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Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Harel13 said:
Oh, now I get it. When you become evil, you get a name change. So when Saul turned his back on his faith, heritage and people, he became Paul. When Lucifer fell (stupidly, as we've concluded), he became Satan. And when Anakin turned to the dark side, he became Darth Vader.
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Lucifer and Satan are the same spirit. Jesus Knows the Pain of Betrayal More than Anyone – Counseling One Another

Betrayal began in the Garden of Eden. Actually, technically speaking, betrayal began in the angelic realm first—when Lucifer rebelled against God, and took an army of angels with him. Lucifer, the most glorious of all the angels whom God created, became prideful and fell. He betrayed God. Betrayed his Creator. So his name was changed to Satan. Lucifer, the bearer of light, became Satan, the prince of darkness.

  • In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. He filled them with all good things.
  • Then God created man and woman in His image. He commanded them to be fruitful and multiply. And He planted them in the garden to care for it and keep it.
  • There in the garden God walked with man and woman in perfect harmony of relationship.
  • But someone else was in the garden, too. An intruder entered the picture. Satan, the deceiver, the enemy of God moved in closer.
  • He deceived Adam and Eve. They listened to his lies, failed to resist temptation, and sinned.
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S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Harel13 said:
So you disagree with what you quoted earlier, right?
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Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9 never say that Jewish people are of the synagogue of Satan for not believing in Jesus. What is the synagogue of Satan in Revelation? | GotQuestions.org

The majority of the persecution the New Testament church faced came from the Jewish community. Even most of the Roman persecution was an effort to appease the Jewish authorities. This is true of Pilate’s condemnation of Jesus (John 19:1–16) and Paul’s imprisonment by the Roman governors Felix (Acts 24:27) and Festus (Acts 25:16). This pattern held true throughout the Roman world in the first century. As long as Christians were considered a sect of Judaism, they were exempt from the required observance of certain aspects of Roman state religion. However, as Christians were expelled from synagogues and denounced by the Jewish leadership, Rome began to see Christianity as a new religion that did not have these same exemptions. Therefore, Christians outside the protective umbrella of the synagogue were open to Roman persecution.

The synagogue of Satan say they are Jews (the people of God), and they persecute those who believe in Jesus the Messiah (the true people of God). In reality, by rejecting the Jewish Messiah, they have renounced their status as “true” Jews, and that is why Jesus calls them “liars.” This distinction between ethnic Jews and faithful Jews is also seen in Romans 9:6 (“Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel”) and Romans 2:28–29 (“For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter”). By their persecution of the true people of God, these unbelieving Jews had become a synagogue of Satan—a gathering of people who were actually following the devil’s priorities.
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S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Harel13 said:
So you do agree with what you quoted. Heavy antisemitic stuff, I must say.
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Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9 never say that Jews are of the synagogue of Satan for not believing in Christ. What is the synagogue of Satan in Revelation? | GotQuestions.org

Internet searches of “synagogue of Satan” produce quite a few links to sites that claim the “synagogue of Satan” refers to the Jewish people today and that promote all kinds of conspiracy theories about how the Jews run the world. Quite frankly, this is a misinterpretation and misapplication of the verses in Revelation. The synagogue of Satan refers to specific Jewish communities in Smyrna and Philadelphia that were persecuting the church, not to any modern situation. Likewise, no modern situation should be used as an interpretive tool to explain a passage firmly rooted in the first-century Roman world.
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S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Harel13 said:
Oh, now I get it. When you become evil, you get a name change. So when Saul turned his back on his faith, heritage and people, he became Paul. When Lucifer fell (stupidly, as we've concluded), he became Satan. And when Anakin turned to the dark side, he became Darth Vader.
Click to expand...

Abrams name changed to Abraham.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Harel13 said:
So you disagree with what you quoted earlier?
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I disagree with the belief that the New Testament is anti semetic. I don't know what the church did, but that has nothing to do with God dying for his creation. Real Messiah

From the second to the sixth centuries, several prominent church leaders, including John Chrysostom, promulgated the idea that the Jews were an indecent, lawless people, who, because of their rejection and murder of Jesus, were cursed and beyond redemption, having forfeited all God's promises, which now belonged to the church. Once the Christians came into power in the late fourth century, they began to implement anti-Jewish legislation, depriving Jews of certain rights to property, work, trade and travel. Towards the goal of conversion, Jews were also forced to listen to Christian sermons in their synagogues.

