Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

[Hockeycowboy]

Oh, then you are friends with @TransmutingSoul or Tony?

Well, I know he’s a very nice individual!

I think we are friends.

I know I’d like to meet him. And you & Trailblazer, for that matter. (I think someday, I will.)

It seems that most Bahai’s try to have a kind nature.

I think that most JW’s try to, also.
Going from door-to-door as we do, we get “tested” you could say.

Have a good day, my cousin.

 

[Soapy]

Are you sure about this?

Yes, I’m sure. The more views a video gets over a certain amount the more money it earns for the maker. Make the video as controversial as you can while seeming to make sense and viewers will watch it over and over and link it to others to watch… increasing the earnings of the maker.

You are sceptical? Of course there are A FEW that are INTENDED to be wholesome attempts at expressing a faith without the said, primary earnings, element. But there will not be much viewership … CONTROVERSY… drives viewer/readership. But if you want to drive up views the court controversy.

Check the number of view for what you watch… Check how many links they have. It’s all about those two aspects. The internet is a very dangerous place to seek truth … you are warned (again!).

 

[Soapy]

Interesting that it was continued written but not pronounced. No wonder Jesus could say,
"Whenever you pray, say: Father, Your name be honored as holy. Your kingdom come." I doubt Jesus would not say God's name.
Most translations say hallowed be thy name and I doubt many people even saying the prayer today know what hallowed means. God's name is to be treated as holy by those who care. The question is how come Jesus' name is said out loud or written out in Bibles if Jesus is "equal" to God, his heavenly Father?

Ha ha ha.. do you know how many times I’ve asked that same question … with no response!!!?

But, of course, Trinitarians will say that it’s because ‘Jesus’ is a human name and ‘YHWH’ is his GOD name… Even @Brian2 keeps saying in desperation that Jesus is YHWH because he cannot fathom any other way of justifying how Jesus could be ‘equal’ to God… Yet we know that scriptures says that Jesus is GIVEN THE NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES after he is taken up to Heaven BY GOD and seated NEXT TO GOD!!
When you think about it, if Jesus is YHWH GOD and GOD gives him a name HIGHER than what he already has …then that name is HIGHER THAN GOD, higher that ‘YHWH’.

In reality, the name he is given is one that now expresses his awesome eternal position as ruler over creation, an eternal position which will never change… an ‘I AM’: ‘An immutable / unchanging / unchangeable entity’, as in:

• ‘Yahweh is my name, I change not!’: the name, and the definition of the name.

 

[Soapy]

Soapy, the name of God is sacred. It should never be used in a sacrilegious or unholy way.

I AGREE!!!

What / which part, are you disagreeing with what I said???

 

[Soapy]

This is a very good point .. Lord is a Title .. YHWH is a name .. and matters not whether you want to put YHWH or Jehovah .. one is the other - it Jehovah is our guess as to how this sacred name was pronounced when you put vowels in .. but should be a name .. because it changes how passages are read and interpreted.. Especially when other Gods / Divinities are in the scene ..

For example .. the classic Psalm 82 .. using YHWH instead of "The Lord" and the proper name EL instead of the generic God

YHWH stands in[b] the assembly of El;[c] in the midst of the gods[d] he renders judgment.[e]

When you put the names of the Gods in .. the passage clearly gives the image of the Divine Pantheon .. Later on in the passage YHWH addresses these Gods as "Sons of the Supreme one" .. Supreme one "EL Oliun" an epithet for EL

So these are the famous children of EL from Deuteronomy 32:8 - updated New English Translation (all older modern bibles will mistranslate this passage .. because of the MT intentional mistranslation .. so need to go back to the LXX or 4 deut Q for the proper translation .. as discussed in the footnote.

When the Most High[l] gave the nations their inheritance,
when he divided up humankind,[m]
he set the boundaries of the peoples,
according to the number of the heavenly assembly.[n]
For YHWH s allotment is his people,
Jacob is his special possession.[o]

The most high - EL Elyon .. an Epithet for this EL Fellow .. God of Abraham .. and of the Patriarchs .. Chief God of The Canaanites .. also known as Enlil or Ellil .. a Chief God over in Ur where Abram grew up. .. and Abe chose to worship only one in the big Sumerian Pantheon so he chose the Most high one .... El Shaddai .. God of the Patriarchs who lives on a mountain in a tent .. "The Father" , Creator .. El Oliun - the Supreme One.

