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Why There Can be an Objective Morality Even Without a God

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
As i said, if it works for you.

I am not getting into the Baha'i circular argument again, it is a futile waste of time. Facts dont seem to mean much in that discussion.

If you are interested in reviewing a science based view with open eyes you are welcome

May peace always be with you. Consider it us you now offering my eyes are closed.

I see Science without God as dangerous and God without science as superstition.

I have found my balance with this and I see no point in trying to push either view as better than the other.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
My morality includes all, other peoples is not my problem unless they make it my problem.

Again, it is not your prerogative to judge other cultures unless it has a negative effect.

I can assure you, if one person suffers we all suffer. It is our problem.

It is not I that judges.

Regards Tony
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
May peace always be with you. Consider it us you now offering my eyes are closed.

I see Science without God as dangerous and God without science as superstition.

I have found my balance with this and I see no point in trying to push either view as better than the other.

Regards Tony

I see religion can be dangerous and is superstitious to a very high degree. And science (without god) is what enables you to live a comfortable, healthy life and post on RF that your dream of science can be dangerous.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I see religion can be dangerous and is superstitious to a very high degree. And science (without god) is what enables you to live a comfortable, healthy life and post on RF that your dream of science can be dangerous.

I wish you well and leave that with you.

Regards Tony
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I can assure you, if one person suffers we all suffer. It is our problem.

It is not I that judges.

Regards Tony

So you dont know the mores of tribe X. Never met them, never even heard of them. They perform a rite that causes one person discomfort but the riite binds the tribe together.

My question is, how does this complete lack of knowledge make you suffer?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I'm not dancing around anything. Our problem is that you don't read well.

This will be the third time I've explained my opinion on what makes something good or bad for you. So, I'll just quote the first two:

1. I think the good moral instincts are crucial to the survival of the species.

2. IMO, the human instincts we refer to as 'conscience' guide us to refrain from certain acts (wrong-bad) because they threaten the survival of our species. That leaves other acts as justifiable-good that enhance our chances of survival.

The bubblegum caper? Cooperation in a worthy cause is a key to survival. Theft is usually (not always) an uncooperative act. So, conscience will usually (not always) signal theft as wrongful.
That simply isn´t true. Right and wrong vary from culture to culture across the globe. Slavery still exists, with no compunction and is acceptable, good, in the cultures where it exists. Survival has nothing to do with it. Up until a century ago, cannibalism was an acceptable and good part of a number of cultures, the practice being an antihesis to long term survival.

The idea that morality is somehow hard wired as an evolutionary survival mechanism, I think, fails.
Morality may exist in some cases related to survival, nevertheless, there are a plethora of behaviors that are good, or bad, with the determination having nothing to do with survival.

Consciences change, the concepts of right and wrong change, in individuals, or societies, for reasons totally separate from survival.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
That simply isn´t true. Right and wrong vary from culture to culture across the globe. Slavery still exists, with no compunction and is acceptable, good, in the cultures where it exists.
Wikipedia disagrees:

"Historically, slavery has been legalized institutionally in most societies at some point, but is now outlawed in all recognized countries The last country to officially abolish slavery was Mauritania in 2007."

The slavery that still exists is now considered illegal and immoral in all the cultures of the world. The trend of moral progress to abolish legal slavery began many centuries ago but didn't get into a full-blown trend until around the year 1700, so it took three hundred years to sweep across all cultures.

The trend to treat women as equals won't take nearly that long to sweep across all cultures because modern communications technology will move the idea from mind to mind much faster than in the past.

Conscience doesn't vary from culture to culture. Cultural biases like slavery and the unequal treatment of women only make it seem so. In fact, it is conscience that drives the moral progress. When people are made to examine their consciences on immoral customs which create cultural biases disappear.
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
Wikipedia disagrees:

"Historically, slavery has been legalized institutionally in most societies at some point, but is now outlawed in all recognized countries The last country to officially abolish slavery was Mauritania in 2007."

The slavery that still exists is now considered illegal and immoral in all the cultures of the world. The trend of moral progress to abolish legal slavery began many centuries ago but didn't get into a full-blown trend until around the year 1700, so it took three hundred years to sweep across all cultures.

The trend to treat women as equals won't take nearly that long to sweep across all cultures because modern communications technology will move the idea from mind to mind much faster than in the past.

Conscience doesn't vary from culture to culture. Cultural biases like slavery and the unequal treatment of women only make it seem so. In fact, it is conscience that drives the moral progress. When people are made to examine their consciences on immoral customs which create cultural biases disappear.
Slavery is culturally accepted in certain muslim country's, it is considered moral. Laws written to appease world governing bodies are irrelevant when slavery is moral according to the rimary determi
Wikipedia disagrees:

"Historically, slavery has been legalized institutionally in most societies at some point, but is now outlawed in all recognized countries The last country to officially abolish slavery was Mauritania in 2007."

