• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It’s a such a thing that a complete misunderstanding, which is outlined completely in hindsight, is still a point of debate???!!!!

Is it not a simple enough thing to understand that the Jews TOOK THE POINT of taking God’s name in vain TOO FAR and, because of that, they stopped PRONOUNCING the name of God… They didn’t stop USING (writing) it. They just FEARED blaspheming and bringing a PERCEIVED retribution down upon themself.

We can see that the Old Testament includes the name of God right up until the end of that era. But can it be said that in the 400 years between the old and New Testament that they stopped even WRITING it???

Or is it more likely that the NEW TESTAMENT TRANSLATORS chose to blot out the name of God from anything NEW being written about God - I mean like even Jesus Christ nog pronouncing the name of his Father???!!

Is it likely that Jesus Christ feared blaspheming the name.,, Of course not. Did he fear upsetting the Jews… absolutely not!!!

So why is there nothing that Jesus said that contained the verbalising of the name of God???

I suggest that Jesus did speak the name of God but none of what he said was written down BY THE TRANSLATORS of the New Testament. Ask yourself, what of the quotes from the Torah where God’s name is mentioned - did JESUS change those into ‘My Father’ or ‘My God’ or similar to avoid saying ‘YHWH’?

But here is another thing? Who says that God does not have a NAME…? Is it not TRINITARIANS??? And why? Is it not so that they can call Jesus, ‘God’, because they know that it is the Father who is YHWH (His name) and that Jesus is the name of the Son, and the Spirit if God has no name because it is simply ‘OF GOD’ who has a name, ‘YHWH’?

These Trinitarians cannot change or modify the Old Testament bug they still tried by changing the name of God to an residual term, ‘LORD’, which is easily or accidentally able to be written as ‘Lord’, which carries a completely different meaning… Satanic kudos to whoever thought that up because we can see that it works - Trinity got it’s way and ‘LORD’ and ‘Lord’ mean the same things to its believers no matter how many times the difference is explained!!!
Interesting that it was continued written but not pronounced. No wonder Jesus could say,
"Whenever you pray, say: Father, Your name be honored as holy. Your kingdom come." I doubt Jesus would not say God's name.
Most translations say hallowed be thy name and I doubt many people even saying the prayer today know what hallowed means. God's name is to be treated as holy by those who care. The question is how come Jesus' name is said out loud or written out in Bibles if Jesus is "equal" to God, his heavenly Father?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes, you are right to call of irrelevant… because it should never have been a point of contention in the first place…

Unless you cannot read nor understand what you’ve read, my point was exactly that: The Jewish belief in possibly blaspheming the name of God, taken to the n’th degree such that no one of Jewish faith can even say His name, the eternal name: ‘YHWH’, has led to the eternal name of the one true God being DISCARDED … which has the effect of making the name null, void, immaterial - just like you said!!!

So, do you believe, like the Trinitarians, that the one true God does not have a name??

If you believe in the one true God having an eternal name, what do you say that eternal name is?
Soapy, the name of God is sacred. It should never be used in a sacrilegious or unholy way.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
What’s your point?

I don’t see where I was disputing anything concerning whether it’s ‘YHWH’ or ‘Jehovah’ or anything at all related to what you Yust posted!
I am saying that about the pronunciation because it's important to know about the background. Along with the unchristian action of putting LORD instead of properly rendering the text.

This is a very good point .. Lord is a Title .. YHWH is a name .. and matters not whether you want to put YHWH or Jehovah .. one is the other - it Jehovah is our guess as to how this sacred name was pronounced when you put vowels in .. but should be a name .. because it changes how passages are read and interpreted.. Especially when other Gods / Divinities are in the scene ..

For example .. the classic Psalm 82 .. using YHWH instead of "The Lord" and the proper name EL instead of the generic God

YHWH stands in[b] the assembly of El;[c] in the midst of the gods[d] he renders judgment.[e]

When you put the names of the Gods in .. the passage clearly gives the image of the Divine Pantheon .. Later on in the passage YHWH addresses these Gods as "Sons of the Supreme one" .. Supreme one "EL Oliun" an epithet for EL

So these are the famous children of EL from Deuteronomy 32:8 - updated New English Translation (all older modern bibles will mistranslate this passage .. because of the MT intentional mistranslation .. so need to go back to the LXX or 4 deut Q for the proper translation .. as discussed in the footnote.