So .. back to Psalm 82 -- the story - a story told in every city (just substituting their Patron God -a different Son of Gods EL or EA - with the name YHWH) In the Temple of YHWH where this Psalm is sung .. of course it is YHWH who is depicted as winning the battle - defeating the other Son's of God and becoming Chief God over the Earth .. Lord EL still chief God in the heavens .. head ofd the Divine Council of Gods .. the God of the Holy Priest-hood of Zedek .. Twin Gods of Justice and Righteousness who sit at the right hand of The Father. Zedek the Patron God of Jerusalem during Abrahams time .. the City of Peace .. where the Canaanite Priest-king Melchi-Zedek ruled during Abes time .. and the Priest King Adoni-Zedek during Davids time when he took over ... keeping the priesthood intact rather than killing all the priests like in the other cities.

Good Stuff mates .. Whats in a name aye fellas .. nudge nudge wink wink .. say no more !?

What’s in a name? In terms of Scriptures, it gives the expression of the purpose of a person.

YHWH is a name contracted from an expression as shown in Genesis with Moses.

Abram was changed to Abraham to show what God was destining him for.

Joshua was that he would be the one to lead the children of Israel into the promised land…

Yeshua is ‘Joshua’ (anglicised into ‘Jesus’) which we know means: ‘He will save [his people]’.

Yes, what’s in a name if you care not to seek its meaning….! But if you seek it then many truths will be revealed to you.

But it seems many in this forum (and worldwide) do not appear to understand the difference between a NAME (personal epithet) and a TITLE (a description of a purpose).

‘Christ’ means ‘Anointed one’ (Anyone or anything that is ANOINTED, sanctified, set apart… is A CHRIST… but contemporary USAGE has destroyed the meaning… I don’t understand how the many examples in the Torah do not contribute to their understanding!! Maybe they just do not want to understand because then they might learn the truth - which ‘HO SATAN’ - The Satan, does not want them to learn.)

‘Satan’ means ‘An opposer’ (Satan is NOT A NAME…. It’s a title’ and carries the pre-word ‘The’ (‘The Satan) and ‘The Devil’.)

‘God’ is a TITLE… it, too, carries the pre-word, ‘The’: ‘The God ….’. Because Jews have only one God the pre-word is dropped for ease of use. In a belief in many Gods it would always be required to use the pre-word as in ‘The God of the underworld’, ‘The God of Harvest’, etc.

WHY IS THERE SO MUCH CONFUSION TO SUCH A SIMPLE MATTER (yes, I know… I just wanted to say it / ask it!!!)

 

[Soapy]

It is a matter of the type of Son we consider Jesus to be. If Jesus is a Son who comes from His Father then He and His Father have the same nature, this is God nature, to begin with, the 2 are uncreated.



I have never heard that argument for Jesus being equal to His Father and I have only seen in scripture that Jesus own all that the Father has (John 16:15)
Of course Christians are adopted children of God and so share in the inheritance of the natural child of God, Jesus.
God has many sons but Jesus is the only Son of God in the sense I have just given.
What wife of God are you talking about?



Mark 14:61 But Jesus remained silent and made no reply. Again the high priest questioned Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62“I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.”…

Matthew 16:15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus said to him, “Simon, son of Jonah, you are happy because you did not learn this from man. My Father in heaven has shown you this.

I'm sure there are more.
But yes, Jesus is a man and is the Son of Man as shown in Daniel.

Brian2, you are amazing… you even say things against yourself in your desperation.

You agree that Jesus never actually ever called himself ‘Son of God’ but that if is others who said it and he agreed.

He called himself, ‘Son of Man’… I thought you were going to present a verse where jesus said, ‘I AM, Son of God’, claiming that he was both GOD and The Son of God.

But Brian2, GOD is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’, according to trinity.

So, Brian2, if Jesus is God, the Jesus is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’…

But one in your ‘God’ is the son, who IS GOD:
‘Father, [Father, Son, and Holy spirit], and Holy Spirit’.

And the Son is in ‘God’ who is in God, giving:
‘Father, [Father, [Father, Son, and Holy spirit], and Holy spirit], and Holy Spirit’…
…Ad nauseam!! An unending recursive claim.

And, remember, this recursion also applies to the Father… giving, in short:

• Your God is ‘God, God, and God’… three Gods.

 

[Soapy]

Who on earth was contending that… Are you ‘on’ something?

Because it's not improper to say the word Jehovah in English with the J sound. "Yust" as it's ok to say Jesus and not necessarily Yeshua. Depends on situation, right? Just (no, sorry 'yust') mentioning it.

Where did this argument come from?

