Why was a “virgin birth” necessary?

[logician]

Well, the way I see it, if Jesus had been the natural child of Mary and Joseph, He would have been the son of Joseph, not the son of God. He may have been able to do miracles, but they wouldn't really have been His miracles because He wouldn't have been divine. As God's own Son, He was divine. He could do what He did through His own power. And as to why Mary was a virgin, I suppose I'd have to say that when she conceived, she was betrothed to Joseph. She would not have been worthy to marry Joseph had she not been a virgin.

I think the point I was trying to make is that god the father could have "breathed" dvinity into him, born of a virgin or no. The virgin birth, I thought, was a necessity to spare Jesus the shame of original sin, or something like that.

 

[logician]

God himself provided the other 24 chromosomes.

God has chromosomes? That's a new one on me.

 

[Copernicus]

Just a quick question... How many chromosomes do you suspect Jesus had? If Jesus had 46 chromosomes, His father would have been the same species as He was. Not "human" because humans are mortal, but humanlike. Immortal, perfect.

It seems to me that how many chromosomes Jesus had is beside the point, once you accept the concept of miracles. God, having set up the rules in the first place, doesn't have to play by physical rules. Miracles are events that do not conform to physical laws. So it is a waste of time trying to figure out the natural physical conditions under which anything connected with the supernatural makes sense. Jesus could have consisted entirely of pixie dust.

 

[Katzpur]

I think the point I was trying to make is that god the father could have "breathed" dvinity into him, born of a virgin or no. The virgin birth, I thought, was a necessity to spare Jesus the shame of original sin, or something like that.

I don't know. Maybe that's the case in some traditions. I don't believe in original sin myself.

 

[Katzpur]

God has chromosomes? That's a new one on me.

Yeah, it's new to most people. I'm not saying He does or He doesn't. All I'm saying is that if Jesus was truly a human being, he had 46 chromosomes, didn't He? I think we can safely assume that He got one strand of 23 from His mother. Where did the other stand of 23? I'm not trying to prove anything, by the way, but just wanted to throw that idea out there.

 

[Katzpur]

It seems to me that how many chromosomes Jesus had is beside the point, once you accept the concept of miracles.

I agree.

 

[Comicaze247]

That suggests the use of semen and sperm. I'm sure the creator of all is quite capable of accomplishing what he did without such.

Impregnate - to make pregnant

It suggests no such thing.

And she's still the wife of another man and his daughter.

 

[Watchmen]

It suggests no such thing.

Actually, it does:

im·preg·nate
To make pregnant; inseminate.

in·sem·i·nate
To introduce or inject semen into the reproductive tract of (a female).

yourdictionary.com

 

[Comicaze247]

Actually, it does:

im·preg·nate
To make pregnant; inseminate.

in·sem·i·nate
To introduce or inject semen into the reproductive tract of (a female).

yourdictionary.com

impreganate just means he made her pregnant.

And the point is, she's somebody else's wife. He got somebody else's wife pregnant.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Theoretically speaking, why was a “virgin birth” necessary for the supposed Jesus?
He could have been a natural child of Joseph and Mary and still done the same things as outlined in the gospels, there is simply no reason a virgin birth was necessary.

Qura'an
[2:124] And remember that Ibrahim was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: he said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

Mat 3:9
And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

 

[S-word]

That's nice. I disagree. I believe He was the Son of God.[/font]

[/COLOR]

And I am in total agreement with you, The man Jesus who was born of the flesh as all mankind are, did become the son of God when he rose from the baptismal waters and was filled with the spirit of God, which descended upon him in the form of a dove, and then led him off into the wilderness to be tempted him for 40 days.

Apparently you do not believe God's word, which states that the man Jesus in his earthly existence had to learn through suffering to become obedient, and then and only then did God declare him to be high priest with these words that were heard from heaven as he rose from the baptismal waters and was filled with the spirit of my God, "You are my beloved in whom I am well pleased, Today I have become your Father."

See the more ancient authorities of Luke 3: 22, which was written before it was changed by the disciples of the Anti-Christ who refused to acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being and who went out through the entire earth preaching a different Jesus from the one who was preached by the apostles who make no mention whatsoever of the false story that later crept into the movement that Jesus was supposedly born of a virgin.

In fact Mark and John totally ignore the physical birth of Jesus as irrelevant to the story of the Son of Mankind and the Godhead of this world, and begin their account with his spiritual birth when the man jesus was filled with the spirit of God.

 

[S-word]

Well, the way I see it, if Jesus had been the natural child of Mary and Joseph, He would have been the son of Joseph, not the son of God. He may have been able to do miracles, but they wouldn't really have been His miracles because He wouldn't have been divine. As God's own Son, He was divine. He could do what He did through His own power. And as to why Mary was a virgin, I suppose I'd have to say that when she conceived, she was betrothed to Joseph. She would not have been worthy to marry Joseph had she not been a virgin.

Could you please explain from where you got the idea that Jesus performed the great miracles through his own power?

Mary was a virgin when she was visited by the angel Gabriel, and remained a virgin until she met the young Levite who had come from Cyprus to rejoice with his cousin Elizabeth. It's very much doubtful that at the time, Mary was aware that the young Levite Joseph, who was to become the biological father of Jesus, had been sired by her father Heli.

Nevertheless, the act by which the child Jesus was conceived in her womb, was concealed in the shadows beneath the wings of the Lord of spirits.

From Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible, Isaiah 7: 14, ALMAH: "Concealment-- unmarried female.

I repeat, could you please explain from where you got the idea that Jesus performed the great miracles through his own power?

 

[raybo]

This takes a certain measure of acceptance (understanding) and not all will be ready to do so.

Mary, daughter of Anna and Joachim was promised to the temple as her parents were initially barren. Joachim and Anna could not be the first to give alms in the temple for they did not have an inheritance for Israel. He went to petition G-d as to why, and he fasted and prayed for forty days. Anna was so distraught that she was both barren and also without her husband, she too prayed. They offered their offspring to the temple... if they could be blessed to have one. Mary was that one.

For Consideration: "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

This scripture clearly answers the question asked in the post. The embryo that was conceived within Mary carried the seed of the Divine. Now, in order to do this Mary needed to be pure. In fact the daughter of Anna and Joichum was dedicated to the temple from birth. Some believed at the time she had a special providence, whereby she walked and talked with the divine while in the temple.

This one finds the above consistent with the requirements for divine intervention. Cool stuff!

Good question!

 

[S-word]

This takes a certain measure of acceptance (understanding) and not all will be ready to do so.

Mary, daughter of Anna and Joachim was promised to the temple as her parents were initially barren. Joachim and Anna could not be the first to give alms in the temple for they did not have an inheritance for Israel. He went to petition G-d as to why, and he fasted and prayed for forty days. Anna was so distraught that she was both barren and also without her husband, she too prayed. They offered their offspring to the temple... if they could be blessed to have one. Mary was that one.

For Consideration: "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

This scripture clearly answers the question asked in the post. The embryo that was conceived within Mary carried the seed of the Divine. Now, in order to do this Mary needed to be pure. In fact the daughter of Anna and Joichum was dedicated to the temple from birth. Some believed at the time she had a special providence, whereby she walked and talked with the divine while in the temple.

This one finds the above consistent with the requirements for divine intervention. Cool stuff!

Good question!

Surely there must be a section within this forum for such fairytales, perhaps we could start a section for the mysterious traditions of the RCC. WOW have you read some of them? They're in total contradiction to the holy scriptures, but that doesn't worry that body, for they will themselves admit that whenever the Bible contradicts the traditions handed down to them, they will always believe the traditions which originate from such people as among many others, Helina the mother of Constantine the champion and founder of the unified universal church.

Of course they have nothing to do with the word of God, but are ficticious stories told by the those who would blind the eyes of our children and stuff their ears with mysterious rubbish in order to dull their minds to prevent them from seeking out the reality of Scripture and the promises made to those who will seek out and discover the truth.

 

[black_jesus]

impreganate just means he made her pregnant.

And the point is, she's somebody else's wife. He got somebody else's wife pregnant.

I know women can "bounce back" after having babies .... but it is never really the same after God is done with it ...lol

 

[Watchmen]

impreganate just means he made her pregnant.

It also suggests the means by which he made her pregnant (insemination (as the dictionary demonstrates)). I reject that.

 

[raybo]

Surely there must be a section within this forum for such fairytales, perhaps we could start a section for the mysterious traditions of the RCC. WOW have you read some of them? They're in total contradiction to the holy scriptures, but that doesn't worry that body, for they will themselves admit that whenever the Bible contradicts the traditions handed down to them, they will always believe the traditions which originate from such people as among many others, Helina the mother of Constantine the champion and founder of the unified universal church.

Of course they have nothing to do with the word of God, but are fictitious stories told by the those who would blind the eyes of our children and stuff their ears with mysterious rubbish in order to dull their minds to prevent them from seeking out the reality of Scripture and the promises made to those who will seek out and discover the truth.

s-word,

Pleased to "met" your acquaintance and your reply. Why have we been kept apart for so long... you are a joy to me. lol

Perhaps we could debate the gospels that were left behind at the Council of Laodicea in 302 A.D. You are sold on the canonized literature placed before you. Thou since it pleases you.. you might read more fantasy... if you like. Try this one, Paul and Thecla, or the Gospel of Bartholomew. Please be careful with that one. Regarding Anna and Joichum there are as many links as you could google.

s-word,

Please do not believe all that you read. Mostly it will mix you up. However, if you choose, try to discern what is righteous, and consistent in all scripture... against what is rubbish. To do this, you too will be required to purify yourself... above the nature that is sinful. I suspect this has not done, thus your reply to me. There is much work to be done. Find in your convictions one thing that you know that is blameless and true. Now devote all your energy meditating on this one thing. Soon, measures that were once believed, will shrink away and you will be free to share as the Lord directed, and with the compassion that comes from a contrite heart.

Much love is required... Yet hope springs eternal!

ray

 

[logician]

Virgin births = impossible, which is why they are the stuff of myths,.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

No, the word used (‘almah’) actually means ‘young woman’ and was misinterpreted as ‘virgin’, hence why redactors had to associate Jesus with a virgin birth to ‘fulfil’ the ‘prophecy’.

Yes, it was translated parthenos by those who produced the Septuagint. We might say it was an inspired error.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

S-word

Surely there must be a section within this forum for such fairytales, perhaps we could start a section for the mysterious traditions of the RCC.

Before you get too worked up, the story of Anna and Joachim (2nd century) is far older than the mother of Constantine, or the doctrine of sola scriptura for that matter.