Why Was Jesus Necessary?

[Miracle]

No problem

Paula Eilene said: "[God] looks on human sacrifice as an abomination."
In effect, I said, no he doesn't, by citing Genesis 22:2

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Yes, yes! But where did Abraham sacrifice Isaac? I would understand what your saying if Issac was sacrificed but because he wasn’t, what’s the point in bringing it up?

I’m not trying to be rude or give attitude. Looking at careers these days, people have a lot of sacrificing to do that’s equal to or even more than the test Abraham went through. People sacrifice, so much time at work and miss out on the upbringing of their children. Some freedom to come and work their buts off to send money to their families, some risk their lives and the lives of their children to cross borders, escape poverty, and violence. And in some cases, some people are happy that they were forced to make the sacrifice, otherwise it wouldn’t lead to their success.

Although, I do acknowledge the others who sacrificed everything for things that were not beneficial, but Abraham sacrificed to God who was (and is) faithful in carrying out his promise.

Honestly I commend Abraham for willing to acknowledge that God was good and that everyone pales in compares to his faithfulness, love and goodness. And taking into account all the things God did for him, his son wouldn’t even be enough to pay God back.

 

[Miracle]

Yes, yes! But where did Abraham sacrifice Isaac? I would understand what your saying if Issac was sacrificed but because he wasn’t, what’s the point in bringing it up?

I’m not trying to be rude or give attitude. Looking at careers these days, people have a lot of sacrificing to do that’s equal to or even more than the test Abraham went through. People sacrifice, so much time at work and miss out on the upbringing of their children. Some freedom to come and work their buts off to send money to their families, some risk their lives and the lives of their children to cross borders, escape poverty, and violence. And in some cases, some people are happy that they were forced to make the sacrifice, otherwise it wouldn’t lead to their success.

Although, I do acknowledge the others who sacrificed everything for things that were not beneficial, but Abraham sacrificed to God who was (and is) faithful in carrying out his promise.

Honestly I commend Abraham for willing to acknowledge that God was good and that everyone pales in compares to his faithfulness, love and goodness. And taking into account all the things God did for him, his son wouldn’t even be enough to pay God back.

Forgot to mention:

Human sacrifice is an abomination. God is good. When he shows his anger at sin and punishes it we see it as “bad” because we fail to understand why and see the seriousness of what’s being judged. God usually judges moments-years after the event has happened, giving people and kingdoms time to repent. So to us it seems like God is doing a bad thing because if the timing, but it’s simoly because he’s been patiently waiting for people to turn from their wrong. That’s why it’s always good to put oneself in someone else’s shoes or try to grasp the reason behind things before speaking about events and actions that we have no idea about. (As I say that to everyone, I also say it to myself.)

 

[sojourner]

You have a few good questions here but you ought to be satisfied with the straightforward answers I can provide in response. Please read this carefully as few questions like yours come with solutions this comprehensive and elegant. No other faith even comes close. For example Allah simply hand waves some of our sins away based on his fickle preferences. Christianity has a much more just, sufficient, and comprehensive solution to sin.

1. God (being perfectly just) cannot let us into heaven with a whole list of sins (and the unimaginable costs they produced) accredited to our account. God could not let imperfect creatures into heaven because he would just be turning his heaven into the same train wreck we have made out of this life.
2. God can only let perfect people into his heaven but we are not perfect so how can God accomplish all this?
3. God must let sinners in to ruin heaven or somehow make us into perfect people.
4. God is both just and loving so whatever he does must satisfy both attributes.
5. His sense of justice means that sins must be punished, his loving nature means he needs to remedy this situation so that imperfect people may enter heaven. This is why Christ's roll was necessary.

CRIST'S NECESSITY AND SUBSTATUTIONARY ATONEMENT.

A. We have absolutely nothing which can make up for the sins we committed and the damage they caused. God is the only one who can make that right but sins must be punished or God is no longer just. So God needs to produce a substitute for our selves who will pay for our sins.
B. So God provided a sacrificial lamp (to which his earlier animal sacrifices hinted would occur in the future). Christ was that willing sacrifice.
C. While on the cross all of God's justice was poured out on Christ (keep in mind Christ volunteered to do this). Christ paid the entire price to satisfy God's justice and wrath so we would not have to. What was this wrath that Christ endured? The suffering on the cross and his complete separation from God (the father). IOW he endured the hell our sins deserved.
D. The beauty of God's provision was that God paid the price our sins deserve and for those that believe his perfect (sinless) record was transferred to us so that we can enter heaven with a sinless record deserving of an eternity in heaven.
E. So for believers our sin was accredited to Christ and his righteousness was accredited to Christ.
F. Now you might say Christ got screwed in this deal but because he had no record of any sins actually committed by him to once he paid the price he volunteered to undergo he could just march right back into God's presence due to the lack of any sin he actually committed.