Have I ever said anything against ‘Jehovah’? Or ‘Jahweh’. I know more about these letter(character) changes than you appear to think. I’m only interested here in why you mention it to me who has no problem with it.
Yesus, Yoshua, YESHUA, whatever,,as long as the heart is true!! Why do we not fear saying the name of the Son of God - if he is God?

 

[Soapy]

There is no logic to the Trinity belief, don't you know that after 45 years?

That’s what I’ve been both learning and teaching for 50 years …!

 

[Brian2]

Brian2, you are amazing… you even say things against yourself in your desperation.

You agree that Jesus never actually ever called himself ‘Son of God’ but that if is others who said it and he agreed.

He called himself, ‘Son of Man’… I thought you were going to present a verse where jesus said, ‘I AM, Son of God’, claiming that he was both GOD and The Son of God.

But Brian2, GOD is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’, according to trinity.

So, Brian2, if Jesus is God, the Jesus is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’…

But one in your ‘God’ is the son, who IS GOD:
‘Father, [Father, Son, and Holy spirit], and Holy Spirit’.

And the Son is in ‘God’ who is in God, giving:
‘Father, [Father, [Father, Son, and Holy spirit], and Holy spirit], and Holy Spirit’…
…Ad nauseam!! An unending recursive claim.

And, remember, this recursion also applies to the Father… giving, in short:

• Your God is ‘God, God, and God’… three Gods.

Of course you know that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God and the Son of Man. So why are you denying it?
Mark 14:61,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,“Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62“I am,” said Jesus,................................................
Matt 16:16 Simon Peter said, . “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus said to him, “Simon, son of Jonah, you are happy because you did not learn this from man. My Father in heaven has shown you this.

 

[Brian2]

That’s what I’ve been both learning and teaching for 50 years …!

You have been learning and teaching that the Bible teaches things that you disagree with and so is wrong and has been changed by Christians.
IOW you put your ideas ahead of the Bible.

 

[joelr]

The earliest extant manuscript fragments of the Pentateuch date to the late third or early second centuries BCE.

The earliest Jewish writings date to 11BCE

Khirbet Qeiyafa relates the Birth of the kingdom of Israel.

Qeiyafa Ostracon Relates the Birth of the Kingdom of Israel

Gerard Leval presents French epigrapher Émile Puech's interpretation of the Qeiyafa Ostracon as the earliest text on the formation of the Kingdom of Israel and

www.biblicalarchaeology.org

Also

The editio princeps of the inscription was published by Haggai Misgav, Yosef Garfinkel, and Saar Ganor in the 2009 Khirbet Qeiyafa excavation volume.

Khirbet Qeiyafa ostracon - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And then comes Jesus and says : 'I am'

and then we have eyewitness in the Gospel of John 1 who says:
'He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.'

If you replace 'I am' or 'YHWH' instead of Word and God with Elohim then John 1:1 would be like this:

These are just titles

"In the beginning was 'I am', and 'I am' was with 'Elohim', and 'I am' was 'Elohim'."

The Hebrew word for God is Elohim.

If you ask any religious Jew to chose one Word over every other they will say YHWH.Any Jew who denies that - is not honest.
I don't mean this in negative sense , i know because i know how sacred is that name for Jews.

That site is highly debated, has no conclusive evidence and there are theories it has nothing to do with Israelites.

If this was a cultic site, who worshipped what there? We don’t know. “Tragically,” as Ussishkin puts it, there are no written records like in ancient Mesopotamia or Anatolia. There is the Qeiyafa ostracon, a pottery fragment with five lines of writing about which there is no agreement – what alphabet, what language, nothing except that a god is mentioned (the El one) and he should be adored. In Judahic and Israelite sites, we don’t have anything like King Whoever built this temple to god this or that, Ussishkin mourns. As do we all.

New theory for Khirbet Qeiyafa: Not King David’s city but a vast cultic compound

No Consensus Was Ever Reached About the Fortified Hilltop Site of Qeiyafa in Central Israel, but Now We Have a Whole New Theory for Everybody to Argue About

www.haaretz.com

In most Levantine societies the pantheon was headed by El. Many remains from the 14th and 13th century confirm he was the father of all the gods.
An early variant of Deuteronomy has El giving Israel to Yahweh.

Poetry in scripture shows Yahweh was originally a warrior storm deity, thousands of goddess figurines as well as other temple construction show he was paired with Ashera the goddess.
The Biblical Yahweh is a much later creation.
I'm going by archaeologist William Dever, and Fransesca Stavrakopoulou and Dr Baden.

 

[joelr]

I understand. I'll have to find someone expert either in the field of art in terms of cave art or dating processes. Maybe that would be anthropology.