When the Most High[l] gave the nations their inheritance,
when he divided up humankind,[m]
he set the boundaries of the peoples,
according to the number of the heavenly assembly.[n]
For YHWH s allotment is his people,
Jacob is his special possession.[o]

The most high - EL Elyon .. an Epithet for this EL Fellow .. God of Abraham .. and of the Patriarchs .. Chief God of The Canaanites .. also known as Enlil or Ellil .. a Chief God over in Ur where Abram grew up. .. and Abe chose to worship only one in the big Sumerian Pantheon so he chose the Most high one .... El Shaddai .. God of the Patriarchs who lives on a mountain in a tent .. "The Father" , Creator .. El Oliun - the Supreme One.

So .. back to Psalm 82 -- the story - a story told in every city (just substituting their Patron God -a different Son of Gods EL or EA - with the name YHWH) In the Temple of YHWH where this Psalm is sung .. of course it is YHWH who is depicted as winning the battle - defeating the other Son's of God and becoming Chief God over the Earth .. Lord EL still chief God in the heavens .. head ofd the Divine Council of Gods .. the God of the Holy Priest-hood of Zedek .. Twin Gods of Justice and Righteousness who sit at the right hand of The Father. Zedek the Patron God of Jerusalem during Abrahams time .. the City of Peace .. where the Canaanite Priest-king Melchi-Zedek ruled during Abes time .. and the Priest King Adoni-Zedek during Davids time when he took over ... keeping the priesthood intact rather than killing all the priests like in the other cities.

Good Stuff mates .. Whats in a name aye fellas .. nudge nudge wink wink .. say no more !?
 

Dimi95

Прaвославие!
This is a very good point .. Lord is a Title .. YHWH is a name .. and matters not whether you want to put YHWH or Jehovah .. one is the other - it Jehovah is our guess as to how this sacred name was pronounced when you put vowels in .. but should be a name .. because it changes how passages are read and interpreted.. Especially when other Gods / Divinities are in the scene ..

For example .. the classic Psalm 82 .. using YHWH instead of "The Lord" and the proper name EL instead of the generic God

YHWH stands in[b] the assembly of El;[c] in the midst of the gods[d] he renders judgment.[e]

When you put the names of the Gods in .. the passage clearly gives the image of the Divine Pantheon .. Later on in the passage YHWH addresses these Gods as "Sons of the Supreme one" .. Supreme one "EL Oliun" an epithet for EL

So these are the famous children of EL from Deuteronomy 32:8 - updated New English Translation (all older modern bibles will mistranslate this passage .. because of the MT intentional mistranslation .. so need to go back to the LXX or 4 deut Q for the proper translation .. as discussed in the footnote.

When the Most High[l] gave the nations their inheritance,
when he divided up humankind,[m]
he set the boundaries of the peoples,
according to the number of the heavenly assembly.[n]
For YHWH s allotment is his people,
Jacob is his special possession.[o]

The most high - EL Elyon .. an Epithet for this EL Fellow .. God of Abraham .. and of the Patriarchs .. Chief God of The Canaanites .. also known as Enlil or Ellil .. a Chief God over in Ur where Abram grew up. .. and Abe chose to worship only one in the big Sumerian Pantheon so he chose the Most high one .... El Shaddai .. God of the Patriarchs who lives on a mountain in a tent .. "The Father" , Creator .. El Oliun - the Supreme One.

So .. back to Psalm 82 -- the story - a story told in every city (just substituting their Patron God -a different Son of Gods EL or EA - with the name YHWH) In the Temple of YHWH where this Psalm is sung .. of course it is YHWH who is depicted as winning the battle - defeating the other Son's of God and becoming Chief God over the Earth .. Lord EL still chief God in the heavens .. head ofd the Divine Council of Gods .. the God of the Holy Priest-hood of Zedek .. Twin Gods of Justice and Righteousness who sit at the right hand of The Father. Zedek the Patron God of Jerusalem during Abrahams time .. the City of Peace .. where the Canaanite Priest-king Melchi-Zedek ruled during Abes time .. and the Priest King Adoni-Zedek during Davids time when he took over ... keeping the priesthood intact rather than killing all the priests like in the other cities.

Good Stuff mates .. Whats in a name aye fellas .. nudge nudge wink wink .. say no more !?
This is most probably what the people thought in ancient times , since they assumed they were made in the image of God.

And there is this divine essence who claims divine power over them.

And this divine essence represents a name : YHWH , which Jews considered so sacred that they decided to add vowels and honour him lingustically and through communication.To not use his name in vain.

The Masoretes, who from about the 6th to the 10th century ce worked to reproduce the original text of the Hebrew Bible, added to “YHWH” the vowel signs of the Hebrew words Adonai or Elohim.

Adonai as 'My Lord' gives emphasys on the way Jews adressed their God in worship.
It has importance lingustically , since it gives importance to sumbission in communication.

