Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

[Soapy]

John 17:3 in prayer to his Father Jesus says: This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. And Jesus says at John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. NIV And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. KJB --Lk. 9:35

- Jesus praying to his father says you, the only true God. --Jn. 17:3
- Jesus says, For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son. --Jn. 3:16
- a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: --Lk. 9:35
Do we put faith in Jesus and his Father's words and allow them to adjust our thinking?
* Jesus and his Father explain what they want us to believe, do they ever explain Jesus is not really God's son? No!

Notice Jesus gives all the credit to his Father and calls him the only true God and what does Jesus say about himself [ and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ ]. Does Jesus call himself God? No! It seems Jesus is more concerned that we know who is the only true God and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ, Jesus explains the way he wants us to think and believe.

I try my very best to think and believe this way: I just quote the way Jesus explains it and that's my way of thinking, granted it does not disagree with everything else Jesus says, The Father says, the Angels and the Apostle's say and Jesus words becomes my concrete foundation.

Admirable and noble esteem.

But yet your avatar title says you believe that Jesus is ‘Mighty God’ (without definition)… A Chess Grandmaster is a ‘Mighty God’ in the world of Chess playing…

 

[Hockeycowboy]

JWs believe that there is a god who created things (Jesus)…

This is not accurate. Only Jehovah was / is the Creator. Jesus came to be “beside Him as a Master workman”
—Proverbs 8:29,30
Before that, he was “the beginning of the creation by God.”
(Revelation 3:12) The very first.

 

[Soapy]

• Brian2 wrote: For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.

Brian2, if Jesus came from Heaven to do NOT HIS OWN WILL but the Will of the Father…. this means TWO WILLS, one for each, God and Jesus, BUT Jesus chooses to ABJURE his own Will and accept that of the Father.

• Brian2 wrote: “How can anyone be sent "from" God when God is everywhere?”

Oh P-l-e-a-s-e, Brian2… IF God is everywhere (in the way you are saying) then why would Jesus (whom you say IS GOD) ‘COME FROM’ or be SENT FROM’ the ‘abode’ of God to somewhere where he ALREADY IS????

Brian2, please don’t struggle to make up nonsense… (oh, you don’t…??? I see what you mean!!!) If you can’t answer honestly then I accept you not answering AT ALL (invoke the Fifth Amendment!!) but you present yourself as naive and immature when you write stuff like you just did!!

• Brian2 wrote: Jesus was not sent away from God, Jesus is in God and God is in Jesus

Brian2, no one ever said that Jesus was ‘sent away’ from God… You made that up and then denied it - typical politicians methods for original questions he can’t answer.

• Brian2 wrote: So you deny the Bible because you have beliefs that are better than what the Bible tells us.

Brian2, I believe the truth. Where the truth has been mistranslated or altered for the sake of attempting to justify a fallacious trinity ideology, THAT doctrine I deny.

• Brian2 wrote: Because the One God is 3 persons. The 3 worked as one God because that is what they are.

Your belief that ONE GOD is THREE PERSONS but GOD is also ONE PERSON doesn’t work.

• Brian2 wrote: That is correct. In the Father is the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Brian2, please show me a verse or claim that says that the ‘holy spirit’ is IN THE FATHER…

• Brian2 wrote: The Father created all things and gives life through the Son and the Spirit.

Brian2, are you now saying that it WASN’T Jesus who created all things and gives all things life… but rather the Father … You seem so confused about what you do believe…

How and where is it written that the Father gives life through the Son…?

Is it not that it is by BELIEF IN the THE FATHER and IN the Son (not THROUGH) that BELIEVERS can attain [Eternal] LIFE:

• ‘[Father], … Eternal life depends on them believing in you as the only true God…. and believing that you sent me, Jesus Christ

Believers MUST believe in him who GOD SENT. It is contingent that the emissary is believed that he was sent by God else how it believed what the emissary says? So, we must believe in the message from Jesus CONCERNING GOD who sent him.

