Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

[Skywalker]

One possiblity: This specific angel desires to be cursed and to eat dust.

God doesn't cast Satan into the bottomless pit because he uses Satan to test people, but God doesn't make Satan tempt people. Satan hates people because they are made in the image of God. Satans goal is to being destruction to people and separate people from God.

 

[Harel13]

God doesn't cast Satan into the bottomless pit because He uses him to test people.

True. So far, you seem to be in agreement with my view. Still doesn't explain why god would create such a stupid angel.

 

[Harel13]

Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9 doesn't say that Jewish people are of the synagague of Satan, the context of that verse is about people who were persecuting Christians. They were doing the work of the enemy by persecuting Christians. What is the synagogue of Satan in Revelation? | GotQuestions.org

In reality, by rejecting the Jewish Messiah, they have renounced their status as “true” Jews, and that is why Jesus calls them “liars.”
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But this is true of all Jews who have not turned to Christianity (the vast majority of Jews)!

This distinction between ethnic Jews and faithful Jews is also seen in Romans 9:6 (“Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel”) and Romans 2:28–29 (“For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter”). By their persecution of the true people of God, these unbelieving Jews had become a synagogue of Satan—a gathering of people who were actually following the devil’s priorities.
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Ah, there we go. The distinction between ethnic Jews and spiritual Jews. Knew it was coming. Thanks for proving me right. Your assistance is appreciated. Also, I have a poem on this topic, if you're interested.

 

[dybmh]

God doesn't cast Satan into the bottomless pit because he uses Satan to test people, but God doesn't make Satan tempt people. Satan hates people because they are made in the image of God. Satans goal is to being destruction to people and separate people from God.

Satan is the pit itself. Satan is not a 'who', it's a 'what'.

 

[Skywalker]

True. So far, you seem to be in agreement with my view. Still doesn't explain why god would create such a stupid angel.

God didn't create Satan God created Lucifer. He led a rebellion with one third of the angels.

 

[Skywalker]

In reality, by rejecting the Jewish Messiah, they have renounced their status as “true” Jews, and that is why Jesus calls them “liars.”
​

But this is true of all Jews who have not turned to Christianity (the vast majority of Jews)!

This distinction between ethnic Jews and faithful Jews is also seen in Romans 9:6 (“Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel”) and Romans 2:28–29 (“For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter”). By their persecution of the true people of God, these unbelieving Jews had become a synagogue of Satan—a gathering of people who were actually following the devil’s priorities.
​

Ah, there we go. The distinction between ethnic Jews and spiritual Jews. Knew it was coming. Thanks for proving me right. Your assistance is appreciated. Also, I have a poem on this topic, if you're interested.

Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9 don't say that Jews are of the synagague of Satan because they don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah they are talking about the people who were persecuting followers of Jesus.

 

[Harel13]

God didn't create Satan God created Lucifer. He led a rebellion with one third of the angels.

Oh, that's even worse! god created dozens if not hundreds of stupid angels, led by the big buffoon himself.
Wait, if angels are stupid, and we're convinced to sin because of them, does that make us stupid too?

 

[Harel13]

Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9 don't say that Jews are of the synagague of Satan because they don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah they are talking about the people who were persecuting followers of Jesus.

So you disagree with what you quoted earlier, then?

 

[Skywalker]

Satan is the pit itself. Satan is not a 'who', it's a 'what'.

Satan is a fallen angel. God created Satan. Satan was an angel.

 

[Harel13]

Satan is a fallen angel. God created Satan. Satan was an angel.

God didn't create Satan God created Lucifer.

Seems contradictory.

 

[Skywalker]

Oh, that's even worse! god created dozens if not hundreds of stupid angels, led by the big buffoon himself.
Wait, if angels are stupid, and we're convinced to sin because of them, does that make us stupid too?

God allows evil to tempt people to test them.

 

[Skywalker]

So you disagree with what you quoted earlier, then?

Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9 talk about the Jewish people who were persecuting followers of Jesus, not all Jewish people.

 

[Skywalker]

Seems contradictory.