The slavery that still exists is now considered illegal and immoral in all the cultures of the world. The trend of moral progress to abolish legal slavery began many centuries ago but didn't get into a full-blown trend until around the year 1700, so it took three hundred years to sweep across all cultures.

The trend to treat women as equals won't take nearly that long to sweep across all cultures because modern communications technology will move the idea from mind to mind much faster than in the past.

Conscience doesn't vary from culture to culture. Cultural biases like slavery and the unequal treatment of women only make it seem so. In fact, it is conscience that drives the moral progress. When people are made to examine their consciences on immoral customs which create cultural biases disappear.
Slavery is accepted morally in some country's, because morality isn't determined by laws. 80% of Americans consider late term abortions patently immoral, yet they are legal. In certain muslim country's, to appease the rest of the world, slavery is illegal, yet it is considered moral, because the koran says it is moral. The law is ignored by many.

If your theorem were true, then slavery would never have existed, since consciences inherently know right from wrong.
The fact that it has been considered moral for most of human history proves that morality changes, consciences change, right and wrong changes.
Conscience simply reflects perceptions of morality, it does not invariably determine "right" morality. What is "right" morality ?
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
If your theorem were true, then slavery would never have existed, since consciences inherently know right from wrong.
Conscience is a moral guide only. People can and do ignore it often for any number of reasons because they have free will.

We humans unfortunately have a bad side to our nature. The arrogant need for the strong to bully the weak is part of it. Slave ownership is just one symptom of that arrogant need to bully the weak.

Your argument is what I call an "argument by labeling." You label both good and bad behavior as effects of "conscience" and that's all there is to your argument. Guilt is one of the signals we get from our instinctive conscience. Do people feel guilt after they do something good?
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I often hear some statement along the lines of, "If a god does not exist, then there can be no objective morality".

As it happens, that sort of statement suffers greatly from the misfortune of being false.

It is possible, for example, that Platonic forms or ideals of morality exist even though no god exists.

Note: I am not attempting here to present an argument for the existence of an objective morality.

Well, obviously.

The statement that without God there cannot be objective morality is circular. The one who believes that is forced to admit that objective morality is what God thinks is good. It cannot possibly give a definition that is independent of God. Ergo, it puts the conclusion in the premise.

What is ridicolous is that they actually use it to prove that God exists.

Ciao

- viole
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Conscience is a moral guide only. People can and do ignore it often for any number of reasons because they have free will.

We humans unfortunately have a bad side to our nature. The arrogant need for the strong to bully the weak is part of it. Slave ownership is just one symptom of that arrogant need to bully the weak.

Your argument is what I call an "argument by labeling." You label both good and bad behavior as effects of "conscience" and that's all there is to your argument. Guilt is one of the signals we get from our instinctive conscience. Do people feel guilt after they do something good?
It is irrelevant as to why someone does something. The issue is whether they believe what they do is good or bad.

You choose to now include free will in your argument. That to is irrelevant.

If instinctive factors determine in a person, or in a society, what is right or wrong, then it has been hideously misguided, solely because of the different perceptions of good and bad in historical cultures.

Once again, the issue isn´t particular acts, or even why particular acts are committed.

The issue is right or wrong as determined by those committing the acts.

The Donner party had to resort to cannibalism, their motive was survival. However, most felt cannibalism was inherently wrong, and they felt remorse.

The cannibals of the south seas believed it was good , and they felt elation, though it was very bad physically ultimately for itś adherents

I don´t understand how your instinctive conscience works given these two circumstances.

It appears to be as inconsistent and flexible as a glob of mercury.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
It is irrelevant as to why someone does something. The issue is whether they believe what they do is good or bad.
It's not irrelevant in this discussion because you are blaming their bad behavior on conscience. You are assuming that if they act badly that their conscience misled them.

You choose to now include free will in your argument. That to is irrelevant.
No, it isn't irrelevant because free will allows people to disregard the guidance they get from conscience.

If instinctive factors determine in a person, or in a society, what is right or wrong, then it has been hideously misguided, solely because of the different perceptions of good and bad in historical cultures.
Is the concept of a cultural bias beyond your understanding? The belief that it is okay to own people as slaves was once a cultural bias that conscience has wiped out.

When something changes, the change has to be caused by something else. If your position is that slavery was allowed by conscience at one time, what changed it? You are left without a cause for change. Conscience didn't change itself.

Are you a sociopath? Don't you have a conscience? Don't you sometimes feel guilt? Don't you sometimes consider an action and then hold back because it feels wrong?

