Why so much wickedness and suffering ?

[Pegg]

How do you figure?

After all, these polling methods are able to accurately predict votes in Presidential elections.

the survey sample is too small.

It could be a coincidence that the people they contacted just happened to be of a particular view.

 

[Riverwolf]

All a 'state church' really means is the political parties of that country have favoured the most popular religion and have included that particular religion in its political decision making because the majority of people support it.

Or did at one time. That doesn't necessarily reflect the current state of affairs.

the survey sample is too small.

It could be a coincidence that the people they contacted just happened to be of a particular view.

Sure, it could be, but the best way to determine the likelihood of such a coincidence occurring would be to analyze the exact method of polling used, which goes far beyond the simple sample size. It also involves the types of people surveyed, with a variety of considerations.

Furthermore, the country's census may not be any more reliable, since officially "belonging" to the State Church doesn't say anything about the person's own beliefs.

 

[Bunyip]

The papers are reporting today that Iceland is in mourning.

For the first time in Icelandic history, a person was killed by the police.

 

[Skwim]

No, I think you're the one straining. I've given an example as to why Evil is not appropriate and doesn't fit, And you still reject it and if I can be honest very quickly and seemingly without thorough consideration.

I am quite aware of why the "evil" we speak of is not appropriate within your belief structure. Plain and simple, it upsets the apple cart.

Even if it is translated into the English definition of Evil (Which it is not) it wouldn't change anything for me,

I know, because for your religious beliefs to remain in harmony it simply cannot be right. No ifs, ands, or buts. It must be rejected no matter how logical it may be. I understand your situation quite well. It's very common among committed Christians, particularly the fundies. "I caaant heeeeaaarrr youuuuuuuu."

But apparently it's desperately needed ammo for you.

I have no fight here. If you need to believe in foolishness go right ahead, just don't try selling it those who know better. You want to pitch your tent among heathens go right ahead, just don't think your message will go unchallenged.

Well you seem like the common Anti-Theist, But I don't hold it against you. I can practically taste your agenda, But I keep my comments respectful and engaging nonetheless.

Taste it, can you. Hmmmm. Just as a matter of information, what, exactly, do you see as my agenda?
That aside, I do grant that you've been fairly respectful and pretty nice about the whole thing. Nice, but wrong.

You don't have to listen to me, But I'd appreciate it if you actually did some research into the side you don't agree with. You'll probably say you have, But I don't really think so.

I haven't done much research other than to look into the claims you and others have made, and so far they haven't amounted to anything close to convincing. What most boil down to is, " X isn't Y because it's not in accord with my beliefs."

The research that I have done seems solid, And that is why I debate the meaning.

But your research doesn't amount to anything. All you've said is that there are other interpretations you prefer. Which, while no doubt is comforting, isn't any kind of argument.

You seem to debate it because you want it to be so, Not because you believe it.

Believe me; I truly believe everything I've said. However, as an agnostic I have no stake in the correctness or incorrectness of the Bible. What I do enjoy is pointing out the flaws in religious beliefs that are paraded around as infallible or at least worthy of my consideration. I've considered Christianity over quite a few years, and find it woefully unconvincing. I just can't muster the faith to blot out its short comings.

 

[Willamena]

Why, then, is there so much wickedness and suffering? One reason is that mankind in general has rejected God as Ruler, not wanting to submit to his righteous laws and principles. Humans have unwittingly submitted to God’s Adversary, Satan, for “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19) Knowledge of this fact makes it easier to understand why bad situations exist. Satan is evil, hateful, deceptive, and cruel. So we should expect the world to reflect the personality of its ruler. No wonder there is so much wickedness!

For some, god has more significance than "ruler."

 

[Thana]

I am quite aware of why the "evil" we speak of is not appropriate within your belief structure. Plain and simple, it upsets the apple cart.

I know, because for your religious beliefs to remain in harmony it simply cannot be right. No ifs, ands, or buts. It must be rejected no matter how logical it may be. I understand your situation quite well. It's very common among committed Christians, particularly the fundies. "I caaant heeeeaaarrr youuuuuuuu."

