Why the west leaving the Christainity ?

[cablescavenger]

is this a consequnce of modernity (technologie )
it's consequnce of secularism ( religion get away from the politics )
or it's the consequence that the Bible contian errors (edited by human )

as i see here in this forum most of the western people are atheists !!!

and some western reports said :
many of the christain convert to Islam or to other religions .

Is that so

 

[arcanum]

good point you post here . i guess the science is have double factor , maybe it's make some too religeous , and maybe some others deny the religion , i guess more the christians whom leave the christianity , because of this sentence (had no sense ) , they believe inside their seflves that the Bible ,it's just lies or blah blah .... the paradoxe here , insipte the developement and technologie in the west and media with make muslims terrosites , we found more people convert to Islam !!!

If Islamic countries didn't have such a stranglehold over people's minds there would probably be a lot of people leaving Islam too.

 

[beerisit]

That first one is likely because so many atheists are people who are just not that introspective by nature, and are uninterested in deeper, philosophical questions...such as what purpose our lives have? A lot of everyday atheists are just materialists who just live a day to day hedonistic existence. This is especially true of younger self-described atheists, who read something by Nietzsche or Ayn Rand that justifies the basic self-centered attitude that a teenager or 20 something will have. Some grow out of that stage if they get married and start thinking about how to raise their own children, some may never grow out of it!

Am I allowed to laugh heartily at this?

 

[beerisit]

You have to read between the lines of what people are saying to make that judgement. Keep in mind that the type of person I'm talking about probably isn't even being honest with themselves so you're going to have to read between the lines. I listen to the gripes they have about Christianity. Sex is usually number one and often the only complaint. I see the respect most people have for Jesus' teachings that aren't regarding sexual behavior. I see how often couples engaged in fornication come to church once they get married.

Are you claiming that only christians are honest with themselves or is it all theists, including muslims and taoists and pagans? Just wondering?

 

[Revoltingest]

I've become convinced that many of these "atheists" and "agnostics" simply reject God because they want to indulge in the sexual behaviors forbidden to them and only afterward try to justify their behavior by saying God doesn't exist.

Were that theory true, it wouldn't explain why some believers engage in sexual practices which we heathens find abhorrent.
We don't need to excuse or justify anything.

 

[Godobeyer]

How big has the decrease in Christians been in America? I found that, between 1990 and 2008, the percent of people who identified themselves as Christians dropped about ten basis points -- from 86% of the population down to 76% of the population.

1990 to 2008 saw the political rise of Christian Fundamentalism in America. I can't prove it, but I would be willing to gamble that a significant proportion of the decline in Christianity is the result of people getting sick and tired of Fundamentalists.

that's big drop for the christianity !!!
which mean next 100 year ,may the christians will disspear in USA !!!

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Were that theory true, it wouldn't explain why some believers engage in sexual practices which we heathens find abhorrent.
We don't need to excuse or justify anything.

How often to we really hear people say "you know, I realize that behavior x is wickedness but I just don't feel like giving it up. I just don't care who my behavior hurts."? You might hear it from people struggling with chemical addictions but that's about it. Other than that, it's just one convoluted excuse after another from people trying to justifying what they want to do.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Are you claiming that only christians are honest with themselves or is it all theists, including muslims and taoists and pagans? Just wondering?

I'm claiming that people who engage in wickedness usually lie to themselves in order to justify that behavior. Yes, Christians are more than capable of this.

 

[Caladan]

Wickedness? :areyoucra am I the only one who finds the use of this word a bit anachronistic?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Wickedness? :areyoucra am I the only one who finds the use of this word a bit anachronistic?

In western culture it absolutely is. Keep in mind that this is a culture where the definition of evil is being viewed more and more as subjective.

 

[Caladan]

In western culture it absolutely is. Keep in mind that this is a culture where the definition of evil is being viewed more and more as subjective.

How is this exclusive only to western culture? furthermore, can we really be certain that in other periods in history some people did not think that society is degenerating without restraint?

 

[crocusj]

That first one is likely because so many atheists are people who are just not that introspective by nature, and are uninterested in deeper, philosophical questions...such as what purpose our lives have? A lot of everyday atheists are just materialists who just live a day to day hedonistic existence. This is especially true of younger self-described atheists, who read something by Nietzsche or Ayn Rand that justifies the basic self-centered attitude that a teenager or 20 something will have. Some grow out of that stage if they get married and start thinking about how to raise their own children, some may never grow out of it!

