walt
Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
I agree with you about listening, very good point. Thank You
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Why So Much Trinity Bashing?
- Thread starter Rival
- Start date
walt
Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
Yes I agree with you, any scripture could be correct or incorrect, because if you look at 100 Bibles, Some Bibles Use one word and then another will use a word with the opposite meaning. So I use everything Jesus says to help me, his words seem to not change from bible to bible.
Thank You.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
"What does the essence of something mean?
1. : the basic nature of a thing : the quality or qualities that make a thing what it is. the essence of love is unselfishness. 2. : a substance physically or chemically separated from another substance (as a plant or drug) and having the special qualities (as odor) of the original substance."
I can see where #1 is definitely unknowable, but #2 has the definition "the special qualities of the original substance." a.k.a. soul
Some do, but I know it's very rare as with Judaism and Christianity.
Ahh, but in my belief that's part of the growth. Think of how Jesus spoke of not being anxious, not to worry about food or clothes, etc.
But the "gate" is narrow, so it takes time and effort to get that skinny. LOL
Besides, how else can one pay the price on the harm they've caused "justly" in a mere 72 +- years, or so?
And I believe in eternity so if a life is cut short, it will begin again, with a brand new future. And as each incarnate grows closer to God, then they'll have less "hell to pay" with each life.
Think of the hope and promise in that!
Same as I believe, only that spiritual world (Heaven) is here, on the world, in another plain, perhaps, but here -- world without end, Amen.
Not any difference really, except how and where the spiritual world exists. Jesus arose in his Spiritual body that wasn't recognized by some, but were by others, and he walked among material bodies, touchable, and appeared without going through doors.....mystery, uh?
I'm still interested in how this continued progress happens in reference to judgement and eternity.
"Ashes to ashes, dust to dust..."
The same for an animals body -- decay to enrich earth soil to be returned to life in another configuration. Their personality, the same as man's -- energy return to the universe to be life in another configuration. Do they have a soul? Don't know, but if they do it will return to God and be judged on their scale of justice. They'll be back in God's hands, so to speak.
Who did Paul worship?
1 Corinthians 8:5,6,”….just as there are many gods and many lords….”
Who did Jesus worship?
John 4:23-24; John 20:17.
As followers of Jesus, it’s who Jehovah’s Witnesses worship. That is Monotheism.
Trinitarianism is polytheism. Indeed, all trinities.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Ah, yes, but you need to careful of what if is claimed that Jesus said. For instance, Jesus DID NOT SAY that he:Yes I agree with you, any scripture could be correct or incorrect, because if you look at 100 Bibles, Some Bibles Use one word and then another will use a word with the opposite meaning. So I use everything Jesus says to help me, his words seem to not change from bible to bible.
- ‘Came from Heaven’ (the abode of God and Spirits)
- ‘I came FROM GOD’ (‘He sent me’)
- ‘I came from Heaven’ (‘The Heavenly one’)
- ‘I came from God…’
- ‘I came from Him who sent me’
- ‘I came from God…’
Did he send himself? Even trinity will say, ‘No, he did not send himself… the Father sent him!’.
So there is your proof that it is a false claim that Jesus ‘came from the abode of Spirits: Heaven’.
Moreover, Jesus was SENT at the point after he was baptised with the Spirit of God, and passed the test in the wilderness. A doctor is SENT into the world of surgery or as a G.P. when he passes his examination and takes the Hippocratic oath. A drive is sent into the world of driving themself when they pass their driving test.
Jesus stated the prophecy that declared his being sent when he got up and read from the scriptures in the synagogue about a week after being rented in the wilderness:
- ‘The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,…. He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” (Luke 4:21)
So, when searching for the truth in scriptures, look out for FALSE VERSES where Trinitarians have changed them to ATTEMPT TO MAKE THEM FIT the trinity model.
-—————-—————
Just adding this:
Who created the world and all things within??
If it’s Jesus as trinity says, then Jesus created it ALL BY MYSELF…
- ‘I AM YHWH who alone created all things…’
How can GOD have created all things by himself if he is THREE PERSONS?
But ONLY ONE of the three persons CREATED BY HIMSELF …
But GOD is not divisible… !!!!
And the term, FATHER, means:
- ‘He who creates’
- ‘He who brings into being’
- ‘He who gives life’
Think about that.
