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Why Was Jesus Necessary?

Cooky

Veteran Member
In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind to be absolved?

Some say god wanted each individual to prove themselves worthy of such forgiveness. Okay, then why didn't he make the playing field level, where each and every person on earth had an equal chance? Why were only some apprised of god's requirement?---many, many never having got or getting the message. And not everyone is mentally capable of grasping the truth of god's test, yet they, along with the ignorant, have been left out of god's forgiveness. Others, such as myself, god has simply failed to convince; and whose fault is that; a puny mortal mind besting the best efforts of god? AND, as an omniscient being, god would be well aware of all these imminent failures. He knew that persons X, Y, and Z would never be on the receiving end of his forgiveness, but instead end up in hell or wherever. So, why even allow such poor unfortunate souls be born? Truthfully, as the story is laid out, god comes off as quite the heartless monster

So, nope, the notion of proving oneself worthy just doesn't wash, at least not under the auspices of an all-loving and benevolent god, which puts us right back at square one. Why did god even bother with Jesus?


Ideas?


.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church
CCC 460:

The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God**
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church
CCC 460:

The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God**
Interesting because the Jubilaeum A. D. 2000 magazine website submits another reason.


"JESUS SENT BY THE FATHER
FOR THE SALVATION OF THE WORLD

1. Christ reveals himself throughout his earthly life as the Saviour sent by the Father for the salvation of the world. His very name, "Jesus", expresses this mission. It actually means: "God saves".

It is a name he was given as a result of heavenly instruction: both Mary and Joseph (Lk 1:31; Mt 1:21) receive the order to call him by this name. In the message to Joseph the meaning of the name is explained: "for he will save his people from their sins".

Jesus thus appears as the universal Saviour: all human beings, according to the divine plan, are ransomed, freed and saved by him. Paul says: "Since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" (Rom 3:24). Salvation is a gift that can be received by each one to the extent of his free consent and voluntary co-operation."
source

.
 

syo

Well-Known Member
And that goes to the heart of my question; why a game that involved the torture and death of his own "son," and the tribulations of his newly created creatures, when a snap of the fingers could have solved everything?

.
he wanted death to happen first and then negate death. a simple snap of the fingers doesn't involve death's power.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
First you said God is ( Omniscient ) now your switching it to ( Omnipotent)
So which is it.
Omnipotent only means God is all powerful.
That I can agree with.

But to say God is ( Omniscient ) which means ( all knowing ) this I disagree with.
For the very reason that there is no where in the Bible written that God is Omniscient.

I would like to see the book and chapter and verse's where this is written at in the Bible

If, as you assert, god has all (repeat: all) the power? As defined by "Omnipotent"?

This means there isn't any left over-- none, not an iota. Zero. Zip.

Since Free Will requires the exercise of power? (choice, etc)

That eliminates the existence of an Omnipotent being.

Oh! But wait! Omnipotent God grants us Free Will? (or so the "argument" goes...)

Well, if that is true? Then? In so doing? It gives up some of it's power -- meaning it is no longer Omnipotent.

oooops!
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
First you said God is ( Omniscient ) now your switching it to ( Omnipotent)
So which is it.
Omnipotent only means God is all powerful.
That I can agree with.

But to say God is ( Omniscient ) which means ( all knowing ) this I disagree with.
For the very reason that there is no where in the Bible written that God is Omniscient.

I would like to see the book and chapter and verse's where this is written at in the Bible

Let's explore another aspect of All Powerful:

It has to include All Knowing too-- this is Required. How?

If there is/was something an All Powerful god does not know? As would be the case if it was not all-knowing...

Well, we have an example where his Power is Limited! Which contradicts the 'All The Power' that Omnipotent requires.

Because a piece of knowledge that is unknown represents Power of a sort.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
It is one thing to slaughter food animals-- that's kind of how it works, with omnivores (as all humans biology dictates).

It's quite another to demand it if you are a Supreme Being: What sort of Monster requires brutal MURDER before it can soothe it's OWN EGO?

Seriously.
One does't "murder" an animal. One "murders" people
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
he wanted death to happen first and then negate death.
So the whole A&E / snake event was just a ruse? All along god's intent was to create A&E just so he could fill the world with creatures he could kill? Doesn't sound like god is hitting on all cylinders. In fact, it sounds quite savage.

a simple snap of the fingers doesn't involve death's power.
What is this death's power and why does it have to be involved?

.
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
Okay. What's the answer within the Bible?

.
God created Adam and Eve, with generative powers, and authority to use it.
They had the prospect of living forever, provided they obeyed the command not to eat of the tree God put restrictions on - "Do not touch or eat fruit from this tree, otherwise you will die."

Adam and Eve disobeyed.
God did not alter things, like a weak judge who can be bribed. He kept his word, demonstrating that he lives by his own standards of justice, and righteousness. Deuteronomy 32:4, 5
He also did not take away their generative powers, like a weak ruler, who cannot take action to repair a problem that is foreseen.

