Why was God's name removed from most bibles?

[seekandfind]

There is no good excuse for excluding Gods name from his own message. Thinking one is being righteous by doing so is absurd. It could have remained in Hebrew like "Hallalujah" did, which means Praise Jah or praise Yhwh.

 

[seekandfind]

There is no "translation" of God's divine name. Casual would have been to use it as part of a mere translation.

There is. Jehovah was used for his name it latin and it carried over. You must assume it needs to be said only in Hebrew and only perfect phonetically. Poor Hebrews that ever had a lisp or speech problem such as Moses. Its a good thing God knows more than Hebrew and looks at the hearts. Its an awful place to be for one to twist Gods commandment out of context and rely on human tradition as an excuse not to use his name.

 

[metis]

It's truly a shame that some Christians put excessive emphasis on God's holy name, which is not a mandate in the Gospels, and then ignore what Jesus said about his Two Commandments in that all the Law is in them. IOW, it's nothing more than a gimmick so as to differentiate themselves from "Christendom", the latter of which is a name they invented.

 

[seekandfind]

It's truly a shame that some Christians put excessive emphasis on God's holy name, which is not a mandate in the Gospels, and then ignore what Jesus said about his Two Commandments in that all the Law is in them. IOW, it's nothing more than a gimmick so as to differentiate themselves from "Christendom", the latter of which is a name they invented.

Isnt 1 of the 2 greatest commandments to love God with everything? How would someone know which God? Its obvious because Jesus was quoting the commandments which stated Gods name. 200 ceturies later some want to claim "listen to Jesus" while they clearly ignore him.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

So the name of of God, the Word of God is to powerful for any human to know. If man were to learn the true "name" of God then man would be able to unmake creation.

A: I personally have a headcanon that some genius decided that to avoid being killed for worshipping other gods, saying God’s name would be illegal and thus you could never be certain who they are talking about, lol.
B: Or God doesn’t care about His car’s extended warranty.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

There is. Jehovah was used for his name it latin and it carried over. You must assume it needs to be said only in Hebrew and only perfect phonetically. Poor Hebrews that ever had a lisp or speech problem such as Moses. Its a good thing God knows more than Hebrew and looks at the hearts. Its an awful place to be for one to twist Gods commandment out of context and rely on human tradition as an excuse not to use his name.

God's name is utterly unlike any other word or name, It is sacred. There is no commandment that says "Thou shalt not take a common word in vain." Altered renditions like Jehovah which are mispronunciations are completely unacceptable.

 

[seekandfind]

God's name is utterly unlike any other word or name, It is sacred. There is no commandment that says "Thou shalt not take a common word in vain." Altered renditions like Jehovah which are mispronunciations are completely unacceptable.

Jehovah is a different language so of course a different pronunciation! Jehovah is also a name that only belongs to Yhwh....no one else. While you seem to think LORD is a good replacement? Good thing no one elsr has ever been called LORD or your arguement would look petty and rediculous. "Unacceptable" in your view means very little to those who worship the Almighty Jehovah(Yhwh).

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Jehovah is a different language so of course a different pronunciation!

LIke I said, God's name is unique among all names and words. Because of its holiness, any change of pronunciation is unacceptable.

 

[John D. Brey]

No, its not removing it because a translation is different than a Hebrew copy. As long as the tetragrammaton is still there in Hebrew copies, it is not removed. A translation is just an inferior attempt to communicate the same message -- translations can never be put on the same level as the Hebrew texts.

One of the things your interlocutor doesn't seem to be grasping yet (I haven't read the whole thread) is the fact that to be read or pronounced, Hebrew consonants need to be punctuated. יהוה (yhvh) means nothing, cannot be read as anything, and particularly not a Name, until it's punctuated.

On the other hand, you too seem not to be grasping the fact that there's no Hebrew Bible on planet earth that isn't a translation since in the same way "yhvh" isn't punctuated in the Hebrew text, neither is any other word punctuated in the signature text of the Hebrew Bible. The Masoretic Text, by placing punctuation where the interpreters think it should go, creates an interpretation/translation of the text by breaking up letters (Hebrew consonants) and adding punctuation, to a text that had no punctuation for well over a thousand years.

