Why some people believe god doesn't exist?

[Looncall]

The universe does things without knowing it. This is what I would consider will without consciousness. I'm partial to the term wu wei which means non-action or non-doing.

The universe has properties that lead to events happening. Nothing mystical about it. All this anthropomorphizing is just ancient error.

This is the modern era. Surely we no longer need to ascribe volition to everything that happens.

 

[Gui10]

When I ask a religious person ''Where did God come from?'', they is one answer they always give me: ''He was always there.''. Ok well, from a purely logical standpoint, what gives you the right to say he was always there but dismiss my idea that the universe was always there?

 

[chinu]

When I ask a religious person ''Where did God come from?'', they is one answer they always give me: ''He was always there.''. Ok well, from a purely logical standpoint, what gives you the right to say he was always there but dismiss my idea that the universe was always there?

But my answer is something different.

Actually, God came from another God, but I don't think universe came from another universe.

 

[idav]

The universe has properties that lead to events happening. Nothing mystical about it. All this anthropomorphizing is just ancient error.

This is the modern era. Surely we no longer need to ascribe volition to everything that happens.

Will and volition are part of the chain of cause and effect. If anything we are anthropomorphizing ourselves when we are really the same type of cause and effect as the rest of the universe. The universe does and in turn we do.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Will and volition are part of the chain of cause and effect. If anything we are anthropomorphizing ourselves when we are really the same type of cause and effect as the rest of the universe. The universe does and in turn we do.

I was reading this article on Quantum physics and trust me I didn't understand it so I can fully be off base.

But with our understanding of quantum physics growing our concept of Cause and Effect is appear more and more faulty on a universal level.

 

[idav]

I was reading this article on Quantum physics and trust me I didn't understand it so I can fully be off base.

But with our understanding of quantum physics growing our concept of Cause and Effect is appear more and more faulty on a universal level.

As I have been looking more into Quantum Physics I am finding that matter isn't necessarily indeterministic. The probability is real and the potential for parallel realities is there but at the end of the day only one path is taken and is deterministic. The first cause would be the only place free will is possible but alas this is the universe that came to be.

 

[ScienceGod]

How can you possibly believe in something that you have absolutely no evidence of?
What makes it even worse is that with multiple religions god is viewed differently so there is no continuity between these religions.
If the universe was created by energy say for example atoms colliding or whatever, it can be described as god by religious types when it is actually science/nature.
Religion to me appears as something to give people a purpose or a reason to be on planet earth, these people cannot grasp the possibility that we are a consequence of science and evolution and they long for the after life.

I find this quite disturbing really

 

[ScienceGod]

The universe has properties that lead to events happening. Nothing mystical about it. All this anthropomorphizing is just ancient error.

This is the modern era. Surely we no longer need to ascribe volition to everything that happens.

I agree looncall but you cannot blame people believing these things when they did not have the technology and knowledge to explore and discover like we do today. Some things still appear mystical but there is always an explanation.

 

[Looncall]

Will and volition are part of the chain of cause and effect. If anything we are anthropomorphizing ourselves when we are really the same type of cause and effect as the rest of the universe. The universe does and in turn we do.

Only those chains that involve entities capable of volition.

If a stone rolls downhill, no volition is involved.

This notion of a conscious universe seems to me to be a category error and a sort of latent animism.

 

[captainbryce]

I never argued that such a thing couldn't exist...

Fair enough. But surely, you are aware that many atheists do in fact ask the question "Who created God" as a means to prove that an eternal being is not consistent with logic. I just wanted to make sure that we are both clear that this is not a valid argument if you assume that the universe CAN be eternal.

I said if God can exist eternally, then by the same logic, why can't anything else (say, the universe)?

By that logic, it COULD. The problem is, by scientific, deductive logic, it cannot. Because our scientific measurements confirm an expanding universe, radiating outward (galaxies moving away from each other), for the past 13.7 billion years. The universe definitely had a beginning.

Check out the following link. This is what your fellow atheists have to say about that: http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=7659

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Fair enough. But surely, you are aware that many atheists do in fact ask the question "Who created God" as a means to prove that an eternal being is not consistent with logic. I just wanted to make sure that we are both clear that this is not a valid argument if you assume that the universe CAN be eternal.

By that logic, it COULD. The problem is, by scientific, deductive logic, it cannot. Because our scientific measurements confirm an expanding universe, radiating outward (galaxies moving away from each other), for the past 13.7 billion years. The universe definitely had a beginning.

Check out the following link. This is what your fellow atheists have to say about that: Did the Universe Begin from a Singularity?

The fact that the universe is expanding says nothing about whether or not it had a beginning. I don't see where you could possibly draw a definite conclusion given only that information.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Fair enough. But surely, you are aware that many atheists do in fact ask the question "Who created God" as a means to prove that an eternal being is not consistent with logic.