• Brian2 wrote: No that does not sound like the Father is Jesus and you should know by now, after being told 1001 times, that the Father is not Jesus in the Bible and in Trinitarian teaching.

You keep saying that you told me 1001 times that the Father is not Jesus in the Bible and in trinitarian teaching YET THAT is exactly what you wrote every time you present your diatribe.
The Father IS GOD… so if you say that Jesus IS GOD then you are absolutely saying that Jesus is the Father and the Father is Jesus, which you back up with:

• ‘I and the Father are one’, and,
• ‘If you see me then you also see the Father’

Moreover, ‘I and the Father’ does not make a cohesive, immutable, immortal, TRINITY… Guess what ‘Trinity’ means, Brian2?

Wow, Brian2, your presentation does nothing to further the cause of your belief. Nothing is more simpler that:

• ‘I am YHWH who created all things BY MYSELF’

Three people creating a system is not ‘BY MYSELF’.. ‘I, alone’, ‘The only true God’.

 

[Brian2]

Brian2, I’m not sure you understand what you believe.

Let me ask you: Are you believing in the trinity which claims that there are three persons who are the one true God of the Israelites, He who alone, by Himself, indivisible snd immutable, created all things and who alone must be worshipped by mankind?

Why don't you think that I understand what I believe?

 

[Brian2]

• Brian2 wrote: For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.

Brian2, if Jesus came from Heaven to do NOT HIS OWN WILL but the Will of the Father…. this means TWO WILLS, one for each, God and Jesus, BUT Jesus chooses to ABJURE his own Will and accept that of the Father.

3 persons, 3 wills, and the Son's will is to always submits to the will of His Father.

Brian2 wrote: “How can anyone be sent "from" God when God is everywhere?”
Oh P-l-e-a-s-e, Brian2… IF God is everywhere (in the way you are saying) then why would Jesus (whom you say IS GOD) ‘COME FROM’ or be SENT FROM’ the ‘abode’ of God to somewhere where he ALREADY IS????

All messengers from God are sent from where God is to give a message in another place where God is.

• Brian2 wrote: So you deny the Bible because you have beliefs that are better than what the Bible tells us.

Brian2, I believe the truth. Where the truth has been mistranslated or altered for the sake of attempting to justify a fallacious trinity ideology, THAT doctrine I deny.

We know the truth through what is in the Bible. You are saying that where the Bible contradicts your beliefs then you say that the Bible has been mistranslated or changed.

• Brian2 wrote: Because the One God is 3 persons. The 3 worked as one God because that is what they are.

Your belief that ONE GOD is THREE PERSONS but GOD is also ONE PERSON doesn’t work.

What you claim that I believe is not what I believe. God is not 3 persons and also one person.

• Brian2 wrote: That is correct. In the Father is the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Brian2, please show me a verse or claim that says that the ‘holy spirit’ is IN THE FATHER…

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. Since when has the Spirit of God not been in God?

• Brian2 wrote: The Father created all things and gives life through the Son and the Spirit.

Brian2, are you now saying that it WASN’T Jesus who created all things and gives all things life… but rather the Father … You seem so confused about what you do believe…

How and where is it written that the Father gives life through the Son…?

Jesus raises people to life. So the Father is giving life through the Son.

• Brian2 wrote: No that does not sound like the Father is Jesus and you should know by now, after being told 1001 times, that the Father is not Jesus in the Bible and in Trinitarian teaching.

You keep saying that you told me 1001 times that the Father is not Jesus in the Bible and in trinitarian teaching YET THAT is exactly what you wrote every time you present your diatribe.
The Father IS GOD… so if you say that Jesus IS GOD then you are absolutely saying that Jesus is the Father and the Father is Jesus, which you back up with:

• ‘I and the Father are one’, and,
• ‘If you see me then you also see the Father’

Do you believe what Jesus said at John 14:8-9? If you do, does that mean that you believe that Jesus is the Father?
If not, that means that you are just speaking jibberish about the Trinity.
(John 14:8-9) Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” Jesus answered: “Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.

