Why the request for gold by the bible god?

[jewscout]

Read in context.

Verses 1&2

"Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying "Speak to the children of Israel, that they bring Me and offering from everyone who gives it willingly with his heart you shall take My offering."

This isn't about materialism. The gold and other pretties really aren't an issue. The issue at hand in these verses is that God is asking for His children to willingly GIVE what He asks. The objects aren't important. God's looking for obedience and sacrifice from HIs children.

I don't really see what the big deal is.

good point Dawny!:bow:

 

[ProfLogic]

I don't really see what the big deal is.

Have you seen the churches in the vatican and in spain and in the US? Since gold was requested in the bible from the self proclaimed god, don't you think people used that information to make an excuse to decorate their churches with gold that came from civilizations that were destroyed for their treasures namely gold and other precious metals? And you don't see anything wrong with it or that its not a big deal?

 

[ProfLogic]

But we only have the people's record of it. We don't have god's. Maybe She wasn't actually wanting gold, just potluck dishes so that people could all have a nice meal with some fried chicken and potato salad. Somewhere, it may have been written down incorrectly, so when She was suggesting that people bring a bag of ice, someone misinterpreted it as gold.

Believers have great confidence that the canonized compilation of the bible in the 3rd century under the guidance of the selected few monks , who might or maybe inspired by it, that was later translated in english by again a few selected few who might or may be inspired by it are the actual words of god. You call it a she? Believers might be upset too just like they do to me.....when I refer to it as it since its nothing but another awareness that don't have a physical home to call its own.

Back to your food reference...send them to me and maybe I would also call it she.. lol.. You are one cool cat.......

 

[dawny0826]

Have you seen the churches in the vatican and in spain and in the US? Since gold was requested in the bible from the self proclaimed god, don't you think people used that information to make an excuse to decorate their churches with gold that came from civilizations that were destroyed for their treasures namely gold and other precious metals? And you don't see anything wrong with it or that its not a big deal?

Greed and materialism aren't characteristics that God approves of.

I haven't seen the churches that you speak of. If what you say is true...that these individuals destroyed others for their resources...I assure you...God wasn't the inspiration behind their actions.

I didn't understand the confusion over the verses that you quoted. People wrongfully, could use such verses to justify greed but that's NOT what God was asking for in those verses.

 

[Bishka]

Have you seen the churches in the vatican and in spain and in the US? Since gold was requested in the bible from the self proclaimed god, don't you think people used that information to make an excuse to decorate their churches with gold that came from civilizations that were destroyed for their treasures namely gold and other precious metals? And you don't see anything wrong with it or that its not a big deal?

And? Of course we something wrong - but it isn't our doctrine, and the way you are portraying it is a bit ridiculous.

Apparenlty you talk just to argue.

They did in the 'name of God', but haven't you heard the scripture:

"Ye will judge them by their fruits"? If the apple is rotten - then their deed were rotten. Getting through to you yet?

They weren't doing it in the name of God, and if you haven't figure that out already -- I pity you.

 

[Booko]

You asked Jewscout:

Does your faith allow a person that is not Jewish to enter into heaven?

Uh...SU, you've been on RF this long and you've never run across this topic yet? Judaism isn't exclusive. Not by a long shot.

I did not mean to be personal. I just asked a question. I really would like to know why Jews believe they are the chosen people.

It's a common misconception among Christians that the meaning of "Chosen" is "better than the rest of you."

I've yet to meet a Jew who acted like that was the meaning.

 

[Super Universe]

:banghead3
1) I'm pretty damn sure the Jews don't think they created God.
2) I didn't say that, but maybe i wasn't being clear. The God we are talking about is the Jewish God, the Jewish concept of God.
Christianity, Islam, Urantia - these all stem from the original Jewish concept of God.

They know more about the concept of God that is written about in their book than you, yes. They know more about the form of God that Urantia is based upon than you, yes.

Says who? Christianity.
Where did Christianity originate? A Jewish sect.
Need i go on?

