Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

[Harel13]

It is impossible for there to be two infinite beings. Since God is infinite, no other being can be infinite.

True. Which is why I don't believe a spiritual angelic entity can rebel against God. Nor do I believe three entities can be god.

 

[Skywalker]

True. Which is why I don't believe a spiritual angelic entity can rebel against God. Nor do I believe three entities can be god.

Pure dualism, an infinite Good power vs. an infinite evil power-is impossible. There is no such thing as pure evil. Evil is a privation of or a parasite in good; it cannot exist on its own. Evil is like rust to a car. If you take away all the rust, you have a better car. If you take away all the car, you have nothing. So Satan cannot be the evil equivalent of God.

 

[Harel13]

Pure dualism, an infinite Good power vs. an infinite evil power-is impossible. There is no such thing as pure evil. Evil is a privation of or a parasite in good; it cannot exist on its own. Evil is like rust to a car. If you take away all the rust, you have a better car. If you take away all the car, you have nothing. So Satan cannot be the evil equivalent of God.

And yet you believe he somehow managed to rebel against god.

 

[Skywalker]

Then proceeds to quote the Bible.

Why do you think that evil doesn't exist? Evil is real. Look around you.

 

[Rival]

Why do you think that evil doesn't exist? Evil is real. Look around you.

I never said evil doesn't exist. You said you can prove it exists without the Bible then quoted the Bible. It was funny.

 

[Skywalker]

And yet you believe he somehow managed to rebel against god.

God has no equal. He is the one infinite Being who is supreme over all of creation. As a result, created spiritual beings, if they exist at all, are limited by God. Dualism – What is it?

Dualism is the idea that there are two equal powers—good and evil—in competition with one another. Some have adapted this idea into the concept of so-called Christian dualism, the idea that God and Satan (or evil) stand in conflict, with equal power in competing with one another.

What does the Bible teach about the idea of dualism? First, it is clear that there is only one God who created all things (Genesis 1:1). There is no biblical teaching of an equally powerful evil being.

Second, Satan's power is clearly limited and less than God's power. Satan had to request permission to persecute Job (Job 1—2). In the Garden of Eden, the serpent was condemned and judged by God (Genesis 3). Romans 16:20 says that the God of peace will soon crush Satan underneath our feet. Satan's power is clearly weak in comparison with God.

Third, it is clear that Satan's time is short. Revelation 20:10 speaks of Satan's future, stating, "and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Satan's time of evil will be ended and his punishment will be eternal.

Sometimes the cultural idea is that God is on one shoulder telling us the right thing to do and Satan is on the other shoulder tempting us to do wrong. However, Satan can be overcome by God at any time. Jesus exemplified how Christians should respond to temptation when He resisted Satan three times in the wilderness (Matthew 4:1-11). Jesus quoted God's Word each time, offering an example to us as well as resulting in Satan leaving Jesus.

 

[Skywalker]

I never said evil doesn't exist. You said you can prove it exists without the Bible then quoted the Bible. It was funny.

The Bible mentions the devil in the book of Genesis, which was written before Zoroastrianism. Genesis 3:4-5

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 

[Harel13]

God has no equal. He is the one infinite Being who is supreme over all of creation. As a result, created spiritual beings, if they exist at all, are limited by God. Dualism – What is it?

I know what dualism is. Otherwise I wouldn't have brought it up.
So how can an angelic entity rebel against god?

 

[Rival]

The Bible mentions the devil in the book of Genesis, which was written before Zoroastrianism. Genesis 3:4-5

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Where does it say it is 'the devil' anywhere in that book? Where is 'the devil' anywhere in Tanakh?

 

[Skywalker]

I know what dualism is. Otherwise I wouldn't have brought it up.
So how can an angelic entity rebel against god?

In the Old Testament, the devil tempts God's people to sin, in 1 Chronicles 21:1, to accusing and then afflicting Job and others (Job 1-2; Zechariah 3:1). This is what his very name means, for when used as a verb, Satan can refer to an adversary or accuser, or to be hostile. Genesis 27:41; 49:23; 50:15; Zechariah 3:1). “Why is Satan Mentioned Little in the Old Testament?”

Theologians often talk about “progressive revelation” regarding the unfolding of truth in scripture. Those living during OT times didn’t know exactly how God was going to provide salvation for his people through the sacrifice of His Son, but they did understand the concept of blood sacrifice and the need for atonement. Those living under the law had small glimpses of Satan’s work, but it took the added information of revelation in the NT to give a more complete picture. It might also be noted that many of the concepts about Satan revealed by Jesus through the NT writers can be found in literature outside the Bible during the first century. As time goes forward revelation gives us a clearer concept of a fallen angel who leads a rebellion against God’s reign and works to disrupt the work of the church.

 

[Skywalker]

I know what dualism is. Otherwise I wouldn't have brought it up.
So how can an angelic entity rebel against god?

Satan was created with attributes such as power, free will, and rational thought, but he uses them for evil purposes.

 

[Harel13]

In the Old Testament, the devil tempts God's people to sin, in 1 Chronicles 21:1, to accusing and then afflicting Job and others (Job 1-2; Zechariah 3:1). This is what his very name means, for when used as a verb, Satan can refer to an adversary or accuser, or to be hostile. Genesis 27:41; 49:23; 50:15; Zechariah 3:1). “Why is Satan Mentioned Little in the Old Testament?”

Yes, every angel has a God-given task. Ha'Satan's task is to tempt people to sin.
How can an angelic entity rebel against god?