That argument is used when theists say everything MUST have a source. I have used it multiple times. Then it inevitably goes to "God doesn't need a source, but everything else does." Why is God the only thing that can exist without a source?

 

[captainbryce]

The fact that the universe is expanding says nothing about whether or not it had a beginning. I don't see where you could possibly draw a definite conclusion given only that information.

It's not ONLY that information that the leading cosmologists and astrophysicists are going off of. In any case, they (many of which are atheists) seem to strongly disagree with you, so perhaps you should be taking this up with them? Though, it might help if you have advanced degrees in physics and astronomy first, before you make this argument.

 

[captainbryce]

That argument is used when theists say everything MUST have a source. I have used it multiple times. Then it inevitably goes to "God doesn't need a source, but everything else does." Why is God the only thing that can exist without a source?

Because a supernatural, eternal force that exists beyond space-time wouldn't require another external source (and by definition SHOULDN'T have one because it is outside of space-time). It IS the source of everything! But from a scientific standpoint, a naturally evolving, expanding and decaying universe WOULD require a source or catalyst that exists outside of space-time. According to the second law of thermodynamics, the universe is in a constant state of decay. With a finite amount of matter and energy in the fabric of space-time, this would mean that the universe had to have "started" in a specific state, and progressively decays. Universal expansion shows that the universe was much hotter in the past, and it is getting colder and colder.

Do you believe in the Big Bang?

 

[allah lover]

Let me explain:

I'm not against science. I love it.

And in Quran it tells people to seek science and think logically lots and lots of times.

I don't know what gave you the idea about me and science.

 

[allah lover]

But science doesn't say it comes from nowhere....

I didn't say science does.

I said if YOU think that it comes from nowhere, then you have little to build up any kind of science.

And yes the science we have hasn't say that funny thing that world comes from nowhere.

 

[philbo]

But from a scientific standpoint, a naturally evolving, expanding and decaying universe WOULD require a source or catalyst that exists outside of space-time.

A "god of the gaps" argument by any other name.. You're making an unwarranted assertion: the scientific standpoint would be "we don't know, and there is no evidence for a source or catalyst existing outside of space-time". There is no "would require", especially one in capital letters.

Do you believe in the Big Bang?

It seems like the most likely explanation for the universe being the way we observe it; however, if we were to discover some kind of central Galactic Pump issuing new galaxies into the void and causing everything to expand, I'd be happy to change my view with changing evidence.

Prof. Hawking asserts (in "Universe in a Nutshell") that in singularities and at the point of the big bang, the natural laws we know and are beginning to understand break down - they do not apply; without these laws, we have no way of knowing what might have been during, let alone before (or even if there was a "before", given that space-time as we understand it didn't exist) the (or possibly "a") big bang.

 

[allah lover]

Well, sure. Don't we all wish the world were at least a little bit different in some ways?

Maybe. but again what if it's not possible.

And if you study Islam a lot of your questions about THIS world will be answered and maybe you wouldn't want a lot of changes in it.

Maybe a world where there is no anencephaly? Or where pregnancy only occurs when a couple actually loves each other and is emotionally prepared to deal with the birth of a new child? Or where it is not really possible to feel oblivious and callous towards the suffering of others?

Again I would say study Islam. You will know the purposes behind these matters.

If we are allowing for the possibility of a supremely good, all-powerful, all-wise creator God the we must answer why a better world did not come to be, don't we?

Same thing.(Study Islam and think about the only possible world)

What about those hypothetical worlds?

I didn't get you here.

Even taking for granted that no other world is possible, it is still all to clear that this is indeed an imperfect world - often a tragically imperfect one.

Wouldn't a perfect world have, for starters, a lot less war and famine?

Again I have to ask you to study Islam. You will find your answers then.(I got these questions unanswered before too)

there is lots and lots of philosophical books in my language out there, discussing issues like these.( written by Muslim philosophers)

Find out if they have been translated to English.

I suggest reading Morteza Motahari books. See if his books have been translated or not.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Do you believe in the Big Bang?

Not really... I think it makes more sense than a god, but I hesitate to call it the truth. The truth is that we don't know.

 

[Looncall]

Maybe. but again what if it's not possible.

And if you study Islam a lot of your questions about THIS world will be answered and maybe you wouldn't want a lot of changes in it.



Again I would say study Islam. You will know the purposes behind these matters.



Same thing.(Study Islam and think about the only possible world)



I didn't get you here.




Again I have to ask you to study Islam. You will find your answers then.(I got these questions unanswered before too)

there is lots and lots of philosophical books in my language out there, discussing issues like these.( written by Muslim philosophers)

Find out if they have been translated to English.

I suggest reading Morteza Motahari books. See if his books have been translated or not.

I would rather convinces other to not study islam. There might be fewer howling mobs in the world.