So , not just the Jews , but other people othen then Jews considered El as a supreme deity.

"El, the general term for “deity” in Semitic languages as well as the name of the chief deity of the West Semites. In the ancient texts from Ras Shamra (ancient Ugarit) in Syria, El was described as the titular head of the pantheon, husband of Asherah, and father of all the other gods (except for Baal).29.2.2024"

Source : Britanica

Welcome to polytheism outside of the Bible ;)

No wounder why Elohim is used mostly as plural in the OT to give importance on multiple dieties.
The word elohim or 'elohiym (ʼĕlôhîym) is a grammatically plural noun for "gods" or "deities" or various other words in Biblical Hebrew. In Hebrew, the ending -im normally indicates a masculine plural.

יג כִּי, אֲנִי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ--מַחֲזִיק יְמִינֶךָ; הָאֹמֵר לְךָ אַל-תִּירָא, אֲנִי עֲזַרְתִּיךָ. {ס}

Isaiah 41:13
'For I the LORD thy God hold thy right hand, who say unto thee: 'Fear not, I help thee.' {S}

א לְדָוִד, מִזְמוֹר:
נְאֻם יְהוָה, לַאדֹנִי--שֵׁב לִימִינִי; עַד-אָשִׁית אֹיְבֶיךָ, הֲדֹם לְרַגְלֶיךָ.

Psalm 110:1
A Psalm of David. {N}
The LORD saith unto my lord: 'Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.'

'I am' is replaced with 'The Lord' since they considered 'I am' so sacred.

The earliest extant manuscript fragments of the Pentateuch date to the late third or early second centuries BCE.

The earliest Jewish writings date to 11BCE

Khirbet Qeiyafa relates the Birth of the kingdom of Israel.


Also

The editio princeps of the inscription was published by Haggai Misgav, Yosef Garfinkel, and Saar Ganor in the 2009 Khirbet Qeiyafa excavation volume.


And then comes Jesus and says : 'I am'

and then we have eyewitness in the Gospel of John 1 who says:
'He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.'

If you replace 'I am' or 'YHWH' instead of Word and God with Elohim then John 1:1 would be like this:

These are just titles

"In the beginning was 'I am', and 'I am' was with 'Elohim', and 'I am' was 'Elohim'."

The Hebrew word for God is Elohim.

If you ask any religious Jew to chose one Word over every other they will say YHWH.Any Jew who denies that - is not honest.
I don't mean this in negative sense , i know because i know how sacred is that name for Jews.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
This is most probably what the people thought in ancient times , since they assumed they were made in the image of God.

And there is this divine essence who claims divine power over them.

And this divine essence represents a name : YHWH , which Jews considered so sacred that they decided to add vowels and honour him lingustically and through communication.To not use his name in vain.

The Masoretes, who from about the 6th to the 10th century ce worked to reproduce the original text of the Hebrew Bible, added to “YHWH” the vowel signs of the Hebrew words Adonai or Elohim.

Adonai as 'My Lord' gives emphasys on the way Jews adressed their God in worship.
It has importance lingustically , since it gives importance to sumbission in communication.

So , not just the Jews , but other people othen then Jews considered El as a supreme deity.

"El, the general term for “deity” in Semitic languages as well as the name of the chief deity of the West Semites. In the ancient texts from Ras Shamra (ancient Ugarit) in Syria, El was described as the titular head of the pantheon, husband of Asherah, and father of all the other gods (except for Baal).29.2.2024"

Source : Britanica

Welcome to polytheism outside of the Bible ;)

No wounder why Elohim is used mostly as plural in the OT to give importance on multiple dieties.
The word elohim or 'elohiym (ʼĕlôhîym) is a grammatically plural noun for "gods" or "deities" or various other words in Biblical Hebrew. In Hebrew, the ending -im normally indicates a masculine plural.

יג כִּי, אֲנִי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ--מַחֲזִיק יְמִינֶךָ; הָאֹמֵר לְךָ אַל-תִּירָא, אֲנִי עֲזַרְתִּיךָ. {ס}

Isaiah 41:13
'For I the LORD thy God hold thy right hand, who say unto thee: 'Fear not, I help thee.' {S}

א לְדָוִד, מִזְמוֹר:
נְאֻם יְהוָה, לַאדֹנִי--שֵׁב לִימִינִי; עַד-אָשִׁית אֹיְבֶיךָ, הֲדֹם לְרַגְלֶיךָ.

Psalm 110:1
A Psalm of David. {N}
The LORD saith unto my lord: 'Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.'

'I am' is replaced with 'The Lord' since they considered 'I am' so sacred.