In a similar manner to how your interlocutor seems to think you can translate "yhvh" into English without knowing what the punctuation is, so too, many a Jew, thinks when the Masoretes placed their punctuation on the Hebrew text, they weren't interpreting or translating the text, but merely punctuating it the only, or obvious, way it was supposed to be read. Unfortunately, as is always the case with interpretations, the Masoretic Text is not the only way the text can be read. It's an interpretation and translation of the Hebrew Bible (the punctuated translation) just as surely as the King James English is an interpretation of the Masoretic Text.

There is no untranslated Hebrew Bible. And any Jew who thinks there is, isn't much different than the nice but daft lady who said if the King James English was good enough for Jesus to speak it, it's good enough for her to read it. . . I repeat for emphasis: There is no untranslated Hebrew Bible since we no more have a written writ of where the punctuation would have gone on the Law Moses passed down, than we have concerning where the punctuation should go on the Hebrew consonants yod-heh-vav-heh.



John

 

[seekandfind]

LIke I said, God's name is unique among all names and words. Because of its holiness, any change of pronunciation is unacceptable.

Your opinion. Thanks.

 

[John D. Brey]

Your opinion. Thanks.

Fwiw, it's more than just his opinion since it's pretty much factual that faux-punctuation is added to "yhvh" to get the faux-pronunciation "Jehovah" or "Yahweh." A little bit of research would bear that out. Also, without some kind of punctuation, "yhvh" has little meaning and cannot be used as a Name (which is why faux-punctuation has to be added).

Nevertheless, by pointing that out to you, IndigoChild5559 opens a can of worms that shows Judaism's lack of insight into the original Bible to be far more pronounced than your lack of understanding concerning the nature of the Hebrew consonants "yhvh" (i.e., the fact that the're not a Name until punctuation is added), since in truth and fact, it's not just the consonants "yhvh" that had no punctuation in the true Hebrew Bible; its the entire Tanakh.

There was zero punctuation on the original letters of the Hebrew Bible for over a thousand years in the exact same sense that there's no punctuation on the Hebrew letters "yhvh." Which leads to this true gem of fact and truth: the entire Tanakh can be read today only because in the same sense that faux-punctuation was added to make "yhvh" readable as "Jehovah", so too, faux-punctuation (i.e., Masoretic points) were added to every other word in the Tanakh to make them readable and meaningful. The so-called "Old Testament" (which is a testament to Masoretic malfeasance) comes from Jews adding faux-punctuation not just to the letters "yhvh" in the Tanakh, but adding exactly the same kind of faux-punctuation to all the other letters throughout the entire Tanakh/Old Testament.

Since this is factual, and historically verifiable, you could say: If it please the court, we would like IndigoChild5559 to tell us just two crucially important things? Why did the same process that provided the faux-punctuation for all the other Hebrew words in the Tanakh (i.e., Masoretic malfeasance) leave "yhvh" without punctuation (Deut. 31:18)? ------Far more importantly, who, where, how, did the people who eventually faux-punctuated the Hebrew text of the Tanakh (the Masoretes) decide how it should be punctuated since it wasn't punctuated from Moses day until hundreds of years after Jesus' day? Who told the Masoretes how to punctuate each and every letter throughout the Tanakh? Was it all memorized for over a thousand years? Or is there an archive we can examine so we don't just have to trust the memory of the Masoretes remembering how Moses read each and every word nearly two thousand years earlier (Deut. 31-32)?

As early as the ninth century, Natronai ii. b. Hilai, who was Gaon or spiritual head of the College in Sora (859-869), in reply to the question whether it is lawful to put the points to the Synagogal Scroll of the Pentateuch, distinctly declared that "since the Law, as given to Moses on Sinai, had no points, and the points are not Sinaitic [i.e. sacred], having been invented by the sages, and put down as signs for the reader; and moreover since it is prohibited to us to make any additions from our own cogitations, lest we transgress the command `Ye shall not add,' &e. (Deut. iv. 2); hence we must not put the points to the Scroll of the Law."​

​

Elias Levita, Being an Exposition of the Massoretic Notes on the Hebrew Bible (p.11).​

John

 

[John D. Brey]

