesus knew could (and would) be taken as SELF-GLORIFICATION.

So Jesus ‘shot him down…’ for calling him ‘GOOD’. Can you imagine that there were many teachers of the scriptures and the law who DID NOT teach correctly. The man saw that Jesus presented his teachings CORRECTLY and so the man called him ‘GOOD’ as a means of distinction.

But here is the silly argument view … Is the word, ‘Good’, only pertaining to Almighty God?

Of course not!!!!!!!!

There is CONTEXT attached to the mass majority of words used in human language. Here is an anecdote:

• A boy was doing trick cycling and his friend said, ‘Wow, you’re good’. The boy spun around on the bike and retorted, “I’m not ‘good’, the person who taught me to do these tricks on a bike, HE IS GOOD!!!”

Do you get it???

Jesus DID NOT KNOW the day of his return… Only GOD knew the day and hour - which the Father has set in His own time.

Jesus ALWAYS SECRETLY prayed for the use of the Spirit if God before performing a miracle (If he was God he wouldn’t have to ask to use what is his, would he?)

Jesus to several goes to heal two men of blindness (so one set of verses say!) - How is that ‘GOOD’? God would heal in one go!!!

Jesus had no say in whom would sit in his left and on his right in Heaven… Only GOD knows that… (though Jesus would JUDGE who was worthy to attain a seat with him - just not where!!!)

Jesus faltered on the night before his crucifixion… He begged God if there could be ‘another way’… but then recovered himself saying, ‘but not MY WILL but YOURS be done’. God does not falter at all ever!!!

I’m writing these thing, not to denigrate Jesus, but to show things IN CONTEXT.

Trinitarians will claim that Jesus had faults because it was his HUMAN SIDE that did so… His GOD side never stumbled. Can you see the spin-doctoring that they do??

If God is in Jesus - if GOD IS JESUS then how can Jesus stumble or not know??? Does Jesus SWITCH ON and SWITCH OFF being GOD???!!

 

[Soapy]

I agree with you here.

An alternative word the translators could have used instead is ‘MIGHTY HERO’.

Hero’s are mighty ones… so MIGHTY MIGHTY ONES. But yet even might might heroes DIE…!!!

Almighty HERO GOD never dies - Almighty Hero God (YHWH, the Father) is Spirit, and Spirit cannot DIE.