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Brian2
Veteran Member
Yes Jesus said that He came from heaven.
John 6:37Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.
How can anyone be sent "from" God when God is everywhere?
Jesus was not sent away from God, Jesus is in God and God is in Jesus.
John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works. 11Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me—or at least believe on account of the works themselves.…
So you deny the Bible because you have beliefs that are better than what the Bible tells us.
Because the One God is 3 persons.
The 3 worked as one God because that is what they are.
That is correct. In the Father is the Son and the Holy Spirit.
The Father created all things and gives life through the Son and the Spirit.
No that does not sound like the Father is Jesus and you should know by now, after being told 1001 times, that the Father is not Jesus in the Bible and in Trinitarian teaching.
Brian2
Veteran Member
In ancient times and even now in various cultures there are many gods and lords who are all worshipped.
For Christians there is one true God, the Father of Jesus who is in His Father, just as the Father is in Jesus.
When I worship the Father I am worshipping Jesus in the Father.
When I worship Jesus, I am worshipping the Father in Jesus.
The early Church Fathers help us by showing us that Jesus was their God, just as Thomas did (John 20:28)
Jesus was not one of those false Gods, Jesus was and is one with the Father as part of the one true God.
There is no separation between them in anything except that they are 2 distinct persons.
If there is only one true God as the Bible tells us then any other gods are not true gods,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, they are only gods in name.
That is the teaching of both the OT and the NT. That is monotheism.
If Jesus is the only Lord as the Bible teaches then that means that the Father is not our Lord unless Jesus is one with the Father, as He says He is.
And that "I and the Father are one" means that they are one thing,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, not just one in harmony.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Not within Catholicism and some other denominations. Trinitarianism uses an application of "essence" whereas Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the "essence" of God.
es·sence
[ˈes(ə)ns]
noun
- the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character:
"conflict is the essence of drama"
- philosophy
a property or group of properties of something without which it would not exist or be what it is.
- philosophy
SLPCCC
Active Member
JWs believe that there is a god who created things (Jesus) (1) and God/Father who created things (1). That equals to 2 gods/Gods. That's polytheism. You don't have to worship both. You just need to believe in that concept to be polytheistic.
You also believe that demons are gods. To us, monotheists, demons and human gods are just rulers nothing more.
Monotheist Christians don't believe in a god and God. Just in one God who created all things.
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setarcos
The hopeful or the hopeless?
Yes God is everywhere but wouldn't you agree that we distinguish God from his creation even though God is found throughout?
All Gods "messengers" do Gods bidding. They are "sent" by God. Those that are sent by God are distinguished from begin God. Otherwise the phrase "sent by God" would be superfluous and meaningless. So what is the meaning of "sent" do you think?
And God is in us as well wouldn't you agree? Ephesians 4:6
New International Version
"...one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."
This violates the simplicity of God. By definition a person is a unique entity with a unique will. It may be said each human being has one nature. That is we are all born with the same nature that makes each of us equally human yet we are clearly individuals in our personhood. We wouldn't declare that all of humanity is one being though. In like manner we shouldn't declare that God is one being yet can have 3 persons making up that one being.
I think if you actual read this sentence out loud you can understand why it confuses rather than explains.
By introducing a quantifiable quality to Gods essence you've effectively introduced modes to God as well. This too violates the monotheistic simplicity of the Christian God.
Simply using the word "they" in reference to God demands a confusing and meaningless interpretation.
The indivisible essence of God does not mean you can distinguish "parts" that is in that essence with labels such as "Son" and "Holy Spirit". Again these would be meaningless. We are all in God in that God sustains all things and all things come from God as scripture has said.
Trinitarian teaching most certainly equates Jesus with the "Son" portion of the Godhead.
This too isn't logically sustainable.
According to scripture:
1) Jesus was fully human. So human in fact that he was "new" Adam. Perfect in his nature...as a human. And as such, the perfect sacrificial lamb for humanities reconciliation.
2) Jesus only existed in time and for a duration...as a man. In other words Jesus -the man- was not an eternal being.
3) Jesus's nature - in trinitarian terms - was a "marriage" - Hypostatic union - of two natures human and divine into one individual personhood, presumably described by the made up Greek word of hypostasis - which attempts to describe a theoretical state but pretty much explains nothing.