When Saul became a follower of Jesus, his name was changed to Paul. When Lucifer rebelled, his name was changed to Satan.

 

[dybmh]

Satan is a fallen angel. God created Satan. Satan was an angel.

If this comes from the Christian bible, please remember that those words were exaggerated. Satan as a fallen angel is a myth/legend.

 

[Rival]

When Saul became a follower of Jesus, his name was changed to Paul. When Lucifer rebelled, his name was changed to Satan.

Why would G-d give this angel a random Latin name no-one had ever heard of until the Vulgate Bible, not even Christians....

 

[Skywalker]

If this comes from the Christian bible, please remember that those words were exaggerated. Satan as a fallen angel is a myth/legend.

Even without the Bible you know that evil exists. If there is good, there is evil.

 

[Skywalker]

Why would G-d give this angel a random Latin name no-one had ever heard of until the Vulgate Bible, not even Christians....

The Hebrew Bible uses the term Heylel which means shining one. Satan went from the angel of light and music to the adversary of God.

 

[Rival]

The Hebrew Bible uses the term Heylel which means shining one. Satan went from the angel of light and music to the adversary of God.

Where?

And don't give me a passage about the King of Bavel.

 

[dybmh]

Even without the Bible you know that evil exists. If there is good, there is evil.

True... So... Where does the fallen angel narrative come from?

 

[Skywalker]

Where?

And don't give me a passage about the King of Bavel.

Ezekiel 28 is a reference to the spiritual influence behind the King of Tyre. If someone isn't following God, they are following the other one. Is the king of Tyre prophecy in Ezekiel 28 referring to Satan? | GotQuestions.org

At first glance, the prophecy in Ezekiel 28:11–19 seems to refer to a human king. The city of Tyre was the recipient of some of the strongest prophetic condemnations in the Bible (Isaiah 23:1–18; Jeremiah 25:22; 27:1–11; Ezekiel 26:1– 28:19; Joel 3:4–8; Amos 1:9, 10). Tyre was known for building its wealth by exploiting its neighbors. Ancient writers referred to Tyre as a city filled with unscrupulous merchants. Tyre was a center of religious idolatry and sexual immorality. The biblical prophets rebuked Tyre for its pride brought on by its great wealth and strategic location. Ezekiel 28:11–19 seems to be a particularly strong indictment against the king of Tyre in the prophet Ezekiel’s day, rebuking the king for his insatiable pride and greed.

However, some of the descriptions in Ezekiel 28:11–19 go beyond any mere human king. In no sense could an earthly king claim to be “in Eden” or to be “the anointed cherub who covers” or to be “on the holy mountain of God.” Therefore, most Bible interpreters believe that Ezekiel 28:11–19 is a dual prophecy, comparing the pride of the king of Tyre to the pride of Satan. Some propose that the king of Tyre was actually possessed by Satan, making the link between the two even more powerful and applicable.

Before his fall, Satan was indeed a beautiful creature (Ezekiel 28:12–13). He was perhaps the most beautiful and powerful of all the angels. The phrase “guardian cherub” possibly indicates that Satan was the angel who “guarded” God’s presence. Pride led to Satan’s fall. Rather than give God the glory for creating him so beautifully, Satan took pride in himself, thinking that he himself was responsible for his exalted status. Satan’s rebellion resulted in God casting Satan from His presence and will, eventually, result in God condemning Satan to the lake of fire for all eternity (Revelation 20:10).

Like Satan, the human king of Tyre was prideful. Rather than recognize God’s sovereignty, the king of Tyre attributed Tyre’s riches to his own wisdom and strength. Not satisfied with his extravagant position, the king of Tyre sought more and more, resulting in Tyre taking advantage of other nations, expanding its own wealth at the expense of others. But just as Satan’s pride led to his fall and will eventually lead to his eternal destruction, so will the city of Tyre lose its wealth, power, and status. Ezekiel’s prophecy of Tyre’s total destruction was fulfilled partially by Nebuchadnezzar (Ezekiel 29:17–21) and ultimately by Alexander the Great.