 

[SLPCCC]

• This is not accurate. Only Jehovah was / is the Creator. Jesus came to be “beside Him as a Master workman”

—Proverbs 8:29,30

You are ignoring this scripture.

• Col 1:16, 17 - For by him [Jesus] all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Jesus came to be “beside Him as a Master workman”
—Proverbs 8:29,30

Proverbs 8 is not talking about Jesus. Is Jesus a woman?

• 1. Does not wisdom call out, and understanding raise her voice? 2. On the heights overlooking the road, at the crossroads she takes her stand. 3. Beside the gates to the city, at the entrances she cries out: . . . 12. I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence, and I find knowledge and discretion. . . 22. The LORD created me as His first course, before His works of old. . . 29. when He set a boundary for the sea, so that the waters would not surpass His command, when He marked out the foundations of the earth. 30. Then I was a skilled craftsman at His side, and His delightd day by day, rejoicing always in His presence.

Jesus is not the woman, wisdom. The reality is that the speaker is wisdom personified.

Before that, he was “the beginning of the creation by God.”
(Revelation 3:12) The very first.

God is also the First

• “I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God” (Isaiah 44:6).
• “I am he; I am the first, I also am the last” (Isaiah 48:12).

 

[walt]

Admirable and noble esteem.

But yet your avatar title says you believe that Jesus is ‘Mighty God’ (without definition)… A Chess Grandmaster is a ‘Mighty God’ in the world of Chess playing…

Jesus is "Mighty God" in every good way I could possibly imagine, for all he did for us when he was on Earth, Jesus does not hesitate in doing his Father's will, and for what he continues to do in the heaven, he is a magnificent and Mighty King!

 

[SLPCCC]

Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. NIV

We know that Jesus is perfectly good so why would he say this? Some use this as an argument that he is not God. But this is not a good argument because there could be many reasons why Jesus responds this way. Jesus may be hiding his identity. and wants the man (and us) to think. "Why do you call Me good? Are you calling Me God? If you are, are you prepared to listen to me?" If Jesus is sinless, then he must be perfectly good like God.

God = Perfectly Good = Jesus.

 

[walt]

We know that Jesus is perfectly good. So this is not a good argument for proving that Jesus is not God because there could be many other reasons why Jesus responds this way. Maybe Jesus may be hiding his identity. and wants the man (and us) to think. "Why do you call Me good? Are you calling Me God? If you are, are you prepared to listen to me?" If Jesus is sinless, then he must be perfectly good like God. God = Perfectly Good = Jesus.

Jesus is everything you say and much more!! And at the same time gives his Father all the credit saying his Father is the only true God! My point I was trying to make was Jesus is in every way possible good but Jesus directs goodness to be applied to the source of goodness his Father.

I was drawing a parallel Jesus is to be called "Mighty God", Moses is called a god by the Almighty God, in Greek [ theos ] this word
[ theos ] is used in reference to the Almighty God, Jesus, Angels, Judges, Moses, Paul and Barnabas, the Bible even says [ the god ] of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers.. Jesus and his Father do not teach Jesus is "The Almighty" "The Most High" or "The Highest" to be called
[ theos = God ] is no different than when The Almighty calls Moses [ theos ]. false gods are called [ theos ] too.

Why would Jesus, his Father, Angels, friends, followers, strangers, enemies, Apostles all say the same thing, Jesus is the son of the living God and his father Is the only true God, Why would they even say all that if they wanted us to get a totally different meaning? Why would they go through all that? What If I use Jesus words and his Father's words and let them do all the talking.. John 3:16, 17:3, Luke 9:35, Matthew 17:5

Jesus is the one that gives all the credit to his Father! And I try to think as close as I can to "Jesus thinking" not my own!

 

[Muffled]

And the principle. A trinity being.

I believe He is not a trinity being.

 

[Muffled]

Who is this talking about?

• Col 1: 16-17 states, "for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; 17 and he is before all things, and in him, all things consist."