There are multiple methods of dating. They usually cross-check with several types.

Radiometric dating - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Luminescence dating methods​

Chlorine-36 dating method​

Fission track dating method​

Radiocarbon dating method​

Uranium–thorium dating method​

Rubidium–strontium dating method​

Potassium–argon dating method​

Samarium–neodymium dating method​

Uranium–lead dating method​

among several others. With rocks it's also used together with stratigraphic principles, to establish time scales.

 

[Sargonski]

What’s in a name? In terms of Scriptures, it gives the expression of the purpose of a person.

YHWH is a name contracted from an expression as shown in Genesis with Moses.

Abram was changed to Abraham to show what God was destining him for.

Joshua was that he would be the one to lead the children of Israel into the promised land…

Yeshua is ‘Joshua’ (anglicised into ‘Jesus’) which we know means: ‘He will save [his people]’.

Yes, what’s in a name if you care not to seek its meaning….! But if you seek it then many truths will be revealed to you.

But it seems many in this forum (and worldwide) do not appear to understand the difference between a NAME (personal epithet) and a TITLE (a description of a purpose).

‘Christ’ means ‘Anointed one’ (Anyone or anything that is ANOINTED, sanctified, set apart… is A CHRIST… but contemporary USAGE has destroyed the meaning… I don’t understand how the many examples in the Torah do not contribute to their understanding!! Maybe they just do not want to understand because then they might learn the truth - which ‘HO SATAN’ - The Satan, does not want them to learn.)

‘Satan’ means ‘An opposer’ (Satan is NOT A NAME…. It’s a title’ and carries the pre-word ‘The’ (‘The Satan) and ‘The Devil’.)

‘God’ is a TITLE… it, too, carries the pre-word, ‘The’: ‘The God ….’. Because Jews have only one God the pre-word is dropped for ease of use. In a belief in many Gods it would always be required to use the pre-word as in ‘The God of the underworld’, ‘The God of Harvest’, etc.

WHY IS THERE SO MUCH CONFUSION TO SUCH A SIMPLE MATTER (yes, I know… I just wanted to say it / ask it!!!)

Correct about the Adversary -- but you missed the point .. which is that there are many different Gods in the Bible ... each having a name ..(except for Satan , all we get for him is a Title as you suggest - and arguably YHWH but that is a different matter)

We have Azazel - EL - Marduk - Chemosh - YHWH - BAAL - Asherah - These Gods are central characters in the story that are battleing each other to take over the position (like that of the Adversary at one point) of Chief God on Earth .. supplanting EL who then resides as high God in the heavens ... Head of the Divin Council.

YHWH is one of the "Sons of God" fighting in this battle .. and while YHWH will lose some battles along the way .. in Psalm 82 he is depicted as winning the battle .. defeating the other Gods .. sitting on the "Chief God of the Earth" throne.

"Why is there so much confusion over this" you ask .. because it is confusing .. did you know that YHWH was one of the Son's of God .. or were you previouly confused ?

and then many epithets for some of the Gods .. EL Elyon - God most high, EL Oliun - God Supreme, EL-Shaddai - God in the Mountains -- another God on High Reference coupled with twin peaks perhaps having a fertility

 

[Dimi95]

That site is highly debated, has no conclusive evidence and there are theories it has nothing to do with Israelites.

Has nothing to do with the data , since we know that the language may be Hebrew, Canaanite, Phoenician or Moabite.

However most probably man considered other man to be also God in ancient times.

Like for example , Anubis

There is a 5,070-year-old Egyptian wooden tablet that was used as a tag attached to goods shipped. The legend on the tablet is the address of the recipient or sender of the goods. It has nothing to do with religion or religious texts.

.

The legend on the tablet reads: “[To/from] The judge Anubis in the Mesquet chamber of judge’s gown, administrator of Horus’ enclosure".

Legend of the tablett:

Here is only shown a passage in a religious text (The Book of the Dead) that refers to the judge god Anubis in the judgment hall of the Osirian after-death judgment as "Administrator of the god's enclosure".

The term 'Horus' meant 'Lord' and so did the word 'god'. The :enclosure' was actually a Human Breeding Grounds Institution established and operated by the king (the Lord). The real-life judgment (assessment for social classification) of the offspring produced in the human breeding grounds of the king, was transformed, by the ancient Egyptian theologians, into the Last Judgment of what they taught to be potentially after-death judgment … which the ancient Greek philosophers copied.

