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Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Rival said:
This intro literally reads:

Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him,
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The King of Tyre was influenced by the devil. If someone doesn't have God in their life, they are more likely to listen to lies from the enemy.
 
Rival

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Skywalker said:
The King of Tyre was influenced by the devil. If someone doesn't have God in their life, they are more likely to listen to lies from the enemy.
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The Pharaoh in the Joseph story didn't have your God in his life but he and Potiphar are clearly portrayed as good folks who help Joseph. It's not ever as simple as you are making it out.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Rival said:
The Pharaoh in the Joseph story didn't have your God in his life but he and Potiphar are clearly portrayed as good folks who help Joseph. It's not ever as simple as you are making it out.
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2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
 
Rival

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Skywalker said:
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
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This has nothing to do with what I said.

Also, I must be blind as a bat in that case. Still, I'd rather be blind than Christian.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Rival said:
This has nothing to do with what I said.

Also, I must be blind as a bat in that case. Still, I'd rather be blind than Christian.
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I never said that everything that unbelievers do has demonic influence but I believe that a lot of intellectual objections to the gospel are spiritual in nature.
 
Rival

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Skywalker said:
I never said that everything that unbelievers do has demonic influence but I believe that a lot of intellectual objections to the gospel are spiritual in nature.
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So if I said your objections to Egyptian Paganism are spiritual in nature and you're listening to demonic influences would you take me seriously? At all?
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
dybmh said:
Which is a more accurate description? Fallen angel or evil spirit?
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Fallen angels are evil spirits. Are demons and fallen angels the same thing?

Are demons and fallen angels the same thing?
The Bible clearly speaks of demons or evil spirits, but what are they? Are demons fallen angels?

Perhaps the clearest answer can be found in Revelation 12:9: "And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." This verse states Satan is the devil and the serpent from Genesis 3. He was thrown down to earth with his "angels." The evil spirits or demons described in the Bible appear to be angels who joined Satan in his rebellion against God.

Another helpful passage is found in Matthew 25:41. Jesus teaches, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Those with the devil are called angels, the same beings called demons or evil spirits in other passages. Therefore, we can conclude demons are fallen angels.

When did these angels "fall"? The timing of their fall is not made exactly clear in the Bible. However, some indications are given. For example, Satan appears in the form of a serpent to Eve in Genesis 3. Since demons are fallen angels who joined Satan when he rebelled, they must have fallen prior to the events in Genesis 3. Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 also mention Satan's fall as a past event.

In fact, it is most likely that this fall occurred shortly before the temptation in the Garden of Eden. Satan would have wasted little time after leaving God's presence to tempt those made in God's image. The best answer is that some angels became demons or fallen angels sometime between God's creation of the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:1 and the temptation in Genesis 3.

During the time of Jesus on earth, much activity took place by demons. Still today, many reports are made of activities by evil spirits. Ephesians 6:12 clearly teaches our battle is against spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Demonic spirits will continue to operate during the judgment of the tribulation period as well.

However, demonic activity will be defeated at the return of Christ at the Battle of Armageddon (Revelation 19:17-21). After the 1,000-year millennial kingdom, there will be one final battle at which Christ and those with Him will defeat Satan and those with him for good (Revelation 20). The curse will end and a new heaven and earth will be created where all of God's people will dwell with Him forever.
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S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Rival said:
But if I said the only reason you don't is not actually intellectual you're just spiritually blind, would that mean anything to you?
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I believe that people have intellectual objections to the gospel but saying that someone is spiritually blind would be name calling.
 
Rival

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Skywalker said:
I believe that people have intellectual objections to the gospel but saying that someone is spiritually blind would be name calling.
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Alright, so saying we're influenced by demons is fine but 'spiritually blind' is a step too far....

o_O
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Rival said:
Alright, so saying we're influenced by demons is fine but 'spiritually blind' is a step too far....

o_O
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I never said that anyone is influenced by demons I said that I believe intellectual objections have a spiritual component to them. I believe that Ezekiel 28 talked about the King of Tyre influencing Satan because evil spirits tempt people.
 
Rival

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Skywalker said:
I never said that anyone is influenced by demons I said that I believe intellectual objections have a spiritual component to them. I believe that Ezekiel 28 talked about the King of Tyre influencing Satan because evil spirits tempt people.
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Except Satan isn't in that passage.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Rival said:
Except Satan isn't in that passage.
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No human being was in God's holy mountain or near God's throne and the King of Tyre wasn't created sinless like Adam and Eve were. Is Ezekiel Speaking of Satan or the King of Tyre?

4. Was In God's Holy Mountain

The statement here refers to the dwelling place of God - His visible glory. This angel was in the immediate presence of the Lord.

5. Walked In The Midst Of Stones Of Fire

The stones of fire seem to speak of the nearness to God's throne. When Moses brought Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and seventy of the elders up to Mount Sinai to see God's presence, we read the following.

And they saw the God of Israel; and there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and as it were the very heaven for clearness. And the appearance of the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel (Exodus 24:10,17).

This description could be the same as the stones of fire in Ezekiel. If so, it would indicate the nearness this angel had to the throne of God.

6. Perfect In All His Ways Until His Fall

The perfection of this creature is again stressed. There was no defect in him until he chose to sin. He, like everything God created, was perfect.
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Harel13

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Skywalker said:
When Saul became a follower of Jesus, his name was changed to Paul. When Lucifer rebelled, his name was changed to Satan.
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Oh, now I get it. When you become evil, you get a name change. So when Saul turned his back on his faith, heritage and people, he became Paul. When Lucifer fell (stupidly, as we've concluded), he became Satan. And when Anakin turned to the dark side, he became Darth Vader.
 
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