Really? And these philosophically uninterested atheists read Nietzsche??? And what is an atheist if not "self-described"? Of course youth is hedonistic but - lets face it - a seven year old is not going to ask; is this all there is? Your post is actually a bit insulting, it implies that there is something implicitly wrong thinking about simply not believing. Well, I simply don't believe. I need dig no deeper than the idea of any god is just so much intellectual, philisophical and scientific introspection and that the shallowness of my reasoning merely reflects the pool that I wade in.

 

[besart]

The west is leaving christianity because it is an antiquated religion that doesn’t “logically” answer our questions. In the age of science and technology, people tend to use logic more to make sense of the world around them and you cannot mix logic with any of these religions.

 

[work in progress]

Yeah I'm infatuated with people's sex lives because I stress how big of a component it is in people's spiritual lives.

Thank you Mr. Santorum! I notice that your responses have little or nothing to do with the points made by atheists. Such as this one, where you were challenged to explain why atheists/agnostics have the lowest divorce rates.

I'm sure a lot of young people (like myself 35 years ago) who ran away from fundamentalist land, go through at least a temporary hedonistic stage, and want to enjoy everything that was forbidden to them in their formerly constricted lives. At some point you have to allow people to be themselves.

Some people are impulsive, hedonistic, and will be prone to all sorts of problems by doing a lot of things without thinking through the consequences of their actions. They will either grow out of that stage and settle down, and have a life where they can be healthy and have stable relationships...or they won't! And no amount of Jesus Juice is going to change that fact! As we have seen many, many times, it's the obsessive, uptight Santorums that do the most dramatic swan dives into disaster when they fall off their heavenly pedestal. It's been pointed out many times already, that the more secular states in the U.S. - like Vermont - have the lowest divorce rates, and teen pregnancy - STD rates as well. And the most God-fearing state - Mississippi - has the highest numbers in all the sin crimes, as well as having high murder rates. So why isn't all that worshipping Jesus fixing these problems in the religious states, since you want to make Vermont look more like Mississippi?

 

[crocusj]

I've become convinced that many of these "atheists" and "agnostics" simply reject God because they want to indulge in the sexual behaviors forbidden to them and only afterward try to justify their behavior by saying God doesn't exist.

I like this post. It is the most sexually potent post I have seen, it has that deviant oooh! factor.I certainly want to partake of sexual behaviour that requires - as a prerequisite - the denial of the existence of a god (that would be Biblical sex!!!). Unless, of course (or should that be obviously), it's that homosexual thingy god's seem to have such hang ups about (although I would assume that any sexual morals would still apply vis a vis the individuals regardless that the act itself was taboo? The whole thing is a minefield!).

There is no doubt that some of us are/should be more ashamed of our sexual behaviour than others (and therefore more likely to condemn it and find a book that agrees with them) but better to look in the mirror, surely, than to look in a book. You assume your god to be some sort of moral authority and that it is this authority that atheists reject, you assume too much.

 

[work in progress]

Really? And these philosophically uninterested atheists read Nietzsche??? And what is an atheist if not "self-described"? Of course youth is hedonistic but - lets face it - a seven year old is not going to ask; is this all there is? Your post is actually a bit insulting, it implies that there is something implicitly wrong thinking about simply not believing. Well, I simply don't believe. I need dig no deeper than the idea of any god is just so much intellectual, philisophical and scientific introspection and that the shallowness of my reasoning merely reflects the pool that I wade in.

Well! If you haven't read any of my previous posts, I consider myself an atheist, but I don't consider atheism as a cause to try to build a movement around, like some have been trying to do in the last 10 years. I tried it out, and found that a lot of atheists....such as the Nietzsche and Ayn Rand fans, that seemed to predominate at our local atheist/humanist meetup groups, were not people I had anything else in common with...or even really liked that much! We also don't agree on whether or not it is even feasible to try to create a world without religion.