In the same way, we can say that 'Judge Anubis' was a real person who was attributing social ranks to youngsters born and raised in human breeding grounds, was presented as an immaterial god who was judging the dead.

If this was a cultic site, who worshipped what there? We don’t know. “Tragically,” as Ussishkin puts it, there are no written records like in ancient Mesopotamia or Anatolia.

The Hebrews are ancestors of the Jews, who originally came from modern-day Iraq.

There is the Qeiyafa ostracon, a pottery fragment with five lines of writing about which there is no agreement – what alphabet, what language, nothing except that a god is mentioned (the El one) and he should be adored.

Actaually , you are wrong.
We don't know exactly , but we know that it may be Hebrew, Canaanite, Phoenician or Moabite.

In Judahic and Israelite sites, we don’t have anything like King Whoever built this temple to god this or that, Ussishkin mourns. As do we all.

Irrelevant

New theory for Khirbet Qeiyafa: Not King David’s city but a vast cultic compound

No Consensus Was Ever Reached About the Fortified Hilltop Site of Qeiyafa in Central Israel, but Now We Have a Whole New Theory for Everybody to Argue About

www.haaretz.com

In most Levantine societies the pantheon was headed by El. Many remains from the 14th and 13th century confirm he was the father of all the gods.
An early variant of Deuteronomy has El giving Israel to Yahweh.

That is because ancient Levant was mainly polytheistic belief based society.
One thing to note that in those polytheistic religion , YHWH was considered a lesser God.

But we see that lasser God YHWH speaking in Genesis narrative.

Poetry in scripture shows Yahweh was originally a warrior storm deity, thousands of goddess figurines as well as other temple construction show he was paired with Ashera the goddess.

Considered by polytheistic Canaan.

Then you have YHWH in Biblical narrative totally oposite and in different role.

The Biblical Yahweh is a much later creation.

True , but irrelevant

The funny thing is that you have a very strange appearance of a man called Yeshua who considered himself to be that YHWH.

I'm going by archaeologist William Dever, and Fransesca Stavrakopoulou and Dr Baden.

This is valid , np.

 

[Dimi95]

It's a fascinating subject, I agree. The cave art spans a good deal of time, most of it dating from 14,000 to 40,000 years ago. The oldest representational picture is a pig drawn in red ochre about 45,000 years ago, but if you expand the search to abstract drawings, the oldest known is that of a hashtag from about 73,000 years ago. Some of these drawing are not homo sapiens, but neanderthal.

This is also fascinating

They were creating markings and coloring for their own purposes but they were doing so using recognized techniques. The Blombos hashtag shows us thag they were able to apply similar design to multiple media.

When you look at the year difference between the 'Pig Art' and the hashtag , it is clear evidence of evolution of human consciousness.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Some doctors are better than others.

True, but it has absolutely NOTHING to do with their ethnicity.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I understand. I'll have to find someone expert either in the field of art in terms of cave art or dating processes. Maybe that would be anthropology.

Yes, anthropology. And anthropologists have their specialties as well. I think what you need is a Cultural Anthropologist.

 

[Trailblazer]

That’s what I’ve been both learning and teaching for 50 years …!

Carry on sir. It is an important mission.

 

[Soapy]

You have been learning and teaching that the Bible teaches things that you disagree with and so is wrong and has been changed by Christians.
IOW you put your ideas ahead of the Bible.

Oh Brian2, is this an unthought out attempt at getting back at me for outing you? It didn’t work - what I teach is what the Bible teaches so I am not EQUAL to the Bible like you say that because Jesus is LIKE GOD then he IS GOD!!

Brian2, your defence get weaker every post you make. But then I know your belief is made up and there is not a sin for other person who supports you let slone scriptures to support on your ongoing question for nonsense.

Jesus IS called ‘YHWH’ AFTER he takes his seat in Heaven. ‘YHWH’ means: “He who is a constant; He who changes not, He who IS…!’, Jesus becomes IMMORTAL, which is, NOT SUBJECT TO CHANGE.

Tell me I am wrong…
I learnt that from the scriptures…
Tell me the scriptures are wrong on that issue!!!!

 

[Soapy]

Of course you know that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God and the Son of Man. So why are you denying it?
Mark 14:61,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,“Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62“I am,” said Jesus,................................................
Matt 16:16 Simon Peter said, . “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus said to him, “Simon, son of Jonah, you are happy because you did not learn this from man. My Father in heaven has shown you this.

BRIAN2, post me a verse where JESUS says that from his own mouth!!!

‘Son’ of the blessed one. Who is that ‘Blessed One’? What is a ‘Son’, to you in reference to the spiritual?