Thanks.

No, Jews do not believe they created the Creator of the universe but, as you say, they likely believe that Yahweh is their concept but here's the thing, while the other
Abrahamic religions do stem from the original Jewish concept, they do not add to it but correct it.

Christ portray's none of the Old Testament Creator's jealousy, anger, and revengeful nature. The Urantia Book portray's God as so above everything that it is impossible for Him to be involved with the earth or humans other than through our soul connection.

Also Judaism is original in that it gave a different name to the Creator, it gave humans more guidance in the ten commandments, and it's revelation came to the Hebrews this time but many of it's ideas are not original at all.

Ancient tribal religious beliefs have often had a single most powerful God with many other gods (the Sun, Ra, Zeus, Jupiter...) just as today we have monotheism with angels.

The Urantia Book was published in the 1950's but even it has been superceded by the Wingmakers. Revelation is ongoing and has never stopped. There is so much more of the universe that we are able to comprehend now than 4,000 years ago.

They (Jews) know more about the God that Urantia Book is based upon? Hardly. God does not become jealous. He does not tempt His children. He does not punish, He does not anger, send plagues or storms or meteors. And most of all, God does not violate His own laws and kill. The Urantia Book is not an outgrowth of the Torah, it's a correction.

You are really stuck on this "Jews were the first" idea. Do you drive a Ford model T car? Do you ever fly in an old biplane? Do you weave clothes from palm fronds? How about butter, do you buy it at a store or do you churn your own? It's not 2,000 bc anymore.

Christianity originated from a Jewish sect? Sure but who were the original Jewish people? They were the ones who chose the golden calf over God. Weren't the ones who finally decided to follow Moses the first official Jewish religious sect?

What great words are found in the Old Testament? Where is forgiveness preached?
Where is anything that compares to "Love your neighbor"? If you do not see these words as better than the entire Torah then they are not for you and you should continue on with the ten commandments as your guidance.

 

[Super Universe]

You asked Jewscout:
Uh...SU, you've been on RF this long and you've never run across this topic yet? Judaism isn't exclusive. Not by a long shot.

It's a common misconception among Christians that the meaning of "Chosen" is "better than the rest of you."

I've yet to meet a Jew who acted like that was the meaning.

I have never run across this topic before, or at least, never heard the Jewish side of it. Also, even if the prevailing Jewish opinion is this or that does not necessarily mean that every Jew believes in it. I wanted JewScouts opinion.

I probably did/do believe the term "chosen people" to mean better than the rest in God's eyes but there is other support for this opinion. For much of history, Jews would not allow non-Jews to marry into their families. Perhaps today it is not as strictly adhered to as it used to be.

I cannot accept that God would have a "chosen people", one group over another, so to me that means that this term is something added to revelation by an ancient writer. If so, doesn't this strike you as a pretty egotistical thing to preach to your following?

 

[Halcyon]

No, Jews do not believe they created the Creator of the universe but, as you say, they likely believe that Yahweh is their concept but here's the thing, while the other
Abrahamic religions do stem from the original Jewish concept, they do not add to it but correct it.

Oh my god. You can't possibly believe that?!
You can't take someone's religion and correct it! They wrote the scriptures, they understand them far better than you ever will, taking an outward glance at the Tanach and correcting errors you see is down right stupid. You don't have a full understanding of those scriptures, you can't correct them.

Christ portray's none of the Old Testament Creator's jealousy, anger, and revengeful nature. The Urantia Book portray's God as so above everything that it is impossible for Him to be involved with the earth or humans other than through our soul connection.

Then you have a different God. Proclaiming direct evolution from the Jewish scriptures and then claiming to correct them is arrogant and stupid beyond all comprehension.
If you're going to start a new religion with a new concept of deity, at least have the decency to make it original.

The Urantia Book was published in the 1950's but even it has been superceded by the Wingmakers. Revelation is ongoing and has never stopped. There is so much more of the universe that we are able to comprehend now than 4,000 years ago.

