Why the request for gold by the bible god?

[Halcyon]

I can't take someone's religion and correct it? What do you think people have been doing for thousands of years? What religion is original? Only the first is. Many religions have simply changed a few things then declared themselves "new".

The first? What first? If you even had a rudimentary understanding on the nature of religious/cultural development over time, you wouldn't make such a silly statement.

There is no different God, there is only one and some of us are adding more and more to our understanding of Him each day while others depend entirely on 4,000 year old experts who thought the earth was flat.

No-one ever believed the Earth was flat.

More understanding, or their own interpretations? Your arrogance when speaking of ancient traditions is mind-boggling.

Who said anything about UFO's or advanced contact intelligence organizations? What are you talking about?

You should know.
http://www.wingmakers.com/aap-ch1.html

Love your neighbor as yourself. Great words, but then they combine that with "God tempts, tortures, punishes, drowns, becomes jealous, kills..."

Where's the love in that?

Flip-flop. A couple of posts ago you were telling me those words weren't in the Torah, and were greater than anything else in it.

Jewish scripture written for Jews?

I absolutely believe that the Hebrews received divine revelation. The angels may have even said they were "chosen" to receive it but I do not believe that this meant that the Jews were or are chosen above others in God's view.

Maybe you should research some religious history then.

If the Old Testament is revelation, then it is for all, not just written by Jews so it's only for the Jews.

And what of the religious traditions/beliefs of the Ancient Egyptions, the Babylonians, the Canaanites, the Japanese, the Hindus, the Aboriginies, the Native Americans, the Inuits, the Finns, the Maya, the Inca, the Aztec, the ancient Arabians, the Chinese, the Druids, the Norse, the Ancient Greeks and the Romans. Were they revealed and written for all?

Jesus absolutely is not the "Jewish Messiah" because He did not wish to be a pawn for humans and continue this idea that one group is more special to God than others.

Jesus or Michael? Maybe we should ask a Seventh-day Adventist.

Gnosticism reinterprets Genesis? If it is not an evolved rewriting then why not just stick with the same old story?

Because the "same old story" is the Jewish understanding of God, and should remain in its original form with its original Jewish interpretation.

The thing we have to realize is that we are all looking for the same thing, we are all on the same path. What one discovers benefits us all, if only we can open our eyes to it. One cannot keep revelation in a box, locked tight, and hold it unchanging, until we know everything there is to know.

Really? Seems to me you just want to tell people what God is like.

 

[Super Universe]

The first? What first? If you even had a rudimentary understanding on the nature of religious/cultural development over time, you wouldn't make such a silly statement.

No-one ever believed the Earth was flat.

More understanding, or their own interpretations? Your arrogance when speaking of ancient traditions is mind-boggling.

You should know.
http://www.wingmakers.com/aap-ch1.html

Flip-flop. A couple of posts ago you were telling me those words weren't in the Torah, and were greater than anything else in it.

Maybe you should research some religious history then.

And what of the religious traditions/beliefs of the Ancient Egyptions, the Babylonians, the Canaanites, the Japanese, the Hindus, the Aboriginies, the Native Americans, the Inuits, the Finns, the Maya, the Inca, the Aztec, the ancient Arabians, the Chinese, the Druids, the Norse, the Ancient Greeks and the Romans. Were they revealed and written for all?

Jesus or Michael? Maybe we should ask a Seventh-day Adventist.

Because the "same old story" is the Jewish understanding of God, and should remain in its original form with its original Jewish interpretation.

Really? Seems to me you just want to tell people what God is like.

No one ever believed the earth was flat? I think these people disagree with you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society

The ancient scientists did not believe the earth was flat because they could see that everything in the sky above us is round but the rest of the world wasn't as educated nor as accepting of this idea, things seemed to disappear as they got farther away so people mistakenly thought the objects had fallen off the face of the earth.

My arrogance? Sigh... You are the one calling other's arguments "silly" and sending insults simply because I disagree with you on issues.

LOL! OMG LOL! Let me explain something to you that you obviously do not understand, hehe. Everything on the Wingmakers website is a myth. The creator of the website, James, even says so.