As early as the ninth century, Natronai ii. b. Hilai, who was Gaon or spiritual head of the College in Sora (859-869), in reply to the question whether it is lawful to put the points to the Synagogal Scroll of the Pentateuch, distinctly declared that "since the Law, as given to Moses on Sinai, had no points, and the points are not Sinaitic [i.e. sacred], having been invented by the sages, and put down as signs for the reader; and moreover since it is prohibited to us to make any additions from our own cogitations, lest we transgress the command `Ye shall not add,' &e. (Deut. iv. 2); hence we must not put the points to the Scroll of the Law."​

​

Elias Levita, Being an Exposition of the Massoretic Notes on the Hebrew Bible (p.11).​

The punctuation on the Hebrew letters that make them readable, meaningful, were invented three centuries after the the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans. In the ninth century CE, Natronai ii. b. Hilai, who was Gaon of the college in Sora, explained that Deuteronomy 4:2 prohibits punctuation or any other thing being added to the naked text received from Moses. And yet in the twelfth century CE, Maimonides used the the Aleppo codex when he set down the exact rules for writing scrolls of the Torah, Hilkhot Sefer Torah ("the Laws of the Torah Scroll") in his Mishneh Torah.

As can clearly be seen on the page above, the text Maimonides uses to inform soferim concerning the proper writing of Torah scrolls, has the Masoretes' fingerprints, marks, and notations from what the pen is, all over it, in order to nail down the text so that it not say something unseemly to their traditions. Their seed, testemony (Deut. 31:21), is all over the manuscript, against both the prohibition in Deuteronomy 4:2, and against the guidance of those Sages who point out that marking up the naked consonants is performing adultery (Deut. 31:16) by using the virgin text given by God, as the target for unleashing what comes from precisely what the Masorete's pen-is, in its adulterous roll as the fathering-organ/device fraudulently used to produce meaning from its faux-engagement (faux-punctuation) with the virgin text handed down by Moses. What Adam does to a virgin Eve to produce Cain (share his testemony with her using what his pen is), the Masoretes do to the Torah scroll to product the Cain of biblical texts: the Masoretic Old Testament.



John

 

[seekandfind]

Fwiw, it's more than just his opinion since it's pretty much factual that faux-punctuation is added to "yhvh" to get the faux-pronunciation "Jehovah" or "Yahweh." A little bit of research would bear that out. Also, without some kind of punctuation, "yhvh" has little meaning and cannot be used as a Name (which is why faux-punctuation has to be added).

Nevertheless, by pointing that out to you, IndigoChild5559 opens a can of worms that shows Judaism's lack of insight into the original Bible to be far more pronounced than your lack of understanding concerning the nature of the Hebrew consonants "yhvh" (i.e., the fact that the're not a Name until punctuation is added), since in truth and fact, it's not just the consonants "yhvh" that had no punctuation in the true Hebrew Bible; its the entire Tanakh.

There was zero punctuation on the original letters of the Hebrew Bible for over a thousand years in the exact same sense that there's no punctuation on the Hebrew letters "yhvh." Which leads to this true gem of fact and truth: the entire Tanakh can be read today only because in the same sense that faux-punctuation was added to make "yhvh" readable as "Jehovah", so too, faux-punctuation (i.e., Masoretic points) were added to every other word in the Tanakh to make them readable and meaningful. The so-called "Old Testament" (which is a testament to Masoretic malfeasance) comes from Jews adding faux-punctuation not just to the letters "yhvh" in the Tanakh, but adding exactly the same kind of faux-punctuation to all the other letters throughout the entire Tanakh/Old Testament.

Since this is factual, and historically verifiable, you could say: If it please the court, we would like IndigoChild5559 to tell us just two crucially important things? Why did the same process that provided the faux-punctuation for all the other Hebrew words in the Tanakh (i.e., Masoretic malfeasance) leave "yhvh" without punctuation (Deut. 31:18)? ------Far more importantly, who, where, how, did the people who eventually faux-punctuated the Hebrew text of the Tanakh (the Masoretes) decide how it should be punctuated since it wasn't punctuated from Moses day until hundreds of years after Jesus' day? Who told the Masoretes how to punctuate each and every letter throughout the Tanakh? Was it all memorized for over a thousand years? Or is there an archive we can examine so we don't just have to trust the memory of the Masoretes remembering how Moses read each and every word nearly two thousand years earlier (Deut. 31-32)?