Where did you get the idea that the people who hurt others think they're doing the right thing? The people we hear about now and then who do that are considered insane. Not so when their immoral acts are caused by a cultural bias (in some cultures, we know that a woman who kills her husband in self-defense is unlikely to get a fair trial). But, eventually this cultural bias will be wiped out just as the cultural bias that condoned legal slavery was wiped out.
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
It's not irrelevant in this discussion because you are blaming their bad behavior on conscience. You are assuming that if they act badly that their conscience misled them.

No, it isn't irrelevant because free will allows people to disregard the guidance they get from conscience.

Is the concept of a cultural bias beyond your understanding? The belief that it is okay to own people as slaves was once a cultural bias that conscience has wiped out.

When something changes, the change has to be caused by something else. If your position is that slavery was allowed by conscience at one time, what changed it? You are left without a cause for change. Conscience didn't change itself.

Are you a sociopath? Don't you have a conscience? Don't you sometimes feel guilt? Don't you sometimes consider an action and then hold back because it feels wrong?

Where did you get the idea that the people who hurt others think they're doing the right thing? The people we hear about now and then who do that are considered insane. Not so when their immoral acts are caused by a cultural bias (in some cultures, we know that a woman who kills her husband in self-defense is unlikely to get a fair trial). But, eventually this cultural bias will be wiped out just as the cultural bias that condoned legal slavery was wiped out.
Finally you make my point. Conscience isn´t organic ,it is malleable thus right and wrong are as well. So your idea that an unbiased jury will judge right fails. They will judge based upon what the law says is right or wrong. The law will reflect what the society that exists determines what is right or wrong. This determination will be made based upon a host of factors. As you stated, mor´es change, the society changes, the law changes. Without a yardstick to measure right and wrong, that reflects the society, that is acceptable to the populace, there is no right or wrong. There is no organic, inherent, inborn sense of right and wrong, except in the most primal sense.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Finally you make my point. Conscience isn´t organic ,it is malleable thus right and wrong are as well. So your idea that an unbiased jury will judge right fails. They will judge based upon what the law says is right or wrong. The law will reflect what the society that exists determines what is right or wrong. This determination will be made based upon a host of factors. As you stated, mor´es change, the society changes, the law changes. Without a yardstick to measure right and wrong, that reflects the society, that is acceptable to the populace, there is no right or wrong. There is no organic, inherent, inborn sense of right and wrong, except in the most primal sense.
It's not surprising that you don't get it. There's no topic that generates more confusion than Morality.

I picked up a textbook on Psychology not long ago. Its authors were still teaching Kohlberg's Stages of Development explanation for morality which is about 60 years old. It never had any science to support it and never will.

I'm not claiming that current research fully supports my explanation but it's getting there. About 20 years ago, Jon Haidt's research found that the judgments of conscience are intuitive. I prefer the word 'instinctive.' All of the science since has supported Haidt's position.

Haidt's finding was a huge development. It challenged the centuries-old popular opinion that the judgments of conscience are products of reason. Most moral philosophy is based on it. The Catholic Church's teachings have been based on it. Thomas Aquinas put it in their catechism.

If the judgments of conscience are instinctive and not judgments of reason, then the Catholic Church should not be giving moral guidance.

Years ago, I realized the popular explanation was a myth when I started with the axiom: All knowledge begins in the senses. I reasoned that since our long-ago ancestors could not see, hear, smell or taste the difference between right and wrong, they must have felt it; they had the very same instincts that today we refer to as 'conscience.' In other words, if not for the instincts that we call conscience, we humans would know absolutely nothing about morality.
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
It's not surprising that you don't get it. There's no topic that generates more confusion than Morality.

I picked up a textbook on Psychology not long ago. Its authors were still teaching Kohlberg's Stages of Development explanation for morality which is about 60 years old. It never had any science to support it and never will.

I'm not claiming that current research fully supports my explanation but it's getting there. About 20 years ago, Jon Haidt's research found that the judgments of conscience are intuitive. I prefer the word 'instinctive.' All of the science since has supported Haidt's position.

Haidt's finding was a huge development. It challenged the centuries-old popular opinion that the judgments of conscience are products of reason. Most moral philosophy is based on it. The Catholic Church's teachings have been based on it. Thomas Aquinas put it in their catechism.

If the judgments of conscience are instinctive and not judgments of reason, then the Catholic Church should not be giving moral guidance.