It's all a story, a very interesting story. You're not supposed to make it into a religion and go out and build a Wingmakers building and Wingmakers membership cards and develop Wingmakers rituals, hehe. It's a parable. But since this is off topic if you would like to challenge it further in another thread started by you then I would be more than happy to engage you.

Flip-flop, yes I flip-flop all the time. Can you hear my sandals? The Torah must be the greatest book ever, but then, it's a compilation of books written many years apart from each other. Judaism, like many other faiths, is based upon a gathering of scriptural revelation over a certain period of time. They just set a cutoff after the last book was added to the Torah. As a compilation it is absolutely evolutionary from what came before.

What of the religious beliefs of other people? Do they cut you off from it? Are you not allowed inside their temples? Can I not be a Buddhist Monk if I so desire? A people's belief is an evolution in the faith structure from their point of view.

I want to tell people what God is like? More than anything I want people to try to find a way to believe that God does not kill. Do you believe He kills? Is this what you are fighting for?

 

[Halcyon]

No one ever believed the earth was flat? I think these people disagree with you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society

Fine, no one sane ever thought the Earth was flat.

The ancient scientists did not believe the earth was flat because they could see that everything in the sky above us is round but the rest of the world wasn't as educated nor as accepting of this idea, things seemed to disappear as they got farther away so people mistakenly thought the objects had fallen off the face of the earth.

That's a myth, people have sailed beyond the horizon for millenia. Do you really think anyone would have sailed across the Med or the Atlantic if they thought they were going to fall off the edge?

My arrogance? Sigh... You are the one calling other's arguments "silly" and sending insults simply because I disagree with you on issues.

I saw arrogance in your belief that just because people have added stuff to Jewish text, that somehow makes Judaism redundant and people 4,000 years ago less spiritually knowledgable than those living today.
The silliness i saw in your idea of a 'first' religion.

LOL! OMG LOL! Let me explain something to you that you obviously do not understand, hehe. Everything on the Wingmakers website is a myth. The creator of the website, James, even says so.

It's all a story, a very interesting story. You're not supposed to make it into a religion and go out and build a Wingmakers building and Wingmakers membership cards and develop Wingmakers rituals, hehe. It's a parable. But since this is off topic if you would like to challenge it further in another thread started by you then I would be more than happy to engage you.

I will.

Flip-flop, yes I flip-flop all the time. Can you hear my sandals? The Torah must be the greatest book ever, but then, it's a compilation of books written many years apart from each other. Judaism, like many other faiths, is based upon a gathering of scriptural revelation over a certain period of time. They just set a cutoff after the last book was added to the Torah. As a compilation it is absolutely evolutionary from what came before.

Your point being?

What of the religious beliefs of other people? Do they cut you off from it? Are you not allowed inside their temples? Can I not be a Buddhist Monk if I so desire? A people's belief is an evolution in the faith structure from their point of view.

By jove i think he may have got it. Peoples' faith from their point of view. Just as the people who wrote the Tanack, whether you consider it divinely inspired or not, had their own point of view. Thus, to truly understand the Torah we must understand it from the Jewish point of view, get it?

The actual reason i listed all the civilisations was to counter your idea about a 'first' religion and revelations to those religions being for everyone. It is clear that each of those ancient cultures developed their own concepts of deity, many of them totally independantly and thus have entirely different ideas about divinity, worship, ritual, the afterlife and everything else.
Your idea that one God gave one revelation to all peoples, and then periodically delivers updates to that revelation is flawed because of this diversity. Each religion believes they are the one true religion, or at least the most efficient way of understanding God or ourselves.

You can be a Buddhist monk if you put the work in, you must understand the Buddhist religion, the Buddhist teachings and the Buddhist point of view. You can't walk into a Buddhist monastery with a solid understanding of Christian doctrine and expect to take the role of a Buddhist monk without abandoning the Christian concepts of salvation, judgement, sin and afterlife.

Therefore, it is easy to see that each religion develops in a form of isolation, and that to truly understand that religion and any scripture that it has produced, you must understand it from that single perspective alone. Reading what you want into the texts that don't belong to your tradition won't work.