So Adam and Eve had offspring that inherited a defect - that is a body that doesn't function perfectly. It does not function at its full potential. instead it breaks down deteriorates until finally it shuts down - dies.
This is in harmony with what God had truthfully stated, showing that it wasn't the fruit that have some magical power, that killed Adam and Eve, but disobedience, which cut them off from their life source. Disobedience brings forth death.
This was later recorded as a fact. Deuteronomy 30:19, 20; Romans 5:12; 6:23; James 1:13-15

So let's follow the process:- Jehovah is the source of life. Sin cuts one off from that source. The only way to reconnect to that source is to remove sin.
With the snap of his finger? No. This is no magic show.
This is why Jesus was necessary.

Consider an illustration:
A clothes iron when connected to a power source heats up. Of course that heat is regulated as the iron is used. When the iron is plugged out, the iron doesn't instantly lose its heat, bu it gradually loses it, until it is cold - dead no use to our clothes.

The wages of sin is death - the final result. That process started with Adam's sin, and now all his offspring are bound to that process - deteriorating to death.

Jesus took the place of Adam's offspring He took our sin upon himself, and died in our place. Isaiah 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgression; He was crushed for our errors. He bore the punishment for our peace, And because of his wounds we were healed.
Matthew 1:21; 20:28; Romans 4:25; 5:19; Colossians 1:19, 20; 1 Peter 2:23, 24

Only a perfect man can do this, because he is not himself in the process Adam started. Psalm 49:7, 8
So by means of Christ's death God stopped the process of sin, in two ways.
1. Spiritually
a. Because Christ sacrificed (the ransom) his life for Adam's offspring, God could now forgive - blot out - wipe away - cast off, their sins.
b. Because Christ sacrificed (the ransom) his life for Adam's offspring, God could now allow Adam's offspring to reconnect to him - have a relationship as his children.

2. Physically
Because Christ sacrificed (the ransom) his life for Adam's offspring, God will bring back the dead whose sins he has blotted out; reverse the process of death; end death permanently. Hosea 13:14; Isaiah 25:8; 1 Corinthians 15:53-57; Revelation 20:12-14

This highlights God's abundant mercy, and love.
The video I presented earlier gave a fitting illustration.

EDIT
When one rejects Christ sacrifice, they are really choosing death, which they will have - with no hope of ever seeing life again.
 
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Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
he wanted death to happen first and then negate death. a simple snap of the fingers doesn't involve death's power.

Why not? Why not simply snap the fingers to negate the "power" of death?

It sounds like this "death" is more powerful than advertised-- perhaps on par with god himself, since he had to jump through so many hoops to "appease" death...

hmmmm.... It makes death into a superior position, and god into a mere supplicant...
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
He also did not take away their generative powers, like a weak ruler, who cannot take action to repair a problem that is foreseen.

STOP! This is a real PROBLEM: ".... problem that is foreseen."

That means?

The entire thing was ... FORESEEN? BUT GOD WENT AHEAD WITH IT ANYWAY?

Wow.... that means it all happened BY DESIGN-- !

And all the torture and other stuff? INTENTIONAL!

That really makes your story about a million times WORSE. Seriously.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
One does't "murder" an animal. One "murders" people

Agreed. But, the brutal and senseless slaughter of animals JUST to appease the unwholesome appetites of .... a god?

Paints the god in question to be barbaric in the extreme...

However, it's certainly in keeping with the Bronze Age: Where life itself was short, nasty and brutish.

So I suppose that fits the narrative: Bronze Age Brutality.

I'd expect Superior Workmanship in a being worthy of the title 'god', but apparently bible-worshipers have much-much lower standards...
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
If, as you assert, god has all (repeat: all) the power? As defined by "Omnipotent"?

This means there isn't any left over-- none, not an iota. Zero. Zip.

Since Free Will requires the exercise of power? (choice, etc)

That eliminates the existence of an Omnipotent being.

Oh! But wait! Omnipotent God grants us Free Will? (or so the "argument" goes...)

Well, if that is true? Then? In so doing? It gives up some of it's power -- meaning it is no longer Omnipotent.

oooops!
Faulty logic.

If God is defined buy "Omnipotent", then He has the capacity to allow free choice since it is within His Omnipotent power to do so.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Agreed. But, the brutal and senseless slaughter of animals JUST to appease the unwholesome appetites of .... a god?

Paints the god in question to be barbaric in the extreme...

However, it's certainly in keeping with the Bronze Age: Where life itself was short, nasty and brutish.

So I suppose that fits the narrative: Bronze Age Brutality.

I'd expect Superior Workmanship in a being worthy of the title 'god', but apparently bible-worshipers have much-much lower standards...
Then you don't understand "kosher".
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Faulty logic.

If God is defined buy "Omnipotent", then He has the capacity to allow free choice since it is within His Omnipotent power to do so.

Nope. The logic is 100% spot-on.