As early as the ninth century, Natronai ii. b. Hilai, who was Gaon or spiritual head of the College in Sora (859-869), in reply to the question whether it is lawful to put the points to the Synagogal Scroll of the Pentateuch, distinctly declared that "since the Law, as given to Moses on Sinai, had no points, and the points are not Sinaitic [i.e. sacred], having been invented by the sages, and put down as signs for the reader; and moreover since it is prohibited to us to make any additions from our own cogitations, lest we transgress the command `Ye shall not add,' &e. (Deut. iv. 2); hence we must not put the points to the Scroll of the Law."​

​

Elias Levita, Being an Exposition of the Massoretic Notes on the Hebrew Bible (p.11).​

John

I realize originally there may have been punctuation added to get it right. Today its not needed. If someone uses "Yhwh" people know who you refer. Theres never been such a command or hint that Gods name cant be used outside of being exact Hebrew or that it is wrong. The only way its wrong is to use it in a worthless way, as the commandment brings out.

 

[Dawah]

Allah revealed his name to the prophets and it is and was Eloh/Allah. In jewish ELOH-im (meaning his majesty ELOH/ALLAH)

 

[John D. Brey]

I realize originally there may have been punctuation added to get it right. Today its not needed. If someone uses "Yhwh" people know who you refer.

Not exactly. If you speak of "yhvh" to me, I would assume you're talking about Jesus, or his pre-incarnate manifestation in the Tanakh. But a Jew is not likely to think of Jesus when he hears the pronunciation "Jehovah" or sees the word "Lord," or even the letters יהוה.

Imho, until we and Israel see eye-to-eye when the letters יהוה are read, or pronounced, you and I are not listening to Jesus' teaching carefully enough, and are not rightly dividing the Word of God properly. We might know that יהוה reads "Jesus" ---but until our dear brothers Israel are freed from shenanigans locking them inside the slave-market of sin, we, me and thee, are whistling Dixie when we should be studying to rightly divide the Word of truth.

Theres never been such a command or hint that Gods name cant be used outside of being exact Hebrew or that it is wrong. The only way its wrong is to use it in a worthless way, as the commandment brings out.

There's only two ways your statement above could be true. Either the truth of your statement is written in the Bible, or God has told it to you personally. The latter is problematic. And the former requires that you show us precisely, using exegetical fidelity (sound interpretive principle), where, and how, the written text of the Bible confirms what you said.

Everything I've said in this thread is an attempt to use sound historical truth, and legitimate facts related to the evolution and exegesis of our knowledge of the Bible, in order to clear out a space where יהוה can be seen to be Jesus not just by Christians, or theists, but by Jews, atheists, or anyone moved by fact and historical reality, instead of guarded-orthodoxy, traditions, fantasy, hope, and self-ingratiating religious pronouncements.




John

 

[seekandfind]

Allah revealed his name to the prophets and it is and was Eloh/Allah. In jewish ELOH-im (meaning his majesty ELOH/ALLAH)

Those yerms mean "god" which is a title. Yhwh is his name.

Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Yhwh the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is MY NAME FOREVER, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation."

 

[Dawah]

Those yerms mean "god" which is a title. Yhwh is his name.

Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Yhwh the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is MY NAME FOREVER, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation."

No. Moses called God as Eloh! YHWH is nonsense of jewish rabbies. a lie, a false claim.

 

[metis]

Isnt 1 of the 2 greatest commandments to love God with everything? How would someone know which God?

Thats not the point as I was not referring to other gods.

Again, you seem to be intent on adding another Commandment to Jesus' Two. And then you use the title "God" while claiming it's not proper to use that term but must use "YHWH".

IOW, you're inconsistent.

 

[seekandfind]

Thats not the point as I was not referring to other gods.

Again, you seem to be intent on adding another Commandment to Jesus' Two. And then you use the title "God" while claiming it's not proper to use that term but must use "YHWH".

IOW, you're inconsistent.

I never said that. Dont put words in peoples mouths.

 

[seekandfind]

I never said that. Dont put words in peoples mouths. Nor did anyone add to the commandments. I simply said loving god would include knowing his name.