The earliest extant manuscript fragments of the Pentateuch date to the late third or early second centuries BCE.

The earliest Jewish writings date to 11BCE

Khirbet Qeiyafa relates the Birth of the kingdom of Israel.


Also

The editio princeps of the inscription was published by Haggai Misgav, Yosef Garfinkel, and Saar Ganor in the 2009 Khirbet Qeiyafa excavation volume.


And then comes Jesus and says : 'I am'

and then we have eyewitness in the Gospel of John 1 who says:
'He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.'

If you replace 'I am' or 'YHWH' instead of Word and God with Elohim then John 1:1 would be like this:

These are just titles

"In the beginning was 'I am', and 'I am' was with 'Elohim', and 'I am' was 'Elohim'."

The Hebrew word for God is Elohim.

If you ask any religious Jew to chose one Word over every other they will say YHWH.Any Jew who denies that - is not honest.
I don't mean this in negative sense , i know because i know how sacred is that name for Jews.
?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The argument in the first part was that ‘A Son is equal to his Father’ - and where in Heaven or on earth is there ever such a claim made in righteousness???? Nowhere… a device of the trinitarian fallacy mindedness. How can a subordinate entity be equal to that from which it is subordinated???

It is a matter of the type of Son we consider Jesus to be. If Jesus is a Son who comes from His Father then He and His Father have the same nature, this is God nature, to begin with, the 2 are uncreated.

What magic allows a cup of size x to be taken out of a cup of the same size x? And magic is not real but mere illusion - and so it is with the claim of a son being equal to his Father! The argument says that since the Father passes on what is His to the Son then that Son “ALREADY OWNS WHAT IS THE FATHER’S” and so they are equal…

But what is it if the Father has many Sons - are they all equal to the Father? Does each own all that the Father owns….?? And what of the Father’s WIFE…?

I have never heard that argument for Jesus being equal to His Father and I have only seen in scripture that Jesus own all that the Father has (John 16:15)
Of course Christians are adopted children of God and so share in the inheritance of the natural child of God, Jesus.
God has many sons but Jesus is the only Son of God in the sense I have just given.
What wife of God are you talking about?

In stating what he was doing, Jesus was DEFINING WHAT A SON [Of God] meant, though he never ever called himself by these word (this term): ‘Son of God’, but rather, ‘Son of Man’ - a human Being.

Mark 14:61 But Jesus remained silent and made no reply. Again the high priest questioned Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62“I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.”…

Matthew 16:15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus said to him, “Simon, son of Jonah, you are happy because you did not learn this from man. My Father in heaven has shown you this.

I'm sure there are more.
But yes, Jesus is a man and is the Son of Man as shown in Daniel.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Ok, as I understand it, el was a neighboring god and so Elohim was the superlative noun referencing the God of the Israelites. Like God of Gods. But it's not always easy to understand all the technical differences of language and cultures. Thanks for your comments.
 

Dimi95

Прaвославие!

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
What’s your point?

I don’t see where I was disputing anything concerning whether it’s ‘YHWH’ or ‘Jehovah’ or anything at all related to what you Yust posted!
Because it's not improper to say the word Jehovah in English with the J sound. "Yust" as it's ok to say Jesus and not necessarily Yeshua. Depends on situation, right? Just (no, sorry 'yust') mentioning it.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
One thing here to note is that he did not say to them 'I am' as we understand it.

He answered them with 'Ehyeh' , and then - everyone knows..
Hi. Not quite on your conversation here, but here is an interesting scripture I was reading today.
1 Peter 3:18 says, (Berean Literal Bible) "because Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, so that He might bring you to God, having been put to death indeed in the flesh, but having been made alive in the spirit,"
"Made alive in the spirit." Interesting, "made alive..." How do you feel about that ("made alive").
 

Dimi95

Прaвославие!
Ok, as I understand it, el was a neighboring god and so Elohim was the superlative noun referencing the God of the Israelites. Like God of Gods. But it's not always easy to understand all the technical differences of language and cultures. Thanks for your comments.
It is not , here you are right.

That is my area of study and very often i struggle with those technical differences.
Language and development of language is not simple.

One thing you should also note is the growth of human language as Expression of consciousness.We can trace that back to the earliest roots.

In the begining there was no words , the oldest evidence of how those who lived visualized consciousness is this picture in a cave.


When i look at the picture , i realize - that is probably the best they could have done , since they were unable to know better.Why otherwise will someone draw in caves?
The answer is always the same - they knew not better.

And then you see a dog and you ask yourself, what Am I in that dog's brain..