Automatic writing and imaginative story tellng cannot constitute scripture. Scripture tells you about God, about yourself and about the relationship between the two- it's layered. A poor attempt at converting modern science to religious text, mixing in far-fetched stories of UFO's and "Advanced Contact Intelligence Organizations", tells you nothing about yourself.
Believe what you want, but claiming that this corrects the Jewish scriptures is just insulting.

They (Jews) know more about the God that Urantia Book is based upon? Hardly. God does not become jealous. He does not tempt His children. He does not punish, He does not anger, send plagues or storms or meteors. And most of all, God does not violate His own laws and kill. The Urantia Book is not an outgrowth of the Torah, it's a correction.

If you can get something meaningful out of a book that's quite obviously a man-made attempt to combine 50's scientific understanding with a Seventh-day Adventist version of Christianity, fine. Just stop claiming it corrects anything.

You are really stuck on this "Jews were the first" idea. Do you drive a Ford model T car? Do you ever fly in an old biplane? Do you weave clothes from palm fronds? How about butter, do you buy it at a store or do you churn your own? It's not 2,000 bc anymore.

Would you drive a Ford model T car or fly a biplane that had been "upgraded" by a hairdresser or a poet?

What great words are found in the Old Testament? Where is forgiveness preached?
Where is anything that compares to "Love your neighbor"? If you do not see these words as better than the entire Torah then they are not for you and you should continue on with the ten commandments as your guidance.

Leviticus 19:18 Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

Maybe you should learn a smidgen about the literature you are attempting to debunk before posting again.

 

[Booko]

No, Jews do not believe they created the Creator of the universe but, as you say, they likely believe that Yahweh is their concept but here's the thing, while the other
Abrahamic religions do stem from the original Jewish concept, they do not add to it but correct it.

Uh, I'll leave it to the Jews to explain what they believe.

I beg to differ with your comment on Abrahamic religions, though. My religion no only "adds to" previous religions, we view each successive religion as adding something to the previous ones. The idea that each religion renews previous religions in some way is only part of "progressive revelation." Without adding to, it isn't very "progressive," is it?

Also Judaism is original in that it gave a different name to the Creator, it gave humans more guidance in the ten commandments, and it's revelation came to the Hebrews this time but many of it's ideas are not original at all.

Actually there are 613 commandments, though they are mostly not for Gentiles.

Ancient tribal religious beliefs have often had a single most powerful God with many other gods (the Sun, Ra, Zeus, Jupiter...) just as today we have monotheism with angels.

<wonders how angels figure in any way in her religion that it might be at all synonymous with "gods">

The Urantia Book was published in the 1950's but even it has been superceded by the Wingmakers. Revelation is ongoing and has never stopped. There is so much more of the universe that we are able to comprehend now than 4,000 years ago.

Here you seem to contradict yourself, but then I could be misreading you. You say that religions don't add anything, but then you acknowledge that we can comprehend more than we could 4000 years ago and that revelation is ongoing. Could you please clarify this? Thanks.

What great words are found in the Old Testament? Where is forgiveness preached?
Where is anything that compares to "Love your neighbor"? If you do not see these words as better than the entire Torah then they are not for you and you should continue on with the ten commandments as your guidance.

What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow men. That is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary.
_The Talmud_ (Shabbat 3'a)

 

[Booko]

You can't take someone's religion and correct it! They wrote the scriptures, they understand them far better than you ever will, taking an outward glance at the Tanach and correcting errors you see is down right stupid. You don't have a full understanding of those scriptures, you can't correct them.

Just as a sort of side note, I don't believe I can correct anything, but if God wants to send someone to do so, that's Her business.

Halcyon, it's pretty evident that after a time all religions come to a place where there are multiple views on what their text "means." In which case I wouldn't go too far down the path of assuming they understand their own scriptures completely either, because with the multiplicity of views, someone has to be off somewhere.

Of course, it's still chutzpah to tell other people what they "really" believe.