I'm a Non-Denominational Christian, and I like to think that we're the laid-back kind of Christians. My beliefs vary, Change over time and are open to new information. Besides, I acknowledge God as Creator of all. That includes Evil, But that is not what that verse meant and I stick by that not because I desperately need too, But because it's what makes sense. By the by, I'm about as far from a fundamentalist as one can get. Homosexuality, Evolution, Abortion, Freedom from Religion and Feminism, All things I accept and even advocate.

I have no fight here. If you need to believe in foolishness go right ahead, just don't try selling it those who know better. You want to pitch your tent among heathens go right ahead, just don't think your message will go unchallenged.

Ah, You say that but I don't think it's true. You're pretty passionate, So I'm not buying it.

Taste it, can you. Hmmmm. Just as a matter of information, what, exactly, do you see as my agenda?
That aside, I do grant that you've been fairly respectful and pretty nice about the whole thing. Nice, but wrong.

Mmm, Well what is every Anti-Theists agenda?

I haven't done much research other than to look into the claims you and others have made, and so far they haven't amounted to anything close to convincing. What most boil down to is, " X isn't Y because it's not in accord with my beliefs."

That's not a very convincing argument on your side, Because honestly you're the one who sounds like " X isn't Y because it's not in accord with my beliefs"

But your research doesn't amount to anything. All you've said is that there are other interpretations you prefer. Which, while no doubt is comforting, isn't any kind of argument.

Not preference, But reasonable and logical conclusions.
Honestly, What would you prefer? Me being right, Or you being right?
Your own preference is something to think about, I reckon.

Believe me; I truly believe everything I've said. However, as an agnostic I have no stake in the correctness or incorrectness of the Bible. What I do enjoy is pointing out the flaws in religious beliefs that are paraded around as infallible or at least worthy of my consideration. I've considered Christianity over quite a few years, and find it woefully unconvincing. I just can't muster the faith to blot out its short comings.

Mm, maybe.
Though I think people who say they don't have a stake in something are usually lying.
If the truth of it didn't matter somewhat to you, I doubt you'd be debating scripture with me now

 

[Riverwolf]

I know, because for your religious beliefs to remain in harmony it simply cannot be right. No ifs, ands, or buts. It must be rejected no matter how logical it may be. I understand your situation quite well. It's very common among committed Christians, particularly the fundies. "I caaant heeeeaaarrr youuuuuuuu."

It's equally as common among the anti-theist crowd, who are as uneducated about matters of religion as fundies are about the sciences.

 

[Skwim]

Ah, You say that but I don't think it's true. You're pretty passionate, So I'm not buying it.

Only to the point of putting my point across. And don't confuse passion with fight.

Mmm, Well what is every Anti-Theists agenda?

Don't know. I'm just anti-Christian-nonsense.

That's not a very convincing argument on your side, Because honestly you're the one who sounds like " X isn't Y because it's not in accord with my beliefs"

Maybe that's because I wasn't making an argument, but simply explaining what I saw.

Not preference, But reasonable and logical conclusions.
Honestly, What would you prefer? Me being right, Or you being right?
Your own preference is something to think about, I reckon.

I prefer that the truth will out, and so far it favors my side.

Mm, maybe.
Though I think people who say they don't have a stake in something are usually lying.

Think away.

If the truth of it didn't matter somewhat to you, I doubt you'd be debating. scripture with me now

And as I just said above, the truth does matter.

It's equally as common among the anti-theist crowd, who are as uneducated about matters of religion as fundies are about the sciences.

Bold statement. Care to back it up with good evidence?

Bold statement. Care to back it up with good evidence?

 

[Thana]

Only to the point of putting my point across. And don't confuse passion with fight.

Don't know. I'm just anti-Christian-nonsense.

Maybe that's because I wasn't making an argument, but simply explaining what I saw.

I prefer that the truth will out, and so far it favors my side.

Think away.

Well I see you ignored my first reply, I imagine it's because it doesn't mesh with your idea of what Christians are supposed to be.

You also haven't presented anything that agrees with you or puts up a reasonable argument in favor of your opinion. So I'm just going to assume you're arguing for the sake of it and don't really have anything more to contribute.