This Pig art is the oldest evidence of a human(potentially) who visualized how he perceived Reality.

We did not create Reality , we gain the ability to visualize how our brain perceived Reality.

That is Evolution of consciousness.

The first step out of Young Earth Creationism is accepting this kind of evidence.
You should also know that carbon dating is very accurate within 50000 years.

This picture in the cave is dated 45 000 years ago.
 
Last edited:

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It is not , here you are right.

That is my area of study and very often i struggle with those technical differences.
Language and development of language is not simple.

One thing you should also note is the growth of human language as Expression of consciousness.We can trace that back to the earliest roots.

In the begining there was no words , the oldest evidence of how those who lived visualized consciousness is this picture in a cave.


When i look at the picture , i realize - that is probably the best they could have done , since they were unable to know better.Why otherwise will someone draw in caves?
The answer is always the same - they knew not better.

And then you see a dog and you ask yourself, what Am I in that dog's brain..

This Pig art is the oldest evidence of a human(potentially) who visualized how he perceived Reality.

We did not create Reality , we gain the ability to visualize how our brain perceived Reality.

That is Evolution of consciousness.

The first step out of Young Earth Creationism is accepting this kind of evidence.
You should also know that carbon dating is very accurate within 50000 years.

This picture in the cave is dated 45 000 years ago.
Hello again. When I went to college I took a course and the instructor said that some cave drawings were 10,000 years old. I thought that was a long time ago, but I had nothing to gauge it by. Now I believe the information has changed to be much older than that. However, dimi95, some time after I left school I began to study the Bible.
Now I look at things from the Bible's viewpoint to a large extent. Meaning that when mankind began, God made coverings for Adam and Eve. They did not make them for themselves. Before that Adam was given the opportunity to name the animals. They had to leave the Garden of Eden and basically had to fend for themselves. I am convinced that they were given the gift of language.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Hello again. When I went to college I took a course and the instructor said that some cave drawings were 10,000 years old.
It's a fascinating subject, I agree. The cave art spans a good deal of time, most of it dating from 14,000 to 40,000 years ago. The oldest representational picture is a pig drawn in red ochre about 45,000 years ago, but if you expand the search to abstract drawings, the oldest known is that of a hashtag from about 73,000 years ago. Some of these drawing are not homo sapiens, but neanderthal.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It's a fascinating subject, I agree. The cave art spans a good deal of time, most of it dating from 14,000 to 40,000 years ago. The oldest representational picture is a pig drawn in red ochre about 45,000 years ago, but if you expand the search to abstract drawings, the oldest known is that of a hashtag from about 73,000 years ago. Some of these drawing are not homo sapiens, but neanderthal.
OK, thank you for that. My big question is about the dating process. I know some can say how the cave paintings (drawings, perhaps) were dated but I have questions about that and should really speak to an expert about that or the actual explorers. Not necessarily reports in an article, but the actual examiners. Who knows, maybe I'll call a local college and ask to speak to someone who might know. :)
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
OK, thank you for that. My big question is about the dating process. I know some can say how the cave paintings (drawings, perhaps) were dated but I have questions about that and should really speak to an expert about that or the actual explorers. Not necessarily reports in an article, but the actual examiners. Who knows, maybe I'll call a local college and ask to speak to someone who might know. :)
Sounds like a good idea. :)
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Yes, but I surely hope they won't quote a textbook to me. or what they learned in school. :) (I can find that for myself maybe.)
I have found that when I actually go see a professor during their office hours, that they are great at chatting informally, so long as I keep my questions to those that can be answered in 5 minutes. After all, they usually get paid for teaching. :)

These professors have PhD's. They have learned extensively from many different sources, and have proven themselves capable of doing quality research. For them, "what they learned at school" is pretty exhaustive, and worthy of our respect.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I have found that when I actually go see a professor during their office hours, that they are great at chatting informally, so long as I keep my questions to those that can be answered in 5 minutes. After all, they usually get paid for teaching. :)

These professors have PhD's. They have learned extensively from many different sources, and have proven themselves capable of doing quality research. For them, "what they learned at school" is pretty exhaustive, and worthy of our respect.
I understand. I'll have to find someone expert either in the field of art in terms of cave art or dating processes. Maybe that would be anthropology.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I have found that when I actually go see a professor during their office hours, that they are great at chatting informally, so long as I keep my questions to those that can be answered in 5 minutes. After all, they usually get paid for teaching. :)

These professors have PhD's. They have learned extensively from many different sources, and have proven themselves capable of doing quality research. For them, "what they learned at school" is pretty exhaustive, and worthy of our respect.
Some doctors are better than others.
 
Top