Years ago, I realized the popular explanation was a myth when I started with the axiom: All knowledge begins in the senses. I reasoned that since our long-ago ancestors could not see, hear, smell or taste the difference between right and wrong, they must have felt it; they had the very same instincts that today we refer to as 'conscience.' In other words, if not for the instincts that we call conscience, we humans would know absolutely nothing about morality.
We simply will have to disagree on this. I have given a number of examples where basic instinct leads to behavior with no practical or moral purpose. Morality is learned, not instinctual. Have you ever read the book, ¨Lord of the Flies¨ ? It illustrates perfectly the breakdown of morality as one reverts to the dictates of instinct. The conscience is not an inbred guide to morality. It too is trained, shaped by learning within the context of family or culture. A Sikh has learned, and believes, that he must wear a turban, it would be immoral for him to cut his hair and not wear it. An Orthodox Jew would die before he ate a ham sandwich, he has been taught and believes to do so is highly immoral. Perhaps you can give me specific acts or refraining from acts that you believe are moral, that you further believe are instinctual. That might focus the discussion. Specifics instead of generalities would help.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
80% of Americans consider late term abortions patently immoral, yet they are legal
Drive by pointing out that late term abortions aren't legal in the majority of the US except in medical emergencies. Those less than ten states which did strike down restrictions did so because the law didnt have a clause for medical emergencies or tried to impose clauses too narrow or not physician determination based.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Drive by pointing out that late term abortions aren't legal in the majority of the US except in medical emergencies. Those less than ten states which did strike down restrictions did so because the law didnt have a clause for medical emergencies or tried to impose clauses too narrow or not physician determination based.
You don´t understand roe v wade. IF a physician deems a late term abortion prudent, based upon psychological reasons, not a medical emergency, the abortion is legal. Why ? Because the supremes in roe patched together the unenumerated right of privacy, trusting a physician to declare that for health reasons, including mental health, the baby must die. The supremes specifically stated that these babyś, for the purpose of abortion, are not persons and the entire process is screened by the privacy between a physician and patient, i.e, it is nobody´s business t is done. So, a physician in a state that bans late term abortion may follow state law, yet if he/she and the mother decide the mother might be under psychological duress if the pregnancy continues, whatever form that takes, the baby is killed, and the act is protected by the invulnerable wall of privacy So called late term abortion, few a year, but one murdered baby, oops, non person is too much, kills a viable baby, non person, by brutal means, which could be delivered or birthed by C section, quickly with little or no harm to the mother. The object is to kill the baby.

There certainly are situations where serious physical harm, or death might occur by continuing a pregnancy. Nevertheless, many late term abortions don´t come close to meeting this criteria.

I would reluctantly accept unlimited abortion in the first trimester, and none afterward except for the serious physical harm death criteria. roe must first be overturned or modified, to end the butchery. The left will fight it to their last breath. To them, it is nobodyś business if a mother and doctor decide to kill a late term non person, whatever the reason.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You don´t understand roe v wade. IF a physician deems a late term abortion prudent, based upon psychological reasons, not a medical emergency, the abortion is legal. Why ? Because the supremes in roe patched together the unenumerated right of privacy, trusting a physician to declare that for health reasons, including mental health, the baby must die. The supremes specifically stated that these babyś, for the purpose of abortion, are not persons and the entire process is screened by the privacy between a physician and patient, i.e, it is nobody´s business t is done. So, a physician in a state that bans late term abortion may follow state law, yet if he/she and the mother decide the mother might be under psychological duress if the pregnancy continues, whatever form that takes, the baby is killed, and the act is protected by the invulnerable wall of privacy So called late term abortion, few a year, but one murdered baby, oops, non person is too much, kills a viable baby, non person, by brutal means, which could be delivered or birthed by C section, quickly with little or no harm to the mother. The object is to kill the baby.

There certainly are situations where serious physical harm, or death might occur by continuing a pregnancy. Nevertheless, many late term abortions don´t come close to meeting this criteria.

I would reluctantly accept unlimited abortion in the first trimester, and none afterward except for the serious physical harm death criteria. roe must first be overturned or modified, to end the butchery. The left will fight it to their last breath. To them, it is nobodyś business if a mother and doctor decide to kill a late term non person, whatever the reason.
I dont consider psychological issue outside the realm of medical emergency, especially considering how many people are killed by postpartum depression adding to new mental illness or change in mental illness during pregnancy, and other physical complications which can create or exacerbate mental illness. And I think that should be between doctor and patiant rather than courts to determine those criteria. But I digress. Just adding some dimension to the post.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I dont consider psychological issue outside the realm of medical emergency, especially considering how many people are killed by postpartum depression adding to new mental illness or change in mental illness during pregnancy, and other physical complications which can create or exacerbate mental illness. And I think that should be between doctor and patiant rather than courts to determine those criteria. But I digress. Just adding some dimension to the post.
Taking a human life, based upon two peoples desire and opinion is totally contrary to decency, and the concept of justice. Self given excuses made to ignore the horror of this are just that, excuses.
 
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