IF god gives away some of his power to enable Free Will? THEN he is no longer all-powerful.

IF he reserves that power to USURP Free Will? Then Free Will is illusion, and not real.

Free Will absolutely requires the exercise of power (however small). If god has ALL the power? Free Will cannot exist.

You saying "unn-unh" without a counter-argument (apart from repeating the definition) doesn't cut the mustard.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Then you don't understand "kosher".
Never said I did.

But. You can be certain, the only sort of expert I would trust in this matter, would be someone who was at least, Jewish. And preferably a mashgiach.

You can bank on it, I won't take the word of someone who has twisted the Jewish Bible into something it was not originally (christian).
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
God created Adam and Eve, with generative powers, and authority to use it.
They had the prospect of living forever, provided they obeyed the command not to eat of the tree God put restrictions on - "Do not touch or eat fruit from this tree, otherwise you will die."

Adam and Eve disobeyed.
God did not alter things, like a weak judge who can be bribed. He kept his word, demonstrating that he lives by his own standards of justice, and righteousness. Deuteronomy 32:4, 5
He also did not take away their generative powers, like a weak ruler, who cannot take action to repair a problem that is foreseen.

So Adam and Eve had offspring that inherited a defect - that is a body that doesn't function perfectly. It does not function at its full potential. instead it breaks down deteriorates until finally it shuts down - dies.
This is in harmony with what God had truthfully stated, showing that it wasn't the fruit that have some magical power, that killed Adam and Eve, but disobedience, which cut them off from their life source. Disobedience brings forth death.
This was later recorded as a fact. Deuteronomy 30:19, 20; Romans 5:12; 6:23; James 1:13-15

So let's follow the process:- Jehovah is the source of life. Sin cuts one off from that source. The only way to reconnect to that source is to remove sin.
With the snap of his finger? No. This is no magic show.
This is why Jesus was necessary.
So god brought Jesus into the world so he could suffer and die just because he didn't want to snap his fingers, because that would be a magic show? Evidently you believe god's rationalization went something like:

"Ya know, I could forgive all of mankind's sins with the snap of my fingers, but that would just be a magic show---whatever that is. So, nope, instead I'm going to take my time with a really convoluted process, after which only certain people will be forgiven. After all, can't have everybody be on the end of my good graces.


Consider an illustration:
A clothes iron when connected to a power source heats up. Of course that heat is regulated as the iron is used. When the iron is plugged out, the iron doesn't instantly lose its heat, bu it gradually loses it, until it is cold - dead no use to our clothes.

The wages of sin is death - the final result. That process started with Adam's sin, and now all his offspring are bound to that process - deteriorating to death.

Jesus took the place of Adam's offspring He took our sin upon himself, and died in our place. Isaiah 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgression; He was crushed for our errors. He bore the punishment for our peace, And because of his wounds we were healed.
Matthew 1:21; 20:28; Romans 4:25; 5:19; Colossians 1:19, 20; 1 Peter 2:23, 24

Only a perfect man can do this, because he is not himself in the process Adam started. Psalm 49:7, 8
So by means of Christ's death God stopped the process of sin, in two ways.
1. Spiritually
a. Because Christ sacrificed (the ransom) his life for Adam's offspring, God could now forgive - blot out - wipe away - cast off, their sins.
b. Because Christ sacrificed (the ransom) his life for Adam's offspring, God could now allow Adam's offspring to reconnect to him - have a relationship as his children.

2. Physically
Because Christ sacrificed (the ransom) his life for Adam's offspring, God will bring back the dead whose sins he has blotted out; reverse the process of death; end death permanently. Hosea 13:14; Isaiah 25:8; 1 Corinthians 15:53-57; Revelation 20:12-14

This highlights God's abundant mercy, and love.
The video I presented earlier gave a fitting illustration.

EDIT
When one rejects Christ sacrifice, they are really choosing death, which they will have - with no hope of ever seeing life again.
Considered it and can only say that I'm sorry you went to all the trouble with something that lacks any relevancy.

.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
IMO, the concept of Jesus's death being the final atonement for mankind's sins is more of a "theological construct" than an objective truth.

First of all, if Jesus was both man and God, which one was sacrificed for the remittance of sin? Can't be the "man" part because Judaism has long forbidden human sacrifices, and then it makes no sense that God could be sacrificed for God.

However, on the symbolic side it can make sense.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Nope. The logic is 100% spot-on.

IF god gives away some of his power to enable Free Will? THEN he is no longer all-powerful.

IF he reserves that power to USURP Free Will? Then Free Will is illusion, and not real.

Free Will absolutely requires the exercise of power (however small). If god has ALL the power? Free Will cannot exist.

You saying "unn-unh" without a counter-argument (apart from repeating the definition) doesn't cut the mustard.

No...

We have a Supreme Court that can reverse anything done by the lower courts.

God remains Supreme.

If He is ALL powerful, to say that He can't give people free will dictates that He wasn't ALL powerful.

So... illogical Captain
 
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