Despite my poor efforts to explain this (and the fact I must be brief) surely you can still see the perfectly elegant provision God supplied to the most substantial problem in human history.

A few things to keep in mind as you review the above.

* Substitutionary atonement is where ones debt is placed on another and what one earned is transferred to another.
* What Christ endured in our place is not physical death it is (second death) spiritual death (being severed from God and everything his existence comes with).
* Christ chose this roll he was not required to do so.
* No greater form of love exists that self sacrifice. We build museums and give metal to humans who sacrificed a lot less for a much smaller gain.

I can't do this unique concept full justice even if I sat here typing for years so I will have to stop somewhere. Even if you have no spiritual faith surely you can see how harmonious, mystifying, and elegant God's solution to man's problem actually was. No other faith has anything so mystically beautiful and substitutionary atonement.

Nah. Not buying it. In Judaic religion, every seven years, all debts were released, so the whole “mandatory payment for debt” fallacy is nullified. Also, each year the Jews celebrate Yom Kippur — the day of atonement — when sin is forgiven. That nullifies the whole magical “payment for sin” thingy.

If one is a Trinitarian, reconciliation was effected in the Incarnation. The whole “sinners in the hands of an angry God” thing is (IMO) less theologically necessary than the typical Fundigelical would have us believe.

 

[Paula Eilene]

And for all those who don't know about the Repent-Get-Out-Of-Hell-Free card, they're kind of up the creek.


Really.

Genesis 22:2
Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

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So you believe Abraham sacrificed Issac? He did not, it was a test, the Creator looks on Human Sacrifice the same as He does Idolatry of false teachers, they both are an Abomination to Him. Hell like the christ are Pagan concepts, not Biblical.

 

[sojourner]

In Eden, God's sovereignty was challenged by an ambitious spirit creature who had turned rebellious. As a free willed being, he had that propensity, but up until the creation of lower intelligent creatures he could not present himself as a god to anyone. He saw his opportunity when the woman was alone, and accused God of lying to them...he even called into question God's right to set limits for them in the hope of separating the humans from their God and getting them to do his bidding instead.

His ploy worked and he smugly waited for God's response.....it came in a way he did not expect. God could have just snuffed out the rebels because he is more powerful, but that was not the devil's accusation.....he questioned God's right to set the rules...he did not question his power. Would eliminating the rebels answer the question? No it wouldn't, and because one spirit entity had rebelled, there was nothing to stop others from becoming "satans" (resistors) as well. So God allowed the rebels to have their way and to experience for themselves what life would be like without God setting the rules and without his intervention in their quest for independence. He basically gave them the freedom they asked for. Time would tell them how successful they would be.

The fallacy here (and one, BTW, that a thorough education in biblical studies will reveal) is that Satan patently does not appear in the creation myth. Since the creation myth comes to us from earlier, Sumerian stories, it’s far more likely that the serpent represented, not “resistance,” but wisdom. Calling the serpent “Satan” is to superimpose a Hellenistic avatar onto a MUCH earlier story from a culture in which Satan didn’t even exist. And now, looky here! Your misinterpretation of the serpent has tainted your whole theological scheme.

 

[sojourner]

You've given an very good and articulate explanation of the Christian position. I do not wish to discourage you from being a Christian. However, may I point out that all through the Tanakh, God forgave people. A broken heart and contrite spirit is the only sacrifice God really wants.

Please don’t broadcast that this is THE “Christian position.” It’s the position, largely, of Protestant Fundigelicals, but does not speak for the whole of Xy.

 

[sojourner]

Don't see this as making any difference. According to the story Jesus (regardless of his nature) was sent to earth to abolish the sins of mankind. WHY? Why didn't god/Christ simply snap its fingers?

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Because God always works salvation through human agency. That’s why God became human (Jesus). Not to “die for us,” but to effect the reconciliation of the human and the Divine.