Since, as you note, atheism is about not believing, atheists are left with a void to fill with things they do believe in. And it's when we fill the gap, that we all go off in different directions. The only clear thing we can rally around is freedom of conscience to believe what we wish....which I don't believe our Muslim threadstarter shares, or the Christian fundamentalists who have piped in also! That is the real danger here posed by religion. But, our concerns of freedom of conscience are shared by the majority of people who have a variety of religious and/or spiritual beliefs, so I don't feel a need to create a separate atheist movement to advance goals that would only apply to atheists.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I'm not too impressed with the stats on agnostic/atheistic marriage as we both know that many of these couples are forsaking marriage altogether in favor of cohabitation. There's also a stat you didn't include in your comparison of Vermont and Mississippi, that of rates of abortion. Vermont's rate of abortion in more than twice as high as that in Mississippi. You are right about one thing however. The Christian community has failed to distinguish itself when it comes to issues of morality, especially when compared to their non-believing neighbors.


Abortion Rate - Kaiser State Health Facts

Thank you Mr. Santorum! I notice that your responses have little or nothing to do with the points made by atheists. Such as this one, where you were challenged to explain why atheists/agnostics have the lowest divorce rates.

I'm sure a lot of young people (like myself 35 years ago) who ran away from fundamentalist land, go through at least a temporary hedonistic stage, and want to enjoy everything that was forbidden to them in their formerly constricted lives. At some point you have to allow people to be themselves.

Some people are impulsive, hedonistic, and will be prone to all sorts of problems by doing a lot of things without thinking through the consequences of their actions. They will either grow out of that stage and settle down, and have a life where they can be healthy and have stable relationships...or they won't! And no amount of Jesus Juice is going to change that fact! As we have seen many, many times, it's the obsessive, uptight Santorums that do the most dramatic swan dives into disaster when they fall off their heavenly pedestal. It's been pointed out many times already, that the more secular states in the U.S. - like Vermont - have the lowest divorce rates, and teen pregnancy - STD rates as well. And the most God-fearing state - Mississippi - has the highest numbers in all the sin crimes, as well as having high murder rates. So why isn't all that worshipping Jesus fixing these problems in the religious states, since you want to make Vermont look more like Mississippi?

 

[crocusj]

Well! If you haven't read any of my previous posts, I consider myself an atheist, but I don't consider atheism as a cause to try to build a movement around, like some have been trying to do in the last 10 years. I tried it out, and found that a lot of atheists....such as the Nietzsche and Ayn Rand fans, that seemed to predominate at our local atheist/humanist meetup groups, were not people I had anything else in common with...or even really liked that much! We also don't agree on whether or not it is even feasible to try to create a world without religion.

Since, as you note, atheism is about not believing, atheists are left with a void to fill with things they do believe in. And it's when we fill the gap, that we all go off in different directions. The only clear thing we can rally around is freedom of conscience to believe what we wish....which I don't believe our Muslim threadstarter shares, or the Christian fundamentalists who have piped in also! That is the real danger here posed by religion. But, our concerns of freedom of conscience are shared by the majority of people who have a variety of religious and/or spiritual beliefs, so I don't feel a need to create a separate atheist movement to advance goals that would only apply to atheists.

I do understand that you are an atheist and I do understand that you find atheistic "movements" problematical but I do not think that most atheists have a gap to fill. That many appear apathetic is the the nature of the beast, since atheism is a solution to nothing at all and those who raise it above that will always be agenda driven and might as well include a deity and are, I guess, human. But, why should you share more than that particular common ground? Oft times, the worst that a Christian brings to the table of "freedom of conscience" is an imaginary friend who requires no place setting and any goals we have that are exclusive are probably best, as you say, avoided.

 

[sojourner]

The west is leaving christianity because it is an antiquated religion that doesn’t “logically” answer our questions. In the age of science and technology, people tend to use logic more to make sense of the world around them and you cannot mix logic with any of these religions.

And yet, with the most recent upsurge in technology, since the advent of the personal computer and the internet, etc., there has been an upsurge in people searching for deeper spiritual meaning.

 

[Madhuri]

Hi Madhuri,

I would say that "freedom from religion" is more likely to lead the individual toward the beliefs he or she truly holds as opposed to being a hinderance to religion. JMO

best,
swampy

I agree. My post was not meant to imply that this is a good or bad thing.