In the Crusades of the eleventh century, the church in Europe gave the Jewish "infidels" living among them the "choice" between baptism and death (many chose the latter). When the Crusaders reached Jerusalem, they didn't just drive out the Muslims, but also rounded up the Jews and burned them alive in the great synagogue. It was during the Middle Ages that many of the rumors began that Jews were killing Christians and using their blood to make Passover bread, or that they were desecrating the communion elements in order to get back at Jesus. Many Jews were put to death as a result of these lies. There were also attempts to force Jews to renounce all connections to the faith of their ancestors when they joined the church. During the four-hundred-year period of the Inquisition, Christians attempted to expose Jews who continued to practice Jewish customs and traditions after outwardly converting to Christianity. As a result, these Jews were mercilessly tortured and often executed. In 1492, all Jews who refused to be baptized were driven out of Spain.

In the sixteenth century, Martin Luther, one of the most famous reformers of the church, responded to Jewish refusal to accept Jesus as their Messiah by writing the treatise called Concerning the Jews and their Lies, in which he proposed several methods for solving the Jewish "problem," including burning synagogues, destroying homes, taking away prayer books and Talmuds, and threatening the rabbis with death if they continued to teach their faith. Although this work was largely refuted or ignored at the time, it was reintroduced when the Nazis were looking for support for their ideology. During the seventeenth, eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, inflammatory Easter sermons instigated pogroms against the "Christ killers"—destruction and injury, even murder, were carried out in the name of Christianity. In the twentieth century some Christian theologians tried to prove that Jesus wasn't really Jewish and suggested ways of dealing with the Jewish problem by depriving them of particular rights and designating them as having an inferior status. Even after all that had happened in the Holocaust, Polish Christians persecuted and even killed returning Jewish survivors. Some church leaders in our day have consistently sided with the PLO and against the Jewish people in virtually every land and security-related issue in the State of Israel.

These are just some of the so-called "Christian" persecutions of the Jewish people, yet this is only one side of the story. Before we consider other elements, let me pause a moment to explain that the church strayed so far from its Jewish roots that it ended up persecuting and killing not only Jews, but also many true Christians who dared to challenge or try to address its corruption. John Hus, John Wycliffe and William Tyndale are just a few of these Christian martyrs.
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Rival

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Harel13 said:
True. But that doesn't make us stupid. I believe we've concluded that angels are stupid, and since we sometimes follow them, we're also stupid.
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This made me laugh aloud, but not sure it was intended to be funny :D
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Harel13 said:
True. But that doesn't make us stupid. I believe we've concluded that angels are stupid, and since we sometimes follow them, we're also stupid.
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The angels fell because they wanted to be God. It's the same reason that humanity fell. http://biblerelatedministries.org/5Iwills.pdf

Genesis 3:5 says For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
 
Harel13

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Skywalker said:
The angels fell because they wanted to be God. It's the same reason that humanity fell. http://biblerelatedministries.org/5Iwills.pdf

Genesis 3:5 says For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
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The verse says "as gods", as in clearly eating from the fruit won't make you a god but will give you a certain kind of high-level sight.

Not sure that's comparable to the inherent dumbness of angels, as we've already come to conclude.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Harel13 said:
So you won't quote that other article anymore?
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The article about the Book of Revelation mentioning the synagogue of Satan disagrees with anti Semitic conspiracy theories. What is the synagogue of Satan in Revelation? | GotQuestions.org

Internet searches of “synagogue of Satan” produce quite a few links to sites that claim the “synagogue of Satan” refers to the Jewish people today and that promote all kinds of conspiracy theories about how the Jews run the world. Quite frankly, this is a misinterpretation and misapplication of the verses in Revelation. The synagogue of Satan refers to specific Jewish communities in Smyrna and Philadelphia that were persecuting the church, not to any modern situation. Likewise, no modern situation should be used as an interpretive tool to explain a passage firmly rooted in the first-century Roman world.
Click to expand...
 
Rival

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
I could be doing something meaningful, like praying, or learning Old French and making translations, or watching educational videos, or partaking in an intellectually stimulating discussion.

But no, I'm here debating remedial angels.
 
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