I want to tell people what God is like? More than anything I want people to try to find a way to believe that God does not kill. Do you believe He kills? Is this what you are fighting for?

If God made the universe, or even if He only designed the blueprint, then he would know that the Earth periodically passes close the asteroid belt, at which time we are vunerable to extraterrestrial impact. If God knows this and does nothing, or especially if He designed it this way, then yes He kills.
If God created the universe in such a way that carnivorous animals such as the tiger evolve, and then a tiger kills a man because of God's design, then yes He kills.

 

[ProfLogic]

[/size]
Fine, no one sane ever thought the Earth was flat.

Does this include the religious leaders who chastized astronomers' work in the early century that said the world was flat?

 

[Super Universe]

Each of those cultures developed their own concept of deity but here's the thing, if each, or even some, have revelation from God (or angel) then why is the religion different? They should all be the same and say the same thing.

My view is that they are essentially the same. So what Islam calls God Allah and others say Yahweh, is agua truly different than water? Religions attempt to explain things that are unexplainable but revelation is always ahead of it's time, it leads us upward toward spiritual truth but not all of us can climb the mountain at the same pace.

How does Hinduism differ from Judaism? In language, names, and other superflous things it does but what about the substance? Does Hinduism preach that killing is acceptable, that adultery is as well? Does it say that you should never forgive? Does anything in Judaism say that there is not seven chakra's in the body?

Your view is that the most diversity in faith is found when you compare one culture's religion with another but truly as much diversity is found within a particular faith, perhaps not within a particular church but in any sizeable faith there is much diversity of belief.

Why does a Buddhist monk do that violates any of Jesus teachings? Perhaps a monk would never become baptized and this may not be acceptable to some radical parts of Christianity but tell me what you think? Isn't a Buddhist monk as good, or better Christian, as many Christians? Or is ritual what really matters?

So you believe that God kills simply because He does not stop an asteroid from hitting the earth. Can you not build a bunker underground and live there to protect yourself if that is your fear? Why don't people do this instead of blaming God?

Also, no one truly dies. This temporary existence in the flesh is not what's important, it's not lasting, no human has ever lived forever. What you learn here is the only thing that matters.

 

[Halcyon]

My view is that they are essentially the same. So what Islam calls God Allah and others say Yahweh, is agua truly different than water? Religions attempt to explain things that are unexplainable but revelation is always ahead of it's time, it leads us upward toward spiritual truth but not all of us can climb the mountain at the same pace.

How does Hinduism differ from Judaism? In language, names, and other superflous things it does but what about the substance? Does Hinduism preach that killing is acceptable, that adultery is as well? Does it say that you should never forgive? Does anything in Judaism say that there is not seven chakra's in the body?

So, what about the Aztecs? It was common religious practice for them to indulge in human sacrifice, it was a core part of their belief system. Do God simply abandon those people, not offer them any divine revelation?

Why does a Buddhist monk do that violates any of Jesus teachings? Perhaps a monk would never become baptized and this may not be acceptable to some radical parts of Christianity but tell me what you think? Isn't a Buddhist monk as good, or better Christian, as many Christians? Or is ritual what really matters?

So, your basis of revelation is entirely based upon morality?

So you believe that God kills simply because He does not stop an asteroid from hitting the earth. Can you not build a bunker underground and live there to protect yourself if that is your fear? Why don't people do this instead of blaming God?

I'd like to see the starving people of Ethiopia build an underground bunker capable of surviving God's incoming asteroids.

Also, no one truly dies. This temporary existence in the flesh is not what's important, it's not lasting, no human has ever lived forever. What you learn here is the only thing that matters.

So why all the fuss about the OT God and his smiting?

 

[Super Universe]

Human sacrifice is an ancient human tribal tradition, not just an Aztec one. Usually the human sacrificed was a captured enemy. That's part of the reason that revelation told certain people to sacrifice animals because if these ancient people felt the need to sacrifice something then at least have it be an animal instead of a human being.

God abandon's no one. He is with you now as you ponder your response. Through your soul He feels everything that you feel, He sees and hears everything that you do. Did you notice the five white wisps (the five human senses) that connect the human with the God figure in the Wingmakers Chamber painting?