Leviticus 19:18 Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

Oh duh! Thanks, Halcyon. I'll add that to my "collection."

 

[Halcyon]

Just as a sort of side note, I don't believe I can correct anything, but if God wants to send someone to do so, that's Her business.

Sure, but you wouldn't be so brash as to say to a Jewish person that Baha'i corrects their scriptures, would you?

Also, you can believe in the Baha'i scriptures, but would you argue with a Jew about the Jewish interpretation of scripture written by Jews for Jews?

Halcyon, it's pretty evident that after a time all religions come to a place where there are multiple views on what their text "means." In which case I wouldn't go too far down the path of assuming they understand their own scriptures completely either, because with the multiplicity of views, someone has to be off somewhere.

Of course, it's still chutzpah to tell other people what they "really" believe.

Indeed, but differences of interpretation within a faith are totally different to interpretations originating outside of that faith.

Take the concept of the Messiah again. If a Jewish person explains to you the prophecies the Messiah is expected to fulfill, and the context in which he is supposed to fulfull them, you can see that Jesus is in no way is the Jewish Messiah as portrayed in the Jewish scriptures.
I have my own belief on who and what Jesus was, but i'm not going to go so far as to "correct" the Jewish interpretation of the Messiah to comply with my belief.

It could be argued that Gnosticism corrects the Jewish scriptures, but it would be a false conclusion.
Gnosticism not only reinterprets the story of Genesis, it rewrites it into an original myth. The Jewish scripture becomes irrelevant to us, and the Jewish interpretation of their original scripture remains intact and respected. Our beliefs are based on a new and different piece of scripture.
Therefore, i'm not going to argue with a Jewish person about their interpretation of their scriptures, but i will debate with a Christian about their interpretation of certain NT works, because we share the same works.

Does that make any sense?

 

[jewscout]

wow

i want to start by saying i find the tone here extremely condescending and rude toward Judaism and the Torah, i would ask that any further questions be presented in a tactful and respectful manner or i see no point in answering said questions.

first, SU, if you want to believe your faith "corrected" the Torah, that's fine, i am really not going to lose any sleep over it. Christianity and Islam have been saying the same thing for centuries, why should your faith be any different. Understand that in judaism the laws of the Torah are not for everyone, only the jews, the non-jewish world is goverened by the 7 Noahidic laws.

What great words are found in the Old Testament?

torah teaches:
create courts of justice
care for the orphan, the widow, the poor, the stranger
care for one another
defend someone who is wronged
do not lie
do not murder
do not steal
love G-d
love your fellow
deal fairly in business

or better perhaps you should learn from the words of Rabbi Hillel that are found in the Talmud:
"This is our Holy Torah: That which is hateful to you do not do to others"

I probably did/do believe the term "chosen people" to mean better than the rest in God's eyes but there is other support for this opinion. For much of history, Jews would not allow non-Jews to marry into their families.

ummm not true, they can convert and marry any jew they want...have you ever read the book of Ruth?
as to your issue w/ the concept of "chosen people" i have already answered you:
do you understand the concept of Choseness from a Jewish perspective?
They were chosen to be given the Torah, to be the way for the world to hear the message of the One G-d by living the way He told them to. Not because they are better or smarter or stronger or purer than anyone in the world, it says so in the Torah, G-d calls them a stiffnecked people. Jews are not better than anyone else and Judaism does not teach that.
You can believe in G-d, be a good and righteous person, be a non-jew AND IT'S OK!

Choseness in Judaism has nothing to do w/ superiority. Drop it!

If you have further questions on Judaism i direct your attention to the Judaism forum where myself and others will be more than happy to answer any questions you have. If you do so i ask that you do it in a respectful and tactful manner.

If this tone of superiority continues i will not consider further discussion with you on any matter, judaism or otherwise.

I give respect where respect is given to me.