Unless you wish to prove me wrong with actual evidence instead of sentiment?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Why, then, is there so much wickedness and suffering? One reason is that mankind in general has rejected God as Ruler, not wanting to submit to his righteous laws and principles. Humans have unwittingly submitted to God’s Adversary, Satan, for “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19) Knowledge of this fact makes it easier to understand why bad situations exist. Satan is evil, hateful, deceptive, and cruel. So we should expect the world to reflect the personality of its ruler. No wonder there is so much wickedness!

For a slightly different angle on this...
Can you name a time when there wasn't wickedness and suffering? Pick a year.

There is an inherent assumption here that 'wicked' and 'suffering' are not normal in the world. They are (of course) not desirable, but they are normal.
People going out of their way to help others is also normal. Charity, normal. Peace, normal.

I'd be interested on how and why a focus on one aspect of the world is satisfying.

 

[Sunstone]

For a slightly different angle on this...
Can you name a time when there wasn't wickedness and suffering? Pick a year.

There is an inherent assumption here that 'wicked' and 'suffering' are not normal in the world. They are (of course) not desirable, but they are normal.
People going out of their way to help others is also normal. Charity, normal. Peace, normal.

I'd be interested on how and why a focus on one aspect of the world is satisfying.

Spot on! The world is much more complex than can be adequately summarized as either evil or good.

 

[Skwim]

Well I see you ignored my first reply, I imagine it's because it doesn't mesh with your idea of what Christians are supposed to be.

Didn't see anything germane to the issue to bother with.

You also haven't presented anything that agrees with you or puts up a reasonable argument in favor of your opinion. So I'm just going to assume you're arguing for the sake of it and don't really have anything more to contribute.

I've said all that's pertinent. That you've chosen to discount it is your choice.

Unless you wish to prove me wrong with actual evidence instead of sentiment?

You're committed to indulging your needs at the expense of reason, a concession I seen many times before. And in as much as all our cards are on the table and because I don't find it constructive to rehash old evidence/arguments I prefer to move on to more fruitful discussions.

 

[Thana]

You're committed to indulging your needs at the expense of reason, a concession I seen many times before. And in as much as all our cards are on the table and because I don't find it constructive to rehash old evidence/arguments I prefer to move on to more fruitful discussions.

You've surprised me, I didn't realize you were so.. blinded. I've given you evidence, I've given you reasonable arguments and I've shown that Evil meaning Evil doesn't change anything for me so I have no bias but you evidently do. I don't know why you're so adamant though. Does it really matter so much that it means Evil? Does it shake your understanding of Christianity that much?

Oh well, No matter, Enjoy your more fruitful discussions

 

[ejalfa]

For a slightly different angle on this...
Can you name a time when there wasn't wickedness and suffering? Pick a year.

There is an inherent assumption here that 'wicked' and 'suffering' are not normal in the world. They are (of course) not desirable, but they are normal.
People going out of their way to help others is also normal. Charity, normal. Peace, normal.

I'd be interested on how and why a focus on one aspect of the world is satisfying.

Yes...there was no wickedness before Adam and Eve sinned.

 

[McBell]

Yes...there was no wickedness before Adam and Eve sinned.

How do you know?

 

[Riverwolf]

Yes...there was no wickedness before Adam and Eve sinned.

So the Serpent was a good guy after all?

 

[ejalfa]

How do you know?

The Bible tells me so.....

 

[ejalfa]

So the Serpent was a good guy after all?

No....the serpent was not a good guy it was merely a serpent that the devil used to deceive Eve. The devil he is the one that caused all the problems.

 

[ejalfa]

For some, god has more significance than "ruler."

God is also the creator of heaven and earth and all things good !
In Him no evil exists.

 

[ejalfa]

Fair enough.

Why does god allow all the wickedness and evil?

He will soon put an end to all evil in the very near future !
We are now living in the last days. 2Timoty 3 1-5.
Why does He allow evil ?
Because Adam and Eve partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Only God new what evil was up to that point.
The devil said if they partook of it's fruit they would be like God knowing both good and evil.
And so it came to be.....