My basis for believing something is revelation is this: It must fit within the confines of what I have determined God to be and this is that God is love. Anything that is against this is not from God. But the angels do make, I won't say mistakes but lets just say they are not as perfect as God is. Nothing is.

Starving people in Ethiopia. But humans could end all starvation in a week. There is plenty of food but you blame God for our actions? Should He force a persons hand and make them give up their SUV? The purpose of the universe is not for third dimensional life experiments (humans) to have happy lives. Do you ever look up into the night sky and scream "Why didn't you make me rich?" You learn as much, or more, from adversity as you do from beauty.

Why all the fuss? Because people choose to believe that God is evil, that He is jealous, that He does harm, that He kills. If you believe this then you have tossed aside all internal control over your own values. Instead of judging everything by your own, self taught, knowledge of right and wrong you pull out your ten commandments card and see if something is allowed just because someone 4,000 years ago received a great new (new to them) revelation to help them stop killing and harming others.

It's time to evolve.

 

[Halcyon]

My basis for believing something is revelation is this: It must fit within the confines of what I have determined God to be and this is that God is love. Anything that is against this is not from God. But the angels do make, I won't say mistakes but lets just say they are not as perfect as God is. Nothing is.

The part i bolded is a very dangerous position to take, you're limiting God to your own ideals. Any revelation you did receive, like you say, would be judged upon your ideals, not God's. You can't ever learn any truth if you view the world through a tinted lens.

The purpose of the universe is not for third dimensional life experiments (humans) to have happy lives. Do you ever look up into the night sky and scream "Why didn't you make me rich?" You learn as much, or more, from adversity as you do from beauty.

Then what is the purpose? Surely a loving God would want us to be happy?

Isn't having a view of God that encapsulates all aspects of the universe more "realistic" than a God only of love?

 

[Super Universe]

A dangerous position to take? Uh, how so? So instead of trusting my own instincts I should trust those of a man who lived 4,000 years ago who didn't know what caused the ground to shake and lightning to strike?

I'm limiting God? I guarantee that my idea of God is enormously more complex than most others idea.

God would want us to be happy? Sigh... It's not about you. It never was. It never will be.

God only love? The only limits are what you place on your own understanding. Your human idea of love covers perhaps 1% of what God truly is. If I fully explained to you what my definition of "God is love", it would fill a book the size of the bible.

 

[ProfLogic]

A dangerous position to take? Uh, how so? So instead of trusting my own instincts I should trust those of a man who lived 4,000 years ago who didn't know what caused the ground to shake and lightning to strike?

I'm limiting God? I guarantee that my idea of God is enormously more complex than most others idea.

God would want us to be happy? Sigh... It's not about you. It never was. It never will be.

God only love? The only limits are what you place on your own understanding. Your human idea of love covers perhaps 1% of what God truly is. If I fully explained to you what my definition of "God is love", it would fill a book the size of the bible.

Good points... In addition I always think the self procalimed god has made itself scarce purely because it now knows humanity had been educated enough out the natural disasters that it might be put to the test and not the other way around. It might actually be afraid of hearing the words "prove it" to the educated. In the old times, they took the words of their leaders since most lacks the knowledge that now people are equip with, their education and a sophisticated logical and thinking process.

About the god you refer to, I would not worship it or build gold laced woship places for it.

 

[ProfLogic]

It's a moot question. Even the statement itself says, "when you see the doors." Of course people pay attention to the doors...that's why they're there! They're ornate and breathtaking for a purpose. They're supposed to be in-your-face noticed! The statement merely warns the viewer to pay attention to what the doors represent, and not what they're made of. Obviously, you weren't paying attention to that caveat, yourself.:sleep:

The point is the object itself gets noticed more often....

 

[dawny0826]

Lets discuss materialism... If it did not need it, why did it not just ask mankind to give honor to it through their hearts and mind? Why the command to built things for it? It had an alterior motive.

Or God uses the tangible at times to teach us and test us...

Now greed, the story of noah might be a perspective of greed... why is it not happy if only a few of its claimed creations believe in it? It claimed to have killed everything except for Noah and his family and 2 sets of every land animal. That act seems to be greed and not love.... otherwise it would have let people be.

