Why the lie?

[McBell]

In light of the Scriptures above, how do you think Jesus feels about people who do such evil things in His name?

It is hard to tell.
But in order to answer there must be a number of "ifs" involved.

For example:

IF Jesus is in fact God
and
IF God is truly never changing
and
IF we are to believe the OT
​

then I fail to see how Jesus would be against wiping out those who believe differently.

 

[Kcnorwood]

it was an ingenious and peaceful way of supplanting the old religions with the new one, put them on at the same time as the old one and it makes it even easier to convert people ,if you do not try and destroy everything about their old religion, but just blend it into yours

Peaceful? Sure I guess it was after that got tired of hunting people down. Granted it was more secular courts that did this. Still doesn't sound like they had much faith in thier own God, to just let people come to them under thier own power. I do not believe that thousands of Pagans were killed during the middle ages. Even if only one was killed that was one to many. The Roman church was not the only ones who did this. The Protestant Reformation agreed that Witches were evil & deserved to die.
Who ever translated the bible some how got the word Witch & they went with it. The Witch- phobic King James like some Christians today loved how this translation gave them the Ammunition to justify thier hate.

 

[Kcnorwood]

I understand that people who called themselves Christians did terrible things, but Jesus never condoned this kind of behavior.

And the bible also says Thou shall not suffer a Witch to live. Would not that be his words as well? How do you know without a doubt that they didn't not believe in Jesus & God just as much as you did? Perhaps more. Or perhaps your saying that Cahtolics are not real Christians.

 

[kai]

Peaceful? Sure I guess it was after that got tired of hunting people down. Granted it was more secular courts that did this. Still doesn't sound like they had much faith in thier own God, to just let people come to them under thier own power. I do not believe that thousands of Pagans were killed during the middle ages. Even if only one was killed that was one to many. The Roman church was not the only ones who did this. The Protestant Reformation agreed that Witches were evil & deserved to die.
Who ever translated the bible some how got the word Witch & they went with it. The Witch- phobic King Jmaes like some Christians today loved how this translation gave them the Ammunition to justify thier hate.

i was thinking along the lines of 3rd to 4th century Britain by the time we get to king James Christianity had been on his island some 12 or 13 hundred years, so the festivals were already long christianised as for the subject of "witches" this is interesting.

Malleus Maleficarum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Troublemane]

The catholic church is supposed to be the inheritor of both the leadership of the pagan faiths, through the office of 'pontifex maximus' which was given to the bishop of rome after the emperor gratian decided to give up the title; and the christian faith, through a tradition of ordination via 'laying on of hands' traced back (purportedly) to the apostle Peter. It is by this tradition they claim authority over the pagan faiths. its why the catholic tradition also includes saints that were once pagan gods, and observes holy days that belonged to other faiths. its why its called the 'catholic church', meaning 'universal'; but their goal is to make it universal under christ.

..whatever it takes.

 

[Dunemeister]

This thread is sounding more and more like sour grapes.

 

[Troublemane]

No dude this is what Sour Grapes sounds like. :angel2:

YouTube - Sour Grapes

 

[Kcnorwood]

This thread is sounding more and more like sour grapes.

I think part of your & my problem is we've been talking about two different time periods again.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

It is hard to tell.
But in order to answer there must be a number of "ifs" involved.

For example:

IF Jesus is in fact God
and
IF God is truly never changing
and
IF we are to believe the OT
​

then I fail to see how Jesus would be against wiping out those who believe differently.

I don't thing it's Jesus who will be doing the wiping out. I think it's the Father who deals with the bitter end.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

And the bible also says Thou shall not suffer a Witch to live. Would not that be his words as well? How do you know without a doubt that they didn't not believe in Jesus & God just as much as you did? Perhaps more. Or perhaps your saying that Cahtolics are not real Christians.

Jesus changed many things that applied to the OT. The point is Jesus said follow Him and he wasn't a leader that supported violence and neither did the Apostles or the NT for that matter.

 

[sojourner]

Lie? A lie only occurs when an attempt is made to subvert the truth for personal motives. In the case of translation, the tradition has been preserved, "right" or "wrong," in order to document the truth inherent in the culture, not in order to promote a certain moral standard that would politically benefit the Church.

In the case of holidays, the Church simply "Christianized" holidays that were already celebrated, giving them a new meaning that spoke to the new religion. That's not a lie, it's a shift in paradigm.

I think labeling these things as "lies" puts an unrealistic spin on them, and on the motives of the Church.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

In the case of holidays, the Church simply "Christianized" holidays that were already celebrated, giving them a new meaning that spoke to the new religion. That's not a lie, it's a shift in paradigm.

Nicely said!

 

[crystalonyx]

Nobody actually knows the date of Jesus' birth. Even the year is disputed.

.....?

Most likely because never existed, except in the stories of the NT.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Most likely because never existed, except in the stories of the NT.

Rubbish.

 

[Kcnorwood]

Lie? A lie only occurs when an attempt is made to subvert the truth for personal motives. In the case of translation, the tradition has been preserved, "right" or "wrong," in order to document the truth inherent in the culture, not in order to promote a certain moral standard that would politically benefit the Church.

Don't you mean thier truth?


In the case of holidays, the Church simply "Christianized" holidays that were already celebrated, giving them a new meaning that spoke to the new religion. That's not a lie, it's a shift in paradigm.

It wasn't there holidays to begin with & to say it was, was wrong.


I think labeling these things as "lies" puts an unrealistic spin on them, and on the motives of the Church.

Perhaps but they went & changed things like they had a right too.

 

[McBell]

I don't thing it's Jesus who will be doing the wiping out. I think it's the Father who deals with the bitter end.

like I said: IF Jesus and and God are one AND IF they are never changing AND IF they are the same deity from the Old Testament, then your reply quoted here makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

like I said: IF Jesus and and God are one AND IF they are never changing AND IF they are the same deity from the Old Testament, then your reply quoted here makes absolutely no sense.

Biblically speaking, God is quite merciful if you accept His mercy. Sounds fair to me even if I do not fully understand His rules.

 

[sojourner]

Don't you mean thier truth?

I mean truth, as they perceived it.

It wasn't there holidays to begin with & to say it was, was wrong.

I never said that the holidays were Christian to begin with. The holidays were pagan to begin with. But, then, again, so were the people who came to be Christian. As they changed, their holidays changed with them, and so remained pertinent to the society.

Perhaps but they went & changed things like they had a right too.

Of course they had a right to. The holidays were their holidays. They could do what they wished with them.

 

[Kcnorwood]

I mean truth, as they perceived it.

I never said that the holidays were Christian to begin with. The holidays were pagan to begin with. But, then, again, so were the people who came to be Christian. As they changed, their holidays changed with them, and so remained pertinent to the society.

Of course they had a right to. The holidays were their holidays. They could do what they wished with them.

Um no.....:no: Perhaps you feel that way as a Christian but then did not. They went & changed things because they were power hungry & for no other reason.

 

[Dunemeister]

Um no.....:no: Perhaps you feel that way as a Christian but then did not. They went & changed things because they were power hungry & for no other reason.

Power hungry? Absolutely not! It was in the interest of pastoral care, and a belief that God was redeeming the world that led Christians to redeem pagan festivals and shift their focus from idols and natural forces to the creator.

I appreciate that you don't buy the metaphysic involved here. But it's simply crass and flat wrong to accuse the Church of going on a power trip when they were adapting pagan holidays.