Do you know that God calls Jesus God?

• Psalm 45: 6 "Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. Your royal scepter is a scepter of equity;
• Hebrews 1:8: . . . "But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Technically God is not the Father until Jesus is conceived. However The definition of the Spirit of God outside the body fits in both cases.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

JWs believe that there is a god who created things (Jesus) (1) and God/Father who created things (1). That equals to 2 gods/Gods. That's polytheism. You don't have to worship both. You just need to believe in that concept to be polytheistic.

Oh really? Please address the Scriptures I posted.
Reread 1 Corinthians 8:5,6.
So Paul was a polytheist? No. He worshipped Yahweh, as Jesus did.

I’d rather not break the 1st commandment. Exodus 20:2-6.

Regarding the recognition that spirit creatures are gods… I again refer to Paul at 2 Corinthians 4:4

That passage, btw, also calls Christ, not God , but “the image of God.”
If you want to worship an image, that’s your call.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Jesus is good…

Actually, what did Jesus himself say about that?
Luke 18:18,19

(I think you knew that.)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Ah, yes, but you need to careful of what if is claimed that Jesus said. For instance, Jesus DID NOT SAY that he:

• ‘Came from Heaven’ (the abode of God and Spirits)

He said, GOD SENT ME… which, by translations and modification, is:

• ‘I came FROM GOD’ (‘He sent me’)

which then gets further deliberately mistranslated to:

• ‘I came from Heaven’ (‘The Heavenly one’)
  • ‘I came from God…’
    • ‘I came from Him who sent me’

How can he be sent from God if he IS GOD???
Did he send himself? Even trinity will say, ‘No, he did not send himself… the Father sent him!’.

So there is your proof that it is a false claim that Jesus ‘came from the abode of Spirits: Heaven’.

Moreover, Jesus was SENT at the point after he was baptised with the Spirit of God, and passed the test in the wilderness. A doctor is SENT into the world of surgery or as a G.P. when he passes his examination and takes the Hippocratic oath. A drive is sent into the world of driving themself when they pass their driving test.

Jesus stated the prophecy that declared his being sent when he got up and read from the scriptures in the synagogue about a week after being rented in the wilderness:

• ‘The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,…. He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” (Luke 4:21)

Note that before this day, before the declaration, before the anointing and testing (and why was he tested????) Jesus had never performed a miracle nor done any action - in fact he was just seen as ‘The son of Joseph, the Carpenter’.

So, when searching for the truth in scriptures, look out for FALSE VERSES where Trinitarians have changed them to ATTEMPT TO MAKE THEM FIT the trinity model.
-—————-—————

Just adding this:
Who created the world and all things within??
If it’s Jesus as trinity says, then Jesus created it ALL BY MYSELF…

• ‘I AM YHWH who alone created all things…’

Who is YHWH?

How can GOD have created all things by himself if he is THREE PERSONS?

But ONLY ONE of the three persons CREATED BY HIMSELF …

But GOD is not divisible… !!!!

And the term, FATHER, means:

• ‘He who creates’
• ‘He who brings into being’
• ‘He who gives life’

Just that sound like the Father is Jesus?

Think about that.

But Jesus did come from Heaven. That in no way makes him , God!

In his prayer to his Father, his God, at John 17:5….”So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”

That doesn’t make him God. But don’t have to deny it either, by making some excuse.

At John 8:58, Jesus did say, “Before Abraham existed, I existed.” That’s why the Jews wanted to stone him — because he just said that he was over 1800 years old!

Through Jehovah’s power (His Holy Spirit), He put the life of His firstborn son into the womb of Mary, to be born a human. A perfect human. Luke 1:28-35

Have a good day, my cousin.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

You are ignoring this scripture.

• Col 1:16, 17 - For by him [Jesus] all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

No, I’m not ignoring anything. (You should read verse 15… “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation” which I think you are ignoring.) Look at the context…
It is “by” Jesus, or “through” Jesus, that everything was created. He was the “skilled craftsman” of Proverbs 8…..