These people were distroyed because of their lack of obedience. Period.

You need to see some of the churches to get a better perspective and also look at the history of the spanish conquistadors and the roman empire... God's inspiration is always debateable because the missionary that were with the explorers and conquistadors might actual think they where spreading its words to newly conquered people but as usual if people did not follow they are considered evil and needs to be destroyed as what the bible has shown in genesis.

People are flawed. I'm not going to disagree with you that people have done wrong, claiming that their deeds were inspired by God. People suck. Which is why we need God.

As I mentioned, it could have just ask for the hearts and the minds of people and not their possesions.... The quote gives future generations an excuse to gather precious metals in any way.. harmful or not to their fellow mankind.. as long as they do it in honor of their religion. That to me seems wrong.

No. I think future generations are held accountable for their actions as were those of prior generations.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course...

God is God. I'm not in the position to question His authority. And in my life...this is a good thing...

 

[Super Universe]

About the god you refer to, I would not worship it or build gold laced woship places for it.

I have visited many countries and in all the world the most beautiful building is the Vatican. To me it is a perfect example of what humanity can do when we put our minds toward creating beauty.

But to me there is no place of worship greater than any other. Walking through a grove of Sequoia trees is about as good as it gets for me, a field of wildflowers is pretty high on my list also.

 

[Halcyon]

A dangerous position to take? Uh, how so? So instead of trusting my own instincts I should trust those of a man who lived 4,000 years ago who didn't know what caused the ground to shake and lightning to strike?

If you can't see how "It must fit within the confines of what I have determined God to be..." is a dangerous theological position, then i don't know how else to explain it to you.

I'm limiting God? I guarantee that my idea of God is enormously more complex than most others idea.

Good for you.

God would want us to be happy? Sigh... It's not about you. It never was. It never will be.

Who is it about then, you?

God only love? The only limits are what you place on your own understanding. Your human idea of love covers perhaps 1% of what God truly is. If I fully explained to you what my definition of "God is love", it would fill a book the size of the bible.

Then i think you think about the concept of love a little too much.

 

[Super Universe]

Who is it about then, you?

Your entire view, everything, starts with yourself. Maybe if you look up at the night sky and realize that 99.999% of everything is not here, it's out there.

It's not about humans. The earth is just the latest and greatest new thing in the universe but once we have evolved to the point that we all know God, we all feel His presence within us, then another evolving planet will be the latest and greatest new thing in the universe.

Then i think you think about the concept of love a little too much.

Fine then. If I'm going to choose to do too much of something, better that than other things. Anyway, your still stuck on the human idea of love.

Did you come up with an original idea yet?

 

[Halcyon]

Your entire view, everything, starts with yourself. Maybe if you look up at the night sky and realize that 99.999% of everything is not here, it's out there.

Actually, 100% of it is in my mind.

It's not about humans. The earth is just the latest and greatest new thing in the universe but once we have evolved to the point that we all know God, we all feel His presence within us, then another evolving planet will be the latest and greatest new thing in the universe.

I'm pretty damned sure there are newer things in the universe than the Earth. And who's to judge what is great?

Fine then. If I'm going to choose to do too much of something, better that than other things. Anyway, your still stuck on the human idea of love.

Whereas you're not human?

Did you come up with an original idea yet?

Sure. Lettuce Meringue Pie. :eat:

 

[Feathers in Hair]

*eats some Lettuce Meringue Pie* While I think you've already debated excellently, Halcyon, I think this is your best idea, yet!

 

[Super Universe]

Sure. Lettuce Meringue Pie. :eat:

Lettuce Meringue Pie?

That's an abstract idea, not original.

You did not create the lettuce, you did not create meringue, nor did you invent pie. You just took three things that already exist and put them together in a new way.

Try again.

 

[Halcyon]

Lettuce Meringue Pie?

That's an abstract idea, not original.

You did not create the lettuce, you did not create meringue, nor did you invent pie. You just took three things that already exist and put them together in a new way.

Try again.

Fine, a Snarnighil.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Works for me, Halcyon.