 

[Super Universe]

Oh my god. You can't possibly believe that?!
You can't take someone's religion and correct it! They wrote the scriptures, they understand them far better than you ever will, taking an outward glance at the Tanach and correcting errors you see is down right stupid. You don't have a full understanding of those scriptures, you can't correct them.

Then you have a different God. Proclaiming direct evolution from the Jewish scriptures and then claiming to correct them is arrogant and stupid beyond all comprehension.
If you're going to start a new religion with a new concept of deity, at least have the decency to make it original.

Automatic writing and imaginative story tellng cannot constitute scripture. Scripture tells you about God, about yourself and about the relationship between the two- it's layered. A poor attempt at converting modern science to religious text, mixing in far-fetched stories of UFO's and "Advanced Contact Intelligence Organizations", tells you nothing about yourself.
Believe what you want, but claiming that this corrects the Jewish scriptures is just insulting.

If you can get something meaningful out of a book that's quite obviously a man-made attempt to combine 50's scientific understanding with a Seventh-day Adventist version of Christianity, fine. Just stop claiming it corrects anything.

Would you drive a Ford model T car or fly a biplane that had been "upgraded" by a hairdresser or a poet?


Leviticus 19:18 Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

Maybe you should learn a smidgen about the literature you are attempting to debunk before posting again.

I can't take someone's religion and correct it? What do you think people have been doing for thousands of years? What religion is original? Only the first is. Many religions have simply changed a few things then declared themselves "new".

How is it right that God is deemed jealous? That God tempts humans like a child poking at an ant farm? That He sends plagues, and locusts, that He chooses one group over another and takes part in battle against them, that He hardens men's hearts, and the worst blasphemy of all, that God violates His own laws and kill's humans.

We are talking about the Prime Creator, First Cause, the Origin of all matter, energy, and sentience, He who created a trillion worlds and millions of species of life... This Creator... kills?

There is no different God, there is only one and some of us are adding more and more to our understanding of Him each day while others depend entirely on 4,000 year old experts who thought the earth was flat.

Who said anything about UFO's or advanced contact intelligence organizations? What are you talking about?

Love your neighbor as yourself. Great words, but then they combine that with "God tempts, tortures, punishes, drowns, becomes jealous, kills..."

Where's the love in that?

 

[Super Universe]

Sure, but you wouldn't be so brash as to say to a Jewish person that Baha'i corrects their scriptures, would you?

Also, you can believe in the Baha'i scriptures, but would you argue with a Jew about the Jewish interpretation of scripture written by Jews for Jews?


Indeed, but differences of interpretation within a faith are totally different to interpretations originating outside of that faith.

Take the concept of the Messiah again. If a Jewish person explains to you the prophecies the Messiah is expected to fulfill, and the context in which he is supposed to fulfull them, you can see that Jesus is in no way is the Jewish Messiah as portrayed in the Jewish scriptures.
I have my own belief on who and what Jesus was, but i'm not going to go so far as to "correct" the Jewish interpretation of the Messiah to comply with my belief.

It could be argued that Gnosticism corrects the Jewish scriptures, but it would be a false conclusion.
Gnosticism not only reinterprets the story of Genesis, it rewrites it into an original myth. The Jewish scripture becomes irrelevant to us, and the Jewish interpretation of their original scripture remains intact and respected. Our beliefs are based on a new and different piece of scripture.
Therefore, i'm not going to argue with a Jewish person about their interpretation of their scriptures, but i will debate with a Christian about their interpretation of certain NT works, because we share the same works.

Does that make any sense?

Jewish scripture written for Jews?

I absolutely believe that the Hebrews received divine revelation. The angels may have even said they were "chosen" to receive it but I do not believe that this meant that the Jews were or are chosen above others in God's view.

If the Old Testament is revelation, then it is for all, not just written by Jews so it's only for the Jews.

Jesus absolutely is not the "Jewish Messiah" because He did not wish to be a pawn for humans and continue this idea that one group is more special to God than others.

Gnosticism reinterprets Genesis? If it is not an evolved rewriting then why not just stick with the same old story?