4) God in trinitarian terms - the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost - is an eternal being. Has always existed and will always exist.
5) Whatever Jesus was on earth in his "hypostatic" union he couldn't have been equated to the "Son" portion of the Godhead since the humanity of Jesus did not exist until his birth on earth. In other words Jesus's "personhood" created by that hypostatic union could not have been the "personhood" of the Son portion of the Godhead. That would cause a contradiction in God which is impossible to sustain in reality.
6) The alternative to 5) above is that God's essence changed to accommodate the new alignment of personhood created with the birth of Jesus on earth. That is a violation of how the Christian God has been defined.
The Trinitarian concept as described in Catholicism is logically unsustainable and consequently meaningless. The concept developed historically due more to political maneuvering than divine revelation. imho
SLPCCC
Active Member
No, you also follow an organization.
You guys are worshiping Jesus now?
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Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Your thoughts, please, on the first commandment: "Put no other gods before Me." According to this, the Father acknowledges 'other gods.' What do you think?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
This is the definition I go by:
essence the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character.
Oxford Languages and Google - English | Oxford Languages
Google’s English dictionary is provided by Oxford Languages. Oxford Languages is the world’s leading dictionary publisher, with over 150 years of experience creating and delivering authoritative dictionaries globally in more than 50 languages.
languages.oup.com
So when I say thaht we can never know the essence of God I mean we can never know the intrinsic nature of God - what God is comprised or how God thinks and operates, etc.
If Baha'is believe in reincarnation then they are going against the authoritative Baha'i Writings.
Abdu'l-Baha gives a very good argument against reincarnation so there is no need for me to give one.
81: REINCARNATION
Living on this earth is for our spiritual growth and development, but there is no need to come back to this earth for a repeat experience.
An excerpt from the link above:
"Moreover, this material world has not such value or such excellence that man, after having escaped from this cage, will desire a second time to fall into this snare. No, through the Eternal Bounty the worth and true ability of man becomes apparent and visible by traversing the degrees of existence, and not by returning. When the shell is once opened, it will be apparent and evident whether it contains a pearl or worthless matter. When once the plant has grown it will bring forth either thorns or flowers; there is no need for it to grow up again. Besides, advancing and moving in the worlds in a direct order according to the natural law is the cause of existence, and a movement contrary to the system and law of nature is the cause of nonexistence. The return of the soul after death is contrary to the natural movement, and opposed to the divine system.
Therefore, by returning, it is absolutely impossible to obtain existence; it is as if man, after being freed from the womb, should return to it a second time. Consider what a puerile imagination this is which is implied by the belief in reincarnation and transmigration. Believers in it consider the body as a vessel in which the spirit is contained, as water is contained in a cup; this water has been taken from one cup and poured into another. This is child’s play. They do not realize that the spirit is an incorporeal being, and does not enter and come forth, but is only connected with the body as the sun is with the mirror. If it were thus, and the spirit by returning to this material world could pass through the degrees and attain to essential perfection, it would be better if God prolonged the life of the spirit in the material world until it had acquired perfections and graces; it then would not be necessary for it to taste of the cup of death, or to acquire a second life."
Some Answered Questions, pp. 286-287
It does take time and effort but that time and effort does not need to be spent in this world.
“The idea that existence is restricted to this perishable world, and the denial of the existence of divine worlds, originally proceeded from the imaginations of certain believers in reincarnation; but the divine worlds are infinite. If the divine worlds culminated in this material world, creation would be futile: nay, existence would be pure child’s play. The result of these endless beings, which is the noble existence of man, would come and go for a few days in this perishable dwelling, and after receiving punishments and rewards, at last all would become perfect. The divine creation and the infinite existing beings would be perfected and completed, and then the Divinity of the Lord, and the names and qualities of God, on behalf of these spiritual beings, would, as regards their effect, result in laziness and inaction! “Glory to thy Lord, the Lord Who is sanctified from all their descriptions.” 5 “
Some Answered Questions, pp. 287
I see no promise in that but you are welcome to your beliefs as we all are.
I do not believe that Heaven is on Earth. I believe Earth is a dark and narrow place compared to the many worlds of God that we will experience after we die.
“O thou seeker of the Kingdom! Thy letter was received. Thou hast written of the severe calamity that hath befallen thee—the death of thy respected husband. That honourable man hath been so subjected to the stress and strain of this world that his greatest wish was for deliverance from it. Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering. It is ignorance that binds man to it, for no comfort can be secured by any soul in this world, from monarch down to the most humble commoner. If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow; such is the condition of this world. The wise man, therefore, doth not attach himself to this mortal life and doth not depend upon it; at some moments, even, he eagerly wisheth for death that he may thereby be freed from these sorrows and afflictions. Thus it is seen that some, under extreme pressure of anguish, have committed suicide.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 200
However, Abdu'l-Baha also said that there is no real separation between this world and the spiritual world.
“Your questions, however, can be answered only briefly, since there is no time for a detailed reply. The answer to the first question: the souls of the children of the Kingdom, after their separation from the body, ascend unto the realm of everlasting life. But if ye ask as to the place, know ye that the world of existence is a single world, although its stations are various and distinct.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 193
“Those who have passed on through death, have a sphere of their own. It is not removed from ours; their work, the work of the Kingdom, is ours; but it is sanctified from what we call ‘time and place.’ Time with us is measured by the sun. When there is no more sunrise, and no more sunset, that kind of time does not exist for man. Those who have ascended have different attributes from those who are still on earth, yet there is no real separation.”
‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, pp. 95-96
Christians believe that Jesus rose in a physical body but if the stories about the resurrection are true, I believe that Jesus rose in a spiritual body.
I don't think anyone can answer that question with anything but "I don't know."
I don't believe that animals have a soul but I believe they have an animal spirit, and I believe that spirit continues to exist after their bodies die, just as the human soul continues to exist after death. I don't believe that animals will be judged by God because animals are innocent and I don't think they will return to God since they have no capacity to know God as humans do. I have no idea where their spirits will go or what form they will take or if we will be able to see them again.
SLPCCC
Active Member
God also says:
- “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6
Nehemiah 9:6
You alone are the LORD. You created the heavens, the highest heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to all things, and the host of heaven worships You.
Colossians 1:16
For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him [Jesus] and for Him.
Note that Jesus also says that He is "the First and the Last" in Revelation.
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walt
Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
I agree with you totally.
walt
Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. NIV
We all know Jesus would be considered on the good scale, The Highest out of anyone born on earth! Jesus did everything his Father asked him to do! Jesus most of the time gives his Father credit for everything good, for being the source of all goodness.
I think if we use Jesus example here we can better understand how Jesus is prophesied to be called Mighty God and God or a God, either way at John 1:1 He deserves all the credit for doing all that he did for his Father and for all mankind and suffering a terrible death because he loves his Father and he loves all of us so much! Agreeing with Thomas exclamation saying, my Lord and my God.
Are there two Gods? If we think like Jesus and use his example of reasoning we would give all the credit to the source of all goodness and power, to his Father Alone, [ One Almighty God ]. Just like there are [[ hundreds of people ]] that have been examples of goodness and righteousness throughout the Bible but Jesus says only one is good, God!
Using Jesus words as an example here it is easy to understand that the way we should believe should be a reflection of how Jesus explains how we should think. I think we should adjust our thinking to be like Christ Jesus thinking.
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. NIV
We all know Jesus would be considered on the good scale, The Highest out of anyone born on earth! Jesus did everything his Father asked him to do! Jesus most of the time gives his Father credit for everything good, for being the source of all goodness.
I think if we use Jesus example here we can better understand how Jesus is prophesied to be called Mighty God and God or a God, either way at John 1:1 He deserves all the credit for doing all that he did for his Father and for all mankind and suffering a terrible death because he loves his Father and he loves all of us so much! Agreeing with Thomas exclamation saying, my Lord and my God.
Are there two Gods? If we think like Jesus and use his example of reasoning we would give all the credit to the source of all goodness and power, to his Father Alone, [ One Almighty God ]. Just like there are [[ hundreds of people ]] that have been examples of goodness and righteousness throughout the Bible but Jesus says only one is good, God!
Using Jesus words as an example here it is easy to understand that the way we should believe should be a reflection of how Jesus explains how we should think. I think we should adjust our thinking to be like Christ Jesus thinking.
walt
Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
John 17:3 in prayer to his Father Jesus says: This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. And Jesus says at John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. NIV And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. KJB --Lk. 9:35
- Jesus praying to his father says you, the only true God. --Jn. 17:3
- Jesus says, For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son. --Jn. 3:16
- a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: --Lk. 9:35
Do we put faith in Jesus and his Father's words and allow them to adjust our thinking?