Proverbs 8 is not talking about Jesus. Is Jesus a woman?

• 1. Does not wisdom call out, and understanding raise her voice? 2. On the heights overlooking the road, at the crossroads she takes her stand. 3. Beside the gates to the city, at the entrances she cries out: . . .

I have a boat, and “she’s got some nice lines”….

Am I talking about a woman?

How does wisdom “rejoice”, or be “happy”, or be “fond” of anything?

How is Jesus “the Word” of God, then? Isn’t the Word of God, always wisdom?

 

[SLPCCC]

Jesus is everything you say and much more!! And at the same time gives his Father all the credit saying his Father is the only true God! My point I was trying to make was Jesus is in every way possible good but Jesus directs goodness to be applied to the source of goodness his Father.

I agree with you.

 

[SLPCCC]

• No, I’m not ignoring anything. (You should read verse 15… “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation” which I think you are ignoring.)

This is not accurate. Only Jehovah was / is the Creator. Jesus came to be “beside Him as a Master workman”
—Proverbs 8:29,30
Before that, he was “the beginning of the creation by God.”
(Revelation 3:12) The very first.

Look above you said only Jehovah was the creator. Never mind, Firstborn, we can get to that that later. You believe that Jesus creates as it says in Cor 1:16, 17. You believe he is a god. a "Master workman! You are polytheistic! Two gods/Gods that create!

• But Col 1:16,17 says "For by him [Jesus] all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. "

You also said the following:

As followers of Jesus, it’s who Jehovah’s Witnesses worship. That is Monotheism.

So, you worship Jesus?

 

[SLPCCC]

1. Does not wisdom call out, and understanding raise her voice? 2. On the heights overlooking the road, at the crossroads she takes her stand. 3. Beside the gates to the city, at the entrances she cries out: . . .

I have a boat, and “she’s got some nice lines”….

Am I talking about a woman?

How does wisdom “rejoice”, or be “happy”, or be “fond” of anything?

How is Jesus “the Word” of God, then? Isn’t the Word of God, always wisdom?

Yes, Jesus has wisdom but where does it say that this is Jesus?? And if Jesus is wisdom who is prudence?? The author is just personifying wisdom and prudence. Personification is one of the many literary devices writers and poets use to make their writing more engaging. Like:

The city that never sleeps.
Howling wind
Actions speak louder than words.

City, wind, and action are personified to make it more interesting.

 

[Soapy]

Why don't you think that I understand what I believe?

Aha!!!! Gotcha!!!

I did say that if you can’t give a truthful answer then you should avoid a response to the question - and I’m glad you took my advice. Congrats.

 

[Soapy]

3 persons, 3 wills, and the Son's will is to always submits to the will of His Father.



All messengers from God are sent from where God is to give a message in another place where God is.



We know the truth through what is in the Bible. You are saying that where the Bible contradicts your beliefs then you say that the Bible has been mistranslated or changed.



What you claim that I believe is not what I believe. God is not 3 persons and also one person.



The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. Since when has the Spirit of God not been in God?



Jesus raises people to life. So the Father is giving life through the Son.



Do you believe what Jesus said at John 14:8-9? If you do, does that mean that you believe that Jesus is the Father?
If not, that means that you are just speaking jibberish about the Trinity.
(John 14:8-9) Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” Jesus answered: “Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.

Brian2, I know that you know that what you answered was just kneejerking. You know full well that nothing you wrote was sincere to the truth… YOU may desire to believe it but you know deep down that it’s not true.

You may think you ‘got away’ with deceitful responses but let if bd known to you that God sees all you write and why you write it.

Brian2, it’s tons you set your mind right and seek the ONE TRUE GOD, the Father. The only true Son, Jesus Christ, DIED to save you from eternal sin and destruction brought by Adam - it’s time you accepted the good news about the Father, YHWH, and be saved from your own eternal sin and destruction of your spirit.