 

[Skwim]

So you believe Abraham sacrificed Issac?

Of course not, but god impressed upon Abraham that it was a good thing to do. And there are these:

Exodus 22:29 (god speaking)
Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.​

and

Leviticus 27:28-29 (god speaking)
28 “There is a special kind of gift that people give to the Lord. It belongs only to him, and it cannot be bought back or sold. This gift belongs to the Lord. This type of gift includes people, animals, and fields from the family property. 29 If this gift is a person, that person cannot be bought back. That person must be killed.​

and

2 Samuel 21:1, 8-14 (shortened)
Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.... The king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul ... And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD....And after that, God answered the prayers for the land.​

the Creator looks on Human Sacrifice the same as He does Idolatry of false teachers, they both are an Abomination to Him.

Fine. All I need are the chapters and verses that back this up.


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[Skwim]

Because God always works salvation through human agency.
That’s why God became human (Jesus).

That may be what he does, but it doesn't explain the why. Please recall my title:

"Why Was Jesus Necessary?"​

and my clarification of it in the OP. As I said:

"In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind to be absolved?"​

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[Deeje]

The fallacy here (and one, BTW, that a thorough education in biblical studies will reveal) is that Satan patently does not appear in the creation myth. Since the creation myth comes to us from earlier, Sumerian stories, it’s far more likely that the serpent represented, not “resistance,” but wisdom. Calling the serpent “Satan” is to superimpose a Hellenistic avatar onto a MUCH earlier story from a culture in which Satan didn’t even exist.

Now I am again wondering what on earth people are taught in theological colleges? This statement is in direct opposition to the apostle John's revelation which came from Jesus himself....hardly Hellenistic.

Revelation 20:1-3...
"Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time." (NASB)

Jesus identifies satan the devil as "the serpent of old" and he also calls satan the "father of the lie" (John 8:44)....the first lie told was to the woman, with the serpent telling her that she would not die. Your command of scripture is incredibly selective....very conveniently for you I guess, but very inaccurate.

And now, looky here! Your misinterpretation of the serpent has tainted your whole theological scheme.

Or looky here!.....maybe yours has....you have egg on your face. Nice try.

 

[Miracle]

In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind to be absolved?"

God is first a judge and second a father. Everything we see has an order to it whether we see it or not. Things always settle into the right order whether now or years later. While it may be easy to forgive someone, it doesn’t guarantee that they won’t do it again. And while God may forgive, sin must be still be punished. And that punishment is carried upon Christ.

The law (as I would like to call it) of Cause and Effect (Reaping and Sowing—biblical perspective) is very significant. It even reminds me of a verse:

“Can two walk together, except they be agreed? Will a lion roar in the forest, when he hath no prey? will a young lion cry out of his den, if he have taken nothing? Can a bird fall in a snare upon the earth, where no gin is for him? shall one take up a snare from the earth, and have taken nothing at all?”
‭‭Amos‬ ‭3:3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There is always punishment for bad and reward for good.

So sin is forgiven but the consequences needs to be dealt with and that’s why Jesus Christ is necessary. He took the punishment we were supposed to take so we could live a new in Him.

The punishment for sin is death and angry from God.

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I will pour my fury upon Sin, the strength of Egypt; and I will cut off the multitude of No. And I will set fire in Egypt: Sin shall have great pain, and No shall be rent asunder, and Memphis shall have distresses daily.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭30:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬
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In the Old Testament, the way of dealing with sin was simply to sacrifice an animal because the punishment for sin was death. And that animals was their scapegoat.

“And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭16:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Although God forgive them because their sins were transferred to the animals and justice was served. However, mankind was incapable of serving God because they still had the desire to sin; they were easily compelled to sin (via the devil). Honestly all of this is so similar to a court room.

Here’s an example:

Old Testament —

“But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.”
‭‭1 Samuel‬ ‭16:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

New Testament —

“Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.”
‭‭John‬ ‭13:26-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Just to add, because man kind is both physical and spiritual there are physical and spiritual consequences. So when one reads the Bible they need to keep in mind the spiritual aspects of the scriptures which the Holy Spirit (who is the author) can reveal to you (a holy Christian).
—————————————
Fast forward to the New Testament, Jesus Christ became the sacrificial lamb and by his resurrection made it possible for mankind to serve him without giving into those desires. Once someone accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, Jesus comes into their life and gives them that power to resist the devil just as he did in the wilderness.