* Jesus and his Father explain what they want us to believe, do they ever explain Jesus is not really God's son? No!
Notice Jesus gives all the credit to his Father and calls him the only true God and what does Jesus say about himself [ and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ ]. Does Jesus call himself God? No! It seems Jesus is more concerned that we know who is the only true God and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ, Jesus explains the way he wants us to think and believe.
I try my very best to think and believe this way: I just quote the way Jesus explains it and that's my way of thinking, granted it does not disagree with everything else Jesus says, The Father says, the Angels and the Apostle's say and Jesus words becomes my concrete foundation.
- Jesus praying to his father says you, the only true God. --Jn. 17:3
- Jesus says, For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son. --Jn. 3:16
- a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: --Lk. 9:35
Do we put faith in Jesus and his Father's words and allow them to adjust our thinking?
* Jesus and his Father explain what they want us to believe, do they ever explain Jesus is not really God's son? No!
Notice Jesus gives all the credit to his Father and calls him the only true God and what does Jesus say about himself [ and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ ]. Does Jesus call himself God? No! It seems Jesus is more concerned that we know who is the only true God and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ, Jesus explains the way he wants us to think and believe.
I try my very best to think and believe this way: I just quote the way Jesus explains it and that's my way of thinking, granted it does not disagree with everything else Jesus says, The Father says, the Angels and the Apostle's say and Jesus words becomes my concrete foundation.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Jesus said that if we have seen Him, we have seen the Father. Jesus is the exact image of His Father. Jesus is good, just as His Father is good. And what does that logically mean if we believe what Jesus said? He said only God is good.
In the OT we find God asking:
Isa 40:25 To whom then will you compare me,
that I should be like him? says the Holy One.
26 Lift up your eyes on high and see:
who created these?
He who brings out their host by number,
calling them all by name;
by the greatness of his might
and because he is strong in power,
not one is missing.
In the NT we find Jesus compared to God. It is Jesus who is exactly like God and the heavens are the work of Jesus hands. (Heb 1:10-12)
Jesus shines with the radiance of the glory of God and is exactly like God (Heb 1)
Jesus is said to have been equal to God before He became a man, the servant of God. (Phil 2)
Jesus said that He has all authority in heaven and on earth. (Matt 28)
Jesus is called "Almighty". (Rev 1:8)
Jesus is called God throughout the NT.
Jesus is called the Son of God throughout the NT.
What sort of Son would that be? It would be a Son who comes from His Father, the same essence and nature as His Father.
We KNOW that Jesus was not created because the Bible tells us that ALL THINGS were created through Him. So how can He be one of those created things?
In the OT we find God asking:
Isa 40:25 To whom then will you compare me,
that I should be like him? says the Holy One.
26 Lift up your eyes on high and see:
who created these?
He who brings out their host by number,
calling them all by name;
by the greatness of his might
and because he is strong in power,
not one is missing.
In the NT we find Jesus compared to God. It is Jesus who is exactly like God and the heavens are the work of Jesus hands. (Heb 1:10-12)
Jesus shines with the radiance of the glory of God and is exactly like God (Heb 1)
Jesus is said to have been equal to God before He became a man, the servant of God. (Phil 2)
Jesus said that He has all authority in heaven and on earth. (Matt 28)
Jesus is called "Almighty". (Rev 1:8)
Jesus is called God throughout the NT.
Jesus is called the Son of God throughout the NT.
What sort of Son would that be? It would be a Son who comes from His Father, the same essence and nature as His Father.
We KNOW that Jesus was not created because the Bible tells us that ALL THINGS were created through Him. So how can He be one of those created things?
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
‘The knowledge and truth is not mine but of Him who sent me…’ : ‘YHWH (My Father, Him who sent me), is greater than I’.I agree with you totally.
‘I agree with the truth of Him who sent with His testimony and He agrees with my dissemination of it to humanity’ : ‘He is in me and I am in Him’.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Brian2, I’m not sure you understand what you believe.
Let me ask you: Are you believing in the trinity which claims that there are three persons who are the one true God of the Israelites, He who alone, by Himself, indivisible snd immutable, created all things and who alone must be worshipped by mankind?