 

[Harel13]

Satan was created with attributes such as power, free will, and rational thought, but he uses them for evil purposes.

What evidence have you that Satan has free will?

 

[Skywalker]

Yes, every angel has a God-given task. Ha'Satan's task is to tempt people to sin.
How can an angelic entity rebel against god?

Why would a holy angel tempt people to sin? God allows evil, he doesn't cause it.

 

[Rival]

Why would a holy angel tempt people to sin? God allows evil, he doesn't cause it.

You mean you disagree with Isaiah 45:7?

Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.

 

[Skywalker]

What evidence have you that Satan has free will?

God created all of the angels sinless, but they had free will. God created Satan. Satan was an angel. When was the fall of Satan, and how did it happen?

When was the fall of Satan, and how did it happen?
In eternity past there was God alone, and there existed only one will at that point – God's. Then God chose to create the angels. This apparently was done before the creation of our world (Job 38:6-7). At the outset, at least, the angels' wills were perfectly aligned with God's. There was, in effect, still just one will in God's creation.

But then something happened that changed everything. Using poetic language, the Bible describes how one of the angels rose up against God, rebelled, and introduced a second will into the created order.

Scripture chronicles the events in two Old Testament passages: Ezekiel 28and Isaiah 14. Although some Bible commentators believe these portions of Scripture do not refer to the fall of Satan, many other theologians are convinced they do.

At the start of Ezekiel 28, the prophet first addresses a "ruler" of the land of Tyre. The historical Tyre was a city of unscrupulous merchants, as well as a center of religious idolatry and sexual immorality. The ruler in question was a man named Ethbaal III, who ruled Tyre from about 590 to 572 B.C. Ethbaal (whose name literally means "living with Baal") is described this way: "your heart is proud, and you have said, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of the gods, in the heart of the seas'" (Ezekiel 28:2).

After denouncing Ethbaal, the Prophet Ezekiel is then directed by God to deliver a second condemnation to the "king" of Tyre; this time, the description seems to be of a completely different type of being, one that is not a mere mortal. It appears God used the occasion of Ethbaal's fall to describe the original condition and fall of Satan. Like Ethbaal, Satan had raised his heart up against his Creator, declared that he would be a god, and was the spiritual king of Tyre and all its idolatry.

 

[Skywalker]

You mean you disagree with Isaiah 45:7?

Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.

To understand the Bible it has to be read in the proper context. God doesn't create evil he allows it. Does God "Create" Evil?

In Isaiah 45:7, the prophet wrote of God: “I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.” On occasion, unbelievers appeal to this verse in an attempt to involve the Bible in a moral difficulty, since the text seems to suggest that God “created” evil. How should a Christian respond to such a charge?

First of all, the verse can have no reference to moral evil (wickedness) for such is opposed to the infinitely holy nature of God (Isaiah 6:3). Jehovah is a “God of faithfulness and without iniquity”(Deuteronomy 32:4). He is “not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness” (Psalm 5:4). Nor can it be supposed that this verse has to do with Jehovah’s original creation, for at the termination of the creation week, the Lord saw “everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good” (Genesis 1:31).

The context of Isaiah 45:7, along with several passages of similar import, reveals the truth of the matter. Jehovah—through the prophet Isaiah—prophetically announced to King Cyrus of Persia (a century-and-a-half before the monarch’s birth!) His intention of using this pagan king as an instrument of His holy will. Within Isaiah 45:1-7 is a majestic affirmation of the universal sovereignty of the Almighty God; indeed, there is none like Him (vs. 5). He thus affirms: “I form light, and create darkness [i.e., control nature]; I make peace, and create evil [i.e., exercise control over the nations]; I am Jehovah that doeth all these things.”

 

[Rival]

To understand the Bible it has to be read in the proper context. God doesn't create evil he allows it. Does God "Create" Evil?

"The text says this!"

"Yeah but... it means the exact opposite."

Because certain Christian theology needs it to say something else.

 

[Harel13]

God created all of the angels sinless, but they had free will. God created Satan. Satan was an angel. When was the fall of Satan, and how did it happen?

This does not answer the question. What evidence have you that angels were created with free will?

To understand the Bible it has to be read in the proper context. God doesn't create evil he allows it. Does God "Create" Evil?

The verse literally has the term "creates evil" in it. And yet you say that God doesn't create evil? Are you insinuating that there's a force in the world that isn't from God?

 

[Skywalker]

This does not answer the question. What evidence have you that angels were created with free will?

The verse literally has the term "creates evil" in it. And yet you say that God doesn't create evil? Are you insinuating that there's a force in the world that isn't from God?

Since human beings have free will, why wouldn't angels?

God allowed other nations to take Israel into captivity as judgement on Israel for walking away from God, but He didn't cause it. Does God "Create" Evil?

Notice how the word “evil” is used in obvious contrast to “peace.” Isaiah simply was stating that Jehovah has the power to cause peaceful conditions to exist, or to bring about evil (i.e., destruction). Consider another verse. God warned the Israelites that if they made an alliance with Egypt, He would bring evil upon them [i.e., punishment (cf. Isaiah 31:1-2)]. Again, in describing the coming judgment upon ancient Babylon, the prophet declared: “Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shall not know the dawning thereof and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it away; and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou knoweth not” (Isaiah 47:11). Thus, the evil that God sent was a desolation—a desolation due on account of their wickedness!

Scholars have observed that “evil” can be used with a purely secular meaning to denote physical injury (Jeremiah 39:12), or times of distress (Amos 6:3)—which is its significance in Isaiah 45:7 (see Harris, et al., 1980, 2:855).