“And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭4:3, 10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That ability to say no to the devil is the same power children of God are given to resist temptation and live a holy life.

To recap: God is first a judge. And the law he has established on earth is the law of sowing and reaping (cause and effect). When God interacts with man, he interacts with him abiding by the terms he has set to be an example (as a father).

Does this all make sense? I’m sure you might not be satisfied with my answer. But, I hope this answers your question.

 

[sojourner]

That may be what he does, but it doesn't explain the why. Please recall my title:

"Why Was Jesus Necessary?"​

and my clarification of it in the OP. As I said:

"In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind to be absolved?"​

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‘K. We have to recall the parable of the leaven: “God’s rule is like a woman who mixed leaven into dough until the whole lump was leavened.”

Leaven in the Bible wasn’t like modern yeast; leaven was poison. Theologically then, the Bible tells us that humanity is sinful, while God is pure/perfect. Humanity is powerless to clean ourselves up, so God became “dirty” in order to reconcile us to God. God came down to,our level, that is, became Incarnate — human, because we cannot become Divine.

 

[Miracle]

I realized I repeated myself several times there. Sorry!

- God bless

 

[Skwim]

Does this all make sense? I’m sure you might not be satisfied with my answer. But, I hope this answers your question.

It doesn't. Answering a "what" or "how" is not answering the "why."

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[sojourner]

Now I am again wondering what on earth people are taught in theological colleges? This statement is in direct opposition to the apostle John's revelation which came from Jesus himself....hardly Hellenistic.

Revelation 20:1-3...
"Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time." (NASB)

Jesus identifies satan the devil as "the serpent of old" and he also calls satan the "father of the lie" (John 8:44)....the first lie told was to the woman, with the serpent telling her that she would not die. Your command of scripture is incredibly selective....very conveniently for you I guess, but very inaccurate.



Or looky here!.....maybe yours has....you have egg on your face. Nice try.

Nope. Revelation is a completely different book from Genesis, from a completely
different faith tradition, written in a different language, for a different intended audience, who hold different spiritual metaphors. Read Genesis. Tell me if Satan is ever mentioned in the creation myths. You’ll find that he is not.

What the authors have Jesus say may present a certain interpretation, but it is not the myth, itself, and can not inform the myth.

You’re falling into the juvenile trap of eisegesis here.

Bring your face over here; I take my eggs poached.

 

[Skwim]

‘K. We have to recall the parable of the leaven: “God’s rule is like a woman who mixed leaven into dough until the whole lump was leavened.”

Leaven in the Bible wasn’t like modern yeast; leaven was poison. Theologically then, the Bible tells us that humanity is sinful, while God is pure/perfect. Humanity is powerless to clean ourselves up, so God became “dirty” in order to reconcile us to God. God came down to,our level, that is, became Incarnate — human, because we cannot become Divine.

So why couldn't god "reconcile" us without becoming dirty? And how would our inability to become divine prevent god from "snapping his fingers"?
Why was Jesus necessary?

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[sojourner]

That ability to say no to the devil is the same power children of God are given to resist temptation and live a holy life.

Problem is, this never works! All Christians still sin. All.

 

[sojourner]

That may be what he does, but it doesn't explain the why. Please recall my title:

"Why Was Jesus Necessary?"​

and my clarification of it in the OP. As I said:

"In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind to be absolved?"​

.

Yeah, I looked at it again. It really does answer the “why.” Here’s how:

The biblical writers have God act through human agency (the “how”). Therefore, in order to perpetuate that paradigm, it’s necessary for salvation to also come through human agency (the “why”).

 

[sojourner]

So why couldn't god "reconcile" us without becoming dirty? And how would our inability to become divine prevent god from "snapping his fingers"?
Why was Jesus necessary?

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Back to my first answer. Because the biblical writers always have God act throughout human agency, in order for that paradigm to be consistent, God also has to effect salvation through human agency.

[edit] because the biblical story is ultimately a human story, and the religion is ultimately about human beings.

 

[Miracle]

Problem is, this never works! All Christians still sin. All.

I beg to differ my friend. Just because you haven't seen any doesn't make it true. And we aren't looking at your definition of sin we are looking at the Bible's definition.