The thing we have to realize is that we are all looking for the same thing, we are all on the same path. What one discovers benefits us all, if only we can open our eyes to it. One cannot keep revelation in a box, locked tight, and hold it unchanging, until we know everything there is to know.

 

[sojourner]

Have you seen the churches in the vatican and in spain and in the US? Since gold was requested in the bible from the self proclaimed god, don't you think people used that information to make an excuse to decorate their churches with gold that came from civilizations that were destroyed for their treasures namely gold and other precious metals? And you don't see anything wrong with it or that its not a big deal?

There is a church in Paris that has enormous, beautifully carved golden doors at the front entrance. Above the doors is the following statement:

"Whoever thou art, if thou seekest to extol the glory of these doors, marvel not at the gold and the expense, but at the craftsmanship of the work. Bright is the noble work -- and being nobly bright, it will brighten the mind, so that it may pass through these doors to the true light, where Christ is the true door. In what manner it be inherent in this world, the golden door defines..."

 

[ProfLogic]

Greed and materialism aren't characteristics that God approves of.

Lets discuss materialism... If it did not need it, why did it not just ask mankind to give honor to it through their hearts and mind? Why the command to built things for it? It had an alterior motive.

Now greed, the story of noah might be a perspective of greed... why is it not happy if only a few of its claimed creations believe in it? It claimed to have killed everything except for Noah and his family and 2 sets of every land animal. That act seems to be greed and not love.... otherwise it would have let people be.

I haven't seen the churches that you speak of. If what you say is true...that these individuals destroyed others for their resources...I assure you...God wasn't the inspiration behind their actions.

You need to see some of the churches to get a better perspective and also look at the history of the spanish conquistadors and the roman empire... God's inspiration is always debateable because the missionary that were with the explorers and conquistadors might actual think they where spreading its words to newly conquered people but as usual if people did not follow they are considered evil and needs to be destroyed as what the bible has shown in genesis.

I didn't understand the confusion over the verses that you quoted. People wrongfully, could use such verses to justify greed but that's NOT what God was asking for in those verses.

As I mentioned, it could have just ask for the hearts and the minds of people and not their possesions.... The quote gives future generations an excuse to gather precious metals in any way.. harmful or not to their fellow mankind.. as long as they do it in honor of their religion. That to me seems wrong.

 

[ProfLogic]

There is a church in Paris that has enormous, beautifully carved golden doors at the front entrance. Above the doors is the following statement:

"Whoever thou art, if thou seekest to extol the glory of these doors, marvel not at the gold and the expense, but at the craftsmanship of the work. Bright is the noble work -- and being nobly bright, it will brighten the mind, so that it may pass through these doors to the true light, where Christ is the true door. In what manner it be inherent in this world, the golden door defines..."

Which portion do you think people would pay attention to? The door itself or the writings?

 

[ProfLogic]

And? Of course we something wrong - but it isn't our doctrine, and the way you are portraying it is a bit ridiculous.

Apparenlty you talk just to argue.

They did in the 'name of God', but haven't you heard the scripture:

"Ye will judge them by their fruits"? If the apple is rotten - then their deed were rotten. Getting through to you yet?

They weren't doing it in the name of God, and if you haven't figure that out already -- I pity you.

Lets see... there were people that is high on the religious ladder that believes, the places of gathering needs to be majestic, thus full of gold in honor of their god. Was there a god that told them this, of course not otherwise they would have said so themselves... they did it themselves as they read the scriptures. Otherwise these majestic churches would have never existed.

 

[sojourner]

Which portion do you think people would pay attention to? The door itself or the writings?

It's a moot question. Even the statement itself says, "when you see the doors." Of course people pay attention to the doors...that's why they're there! They're ornate and breathtaking for a purpose. They're supposed to be in-your-face noticed! The statement merely warns the viewer to pay attention to what the doors represent, and not what they're made of. Obviously, you weren't paying attention to that caveat, yourself.:sleep: