Why Was Jesus Necessary?

[Kenny]

You can bank on it, I won't take the word of someone who has twisted the Jewish Bible into something it was not originally (christian).

And you say it is "brutal" twisting the Jewish methods when they do it in the most humane way.

 

[nPeace]

So god brought Jesus into the world so he could suffer and die just because he didn't want to snap his fingers, because that would be a magic show? Evidently you believe god's rationalization went something like:

"Ya know, I could forgive all of mankind's sins with the snap of my fingers, but that would just be a magic show---whatever that is. So, nope, instead I'm going to take my time with a really convoluted process, after which only certain people will be forgiven. After all, can't have everybody be on the end of my good graces. ​

Considered it and can only say that I'm sorry you went to all the trouble with something that lacks any relevancy.

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May I suggest you change the OP to...

Spoiler: New OP

In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind to be absolved?
..........
Why did god even bother with Jesus?
Ideas?

Wait! Any answers that can address this will be discarded, but you'll only find out after... unless you know Skwim.
However, if you are already familiar with Skwim's tactics, and you still want to whip his questions into oblivion, feel free to participate... knowing full well, it would be irrelevant to the OP.
Proceed.

Thanks for the exercise though. It was a good one, and...
You're welcomed.

 

[Deeje]

Notebook: The above? Is known as Attacking The Messenger.

Notice that the post is critical of me, personally-- but in NO WAY offers up any argument(s) that could contradict what I wrote.

In fact? 100% of what I wrote is 100% ignored by the above post...!

All we have, instead, is trash-talking about ME, on a personal level...!

Wow.. ... It's as if the poster had NO counter-arguments at all!

The post was to demonstrate why it is a complete waste of time to offer an address to you or anyone else with your mindset. You will ridicule and ignore and twist everything that is offered to you. So if you are confident in your position and God is the weak or wicked moron you assume him to be, then I guess it's best to leave you to your POV and allow the wicked moronic God to reveal himself to you in his own time and way.

You cannot have a conversation with a brick wall. But if you really want an answer, I can provide another POV.....if not for you, then perhaps for the benefit of those who care.

You asked....."IF you truly believe your god created everything from scratch, and exactly as planned?"

He did create everything from scratch, but he did not determine individual behavior when giving humans free will....which is why there are people like you. You are exercising your free will and God has not struck you down or sent you to hell....has he? Do you value your free will? So do I. God pre-determined an outcome, but not the individuals who will feature in it. We do that by how we respond to God's direction.

"Then?"

He is giving all humans to an opportunity to show him who they are by their own choices, and whether they have the qualities that he is looking for when granting citizenship in his incoming Kingdom.....the Bible says that this is the government that will soon rule the whole earth. (Daniel 2:44) Nothing, and no one can stop the coming of God's Kingdom. So our choices will either result in a future there or none.

"He's a deliberate monster: In that he created humans deliberately so they could fail! And worse! He knew it before he created them!"

He gave humans his own qualities and moral standards, but free will governed how they used them.

But the woeful state of affairs on earth is only half the story.....rebellion began in heaven. A free willed spirit creature stationed in Eden, began to envy the relationship that God had with his human creation. He wanted to be "like God" and grab that worship for himself. Our situation is one where we are just the hostages in this battle between God and this rebel 'son'. He influenced other 'sons' to join him in the rebellion, so it had to be addressed in a way that prevented this from happening again.

Gaining that perspective, we will see that all of God's intelligent creation are involved in the most important object lesson there will ever be. God has to focus on the rebel spirits primarily because these are more powerful than humans and are influencing human behavior by deception, just as it was at the beginning. The devil takes advantage of man's ignorance and human weaknesses. The question is....are we his victims? Have we had the wool pulled over our eyes, prodding our anger over apparent injustice? Are we blindly responding to what appears to be rather than what is?

"But wait-- your god punishes people for being exactly as he created them to be!"

Nonsense! God will punish only those who oppose his standards, his Kingdom and its appointed King. If people don't want to live there, God will not force anyone to do anything against their will.....but nor will he tolerate rebellion among his intelligent creation ever again. Precedents set in this sad recorded history, will ensure that this situation can never be repeated. The issues raised in Eden will be settled once and for all because both humans and angels have had ample opportunity (thousands of years) to demonstrate that independence from God could ever result in good government, peace, security and happiness for those who reject His laws and standards. The world we have at present is proof enough that humans are following the wrong god. They can't rule themselves successfully without him. Power always corrupts them.

The rest of forever can then proceed as God intended from the beginning.

We are mortal creatures who were designed to live on this earth forever. It was never meant to be a training ground for heaven. There is no immortal part of man to go to either heaven or hell....that scenario was made up by the church after it apostatized from true Christianity. At the end, God will determine who gains citizenship in his Kingdom and who will not.

Once these issues are finally settled, no rebel will ever challenge God's Sovereignty ever again.

"That's horrible!

Not to be outdone, he then deliberately creates torture-porn, sacrificing himself to appease himself for the rules he himself created in the first place...!"

As I said...if you really believe that then no wonder you are angry...I would be too. But your assumptions are not based on the truth. Yet you are so sure that you are right that you won't even entertain another explanation.

Under God's law, when a person found themselves sold into service because of a debt, (a parent could sell a child as a servant in order to pay a debt and the child had no say in it) a relative could pay the debt and free the child. That was called redemption. Christ is a redeemer because he paid the price.....the full price that no one else could. It required "a life for a life" so because a perfect life was lost for all of Adam's children, only another perfect life could settle the account, freeing those in slavery to sin and death. There is nothing horrible about that because it was done willingly...out of love. Much like someone stepping in and taking a bullet to protect a loved one.

You negate all of that by your judgement and anger....try understanding that there are other points of view that do not agree with yours....OK? You may be wrong about everything.....imagine!

 

[Skwim]

May I suggest you change the OP to...

Spoiler: New OP

In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind to be absolved?
..........
Why did god even bother with Jesus?
Ideas?

Wait! Any answers that can address this will be discarded, but you'll only find out after... unless you know Skwim.
However, if you are already familiar with Skwim's tactics, and you still want to whip his questions into oblivion, feel free to participate... knowing full well, it would be irrelevant to the OP.
Proceed.

Thanks for the exercise though. It was a good one, and...
You're welcomed.

Simply read how many posts, including your own, are unable to stay on topic, which is the WHY? of the subject. Believe it or not, but in this thread I'm not at all interested in what the wages of sin are, or what process Adam started, or because Christ sacrificed his life for us god will bring back the dead.
THEY ARE IRRELEVANT TO MY QUESTION, which is. . . . . .

Why Was Jesus Necessary?
​

Got an answer? Good. Can't answer it? Then don't bother tap dancing around it. It doesn't impress.

.

.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Paul, our favorite religious fanatic, explains it well.

It is kind of interesting how Paul was tacked on at the last moment.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

It really doesn't make any sense when you consider the stories of the Old Testament.

One would think Jesus would have been sent down at the time of Adam and Eve rather than go through scriptural volumes depicting the floods, plagues , wars, exterminations, and then, after all that, send Jesus down afterwards?

Yeah, it's a bit like drawing up a new mission statement after the business has already failed so bad the permit's been pulled.

Why didn't god/Christ simply snap its fingers?

He didn't have all the stones?

Yeshua came to be murdered by mankind to prove who the Ravenous beings are, so then they can be removed in one go.

But they're still here?

This was a legal strategy used to neutralize the power of law and sin. Jesus beat law and sin at its own game.

But sin's still here?

His resurrection makes him the same person, but now a person who is free from the law.

Why?

He is no longer under the power and authority of the lord of the earth; Satan.

Why worship a God so incompetent as to lose an ENTIRE PLANET to some grouchy underling?

Not much later, in the symbolism of Revelations, Satan is thrown from heaven, since he was out foxed by Jesus.

Not really. Jesus supposedly died for our sins but he bounced the check three days later. That's if he even MADE it to Heaven, since he said if you call people fools, you burn in hell. He called people fools, so ....

He would raise up a Prophet like Moses, both from the decedent's of Israel, from their countrymen

I have my doubts Moses was even Hebrew. I suspect he was just an exiled Egyptian who went on a rebellious spree. Hebrews went along with it because, given how they are portrayed in their own texts, one can't go on enough killing and looting sprees.

Now we have two event's that need repair, Satan gain's the Earth which was under Adam's charge!

If God is so incompetent as to give an entire planet to a kid who hasn't even left the comfort of a small patch of fertile land where everything is spoonfed to him and his trans sister until they eat a piece of fruit God left within arm's reach, then God doesn't deserve respect.

Yes, all very true, until a new covenant came to light.

I am altering the deal. PRAY I don't alter it any further. -- the Chosen One

So we have the Son of God and a descendent of Abraham, in One Person, Created in the womb of a Jewish woman of the lineage of David,

You have an adult willing to kill his son and a king who slept with half of Israel enough to put both Kirk AND Riker to shame AND allied with the enemies AND set forth in motion the destruction of the kingdom -- I'm sorry, what was God's point in caring about that lineage?

The Gentiles had full opportunity to serve God and to obey Him - However, The Hebrew people were chosen by God

But Hebrews were just self-hating gentiles. They were Canaanites. They decided they weren't, but that doesn't matter to their genetics.

The messages here are so encouraging in today's world of so many snares, downfalls, and also so much misinformation is spread concerning the message of Gods word.

As for Why! Well this question can be asked over and over, So It would Be that God structured a Plan from the beginning, this all knowing God knew the outcome of mankind, before He made the Plan! SO Jesus was a player in God's Plan. Like a stage Play, everyone had their part! If I could only understand one of God's thought's, who could contain the thought's or reason's of God?

You know what annoys reviewers, like CinemaSins? It's when moronic elements happen because the script said so. Most of the bible's plot could've been avoided had God had an IQ over 50.

God faithfully kept to his word, and made a provision to deliver those affected by Adam's actions. He therefore demonstrated his superlative justice and mercy, and that he is not a liar, as we humans are.

Humans told that story, though.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.( Eph. 2:8-9)

So, really, our salvation is based purely on whim and it doesn't matter what kind of people we are because God will do whatever He wants.

He cannot simply snap His fingers and forgive those who are not sorry, nor want forgiveness.

He didn't have this problem before Jesus. Did God delete parts of His job description because Jesus complained he had nothing to do?

God cannot do what goes against His own holy character, which includes justice.

Justice doesn't involve entrapment.

How many judges in a courtroom snap their fingers and ignore the law even when someone is sorry?

LOL. I live in the US. We have not remotely mastered the concept of "justice."

So if you are a unbeliever, with enmity toward the very thought of a God, why would you make statement's with malice toward a God you do not believe in?

Atheists are God's checks and balances system, designed specifically to reduce the hubris of believers.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

As I pointed out to 1robin, how just and loving---character traits ascribed to god---is it that those whose parents failed to obey his commands should be gobbled up by mom and dad on orders from god.

What if, since "El" and "Baal" were just words for "god" or "lord", God's apparent multiple personalities are due to some confusion about how many deities we're talking about? The bible and reality agree that "Yeshua Q. Public" worshiped other gods. However, the authors were almost if completely strict monotheists, and tried to downplay references to other gods. In the Baal Cycle, Baal Hadad is the kinda/sorta "good" One and Yah(weh) is the "villain" (They are both really jerks and I can't really find a single deity in that story who acts "saintly".).

He established in Gen 1 that it was through man that authority is wielded in the earth... thus he had to come as a man

God made that rule. He can unmake it. It's not like the physics of the universe will be uprooted if Adam is fired.

You can eliminate the fruit (sin) but next year a new crop would appear. He had to deal with the root.

He never does, though. Adam and Eve are allowed to live and reproduce. Humans post-Flood are descendants of the evil humans pre-Flood. Nothing changes if you keep using the same stock.

Man has free will, He still gives man choice.

Choice to do what?

Yes, Dave was forgiven because of a contrite heart.

David was forgiven because there was no harp player to get rid of him. It's amazing what can happen when you're the one funding the story.

And, why did he sacrifice so many animals as he brought the Arc to Jerusalem?

Because that was a thing. You know how politicians, no matter how evil they are, go to some church to prove their holiness to their supporters? Same diff.

Yes, through covenants where man opened the door. Covenants started in chapter 3 of Genesis where God shed the blood of animals after declaring the Messiah (Gen 3:15) and clothing them in animal skins (that what He does) instead of fig leaves (man's attempt to fix their problems through religion and philosophies) ... a type and shadow of God clothing us with His righteousness, not through works, it is a gift from God through the blood of Jesus

He killed animals ... where? I see He dressed them in leather, but as God, He doesn't have to kill animals to make it.

God is Not a lawbreaker.

No, He encourages us to break laws. See: Jesus.

God would Not break His Law of Genesis 2:17 that to eat that forbidden fruit would bring about death

That was a threat, not a law. The serpent calls God out on this. God verifies it was BS after He discovers they ate it.

In order to undo the damage that Satan

Satan ... isn't ... in ... that ... story. The NT authors are LYING or using noncanon sources.

Jesus started out sinless.

He sure didn't end that way. He broke all kinds of rules, including his own.

Adam was unfaithful under favorable conditions.

They weren't favorable as God was caught being dishonest about the reason they shouldn't eat the fruit.

So, Jesus, and also Job, proved faithful under adverse conditions proving Satan a liar.

Job was unaware, like A&E, of the REAL reason he was getting punished. Like the story of A&E, had God been moral, the entire plot would've been avoided.

We can all prove Satan to be the liar that he is.

He never lies in any scene he's in, which makes the authors the liars.

Sinless Jesus could balance the Scales of Justice for us.

Jesus sent himself to hell, at least if his pronouncements against calling people "fools" is to be believed.

Jesus has a bad habit of lecturing people and forgetting that he did that stuff too.

Who wrote "god's laws" in the first place? It seems that something OTHER than god must have written them-- it appears god is too weak to change them? Or not allowed?

Or? God didn't write them in the first place...!

Hmmmmmm...

Like the entire plot of Aladdin could've been avoided had the Sultan realized he has the legal authority to change the rules regarding Jasmine's spousal arrangements.

"You must be married to a prince."

Hell, even in Princess and the Frog, they realized that if you marry royalty, that MAKES you royalty too. Aladdin would've become a prince just marrying her, and that took 2 further movies and a tv show.

That's pretty sick all by itself-- the demand of sacrificial animals, I mean.

Especially since it's quite clear God Himself doesn't eat the meat.

And that goes to the heart of my question; why a game that involved the torture and death of his own "son," and the tribulations of his newly created creatures, when a snap of the fingers could have solved everything?

Or He could do what Sun Wukong did when he went to hell: he just used white-out and erased his name from the lists of the dead.

he wanted death to happen first and then negate death. a simple snap of the fingers doesn't involve death's power.

Why is death powerful at all? Oh, and nothing on earth (as far as we know) is immortal, so death gets the last laugh after all?

One does't "murder" an animal. One "murders" people

A. We're animals.
B. "People" can refer to any sentient being.

With the snap of his finger? No. This is no magic show.

The ENTIRE bible is one big badly written magic show, where the magician's powers are plot-convenient and completely forgotten when also plot-convenient. If you don't believe me, ask why Jesus/God can heal anything and yet John the Baptist still remained headless. Ask why a Messiah with magic food-poofing powers can't feed the world. Ask why a God who can control the weather has famines and droughts. Ask why a God who can create a man out of dirt can't make a suitable mate for him out of it. No other living creature had to have clones pulled from ribs to get mates (unless you count amoeba or something). Ask why a God who can see into the hearts of men has to have Hebrews identify themselves with bloody doorposts so He doesn't accidentally kill them off? Is God (yes, He is, in the bible, at least) racist, like "Y'all know they all look alike"?

It's like watching a Superman movie and a villain flies off into the sky and Supes just sits there, like, "Dang, I wish there was something I could do about that."

Consider an illustration:
A clothes iron when connected to a power source heats up. Of course that heat is regulated as the iron is used. When the iron is plugged out, the iron doesn't instantly lose its heat, bu it gradually loses it, until it is cold - dead no use to our clothes.

And that reminds me: Ask why armies of God are defeated by CHARIOTS of iron, not even iron WEAPONS. Can I defeat all of heaven with my Honda Accord Hybrid?

 

[Deeje]

Why Was Jesus Necessary?
​

Got an answer? Good. Can't answer it? Then don't bother tap dancing around it. It doesn't impress.

I recall providing an answer to this...perhaps you missed it in all the detail which in this issue we feel is rather important....you can call it 'tap dancing' if you like, but the details are important if you really want to understand. Can you explain quantum physics in a short sentence and have people who aren't scientists understand what you're talking about?...

Simple...right?

Here is a short explanation as to "Why Jesus was Necessary"....but unless you address the factors that make it so, its just an outline.

Adam paid for his own sin with his own life, but there was no one to pay for Adam's children to be released from the debt he left them as an awful inheritance. (Romans 5:12) Jesus volunteered to be the perfect sinless life to buy back what Adam lost for them. That is the role of a redeemer.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Simply read how many posts, including your own, are unable to stay on topic, which is the WHY? of the subject. Believe it or not, but in this thread I'm not at all interested in what the wages of sin are, or what process Adam started, or because Christ sacrificed his life for us god will bring back the dead.
THEY ARE IRRELEVANT TO MY QUESTION, which is. . . . . .

Why Was Jesus Necessary?
​

Got an answer? Good. Can't answer it? Then don't bother tap dancing around it. It doesn't impress.

.

.

Those are the reasons / answers to why! Grief!

'They can't see with their eyes and get the sense of it' - Acts 28:27.

 

[InChrist]

Who decides what goes against this myth you've constructed? YOU?

Hmmmm.... again, you paint a very weak, inept god who simply fails the question:

"IS IT GODLY".

In the case of your little god? No.

God decides and has revealed Himself through His word.
How can the God who has revealed Himself to be the Creator of heaven and earth, who knows every star by name, sees every sparrow that falls, and the One who gives each breath to all living be...a little god?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And, why did he sacrifice so many animals as he brought the Arc to Jerusalem?

There are all kinds of sacrifices, none of which have to do with intentional sin.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No...

We have a Supreme Court that can reverse anything done by the lower courts.

God remains Supreme.

If He is ALL powerful, to say that He can't give people free will dictates that He wasn't ALL powerful.

So... illogical Captain

False. What part of Free Will Requires Power is beyond you?

What part of "All The Power" is something you don't get?

In order to experience Free Will? There can be NO All The Power being in existence-- that would negate all free will.

This isn't a difficult concept, really, but your analogy doesn't work: the Supreme Court isn't god, and certainly isn't All Powerful. It's not even 1/3 Powerful...

IF your god can renig or reverse Free Will? Then it's not Free at all, is it?

Free Will and All Powerful are mutually exclusive: you cannot have both.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

God decides and has revealed Himself through His word..

Prove it. Hint: You cannot use "his word" as evidence-- that is your CLAIM.

How can the God who has revealed Himself to be the Creator of heaven and earth, who knows every star by name, sees every sparrow that falls, and the One who gives each breath to all living be...a little god?

Easy: Since you describe your god's power from the bible?

The bible's god is a petty little bully-god, who's imagination was limited to Bronze Age Ideas.

Modern humans are far more clever, and creative.

That's how.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

And you say it is "brutal" twisting the Jewish methods when they do it in the most humane way.

What? English, man! I only speak English... and I don't read minds either.

If you are trying to imply something not said? Well I won't even attempt to guess what you are attempting to imply, here.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The post was to demonstrate why it is a complete waste of time to offer an address to you or anyone else with your mindset. You will ridicule and ignore and twist everything that is offered to you. So if you are confident in your position and God is the weak or wicked moron you assume him to be, then I guess it's best to leave you to your POV and allow the wicked moronic God to reveal himself to you in his own time and way..

I have deleted all your judgmental and very abusive post except for the above ... and skimming over it? Well... not very christian of you is the kindest thing I can say about what you wrote... (the part I did not quote... )

But. Let's look at this gem, shall we?

"God to reveal himself to you in his own time and way."

Since you believe your god is All Knowing? And knows exactly what it would take to be convincing to atheists the world over?

But steadfastly and absolutely refuses to make even the tiniest of efforts?

Instead, sends very self-righteous and judgmental folks to "speak for him"?

WHAT MORE PROOF DO YOU NEED, THAT YOUR GOD IS EITHER EVIL OR MYTH?

Which is it?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

And that reminds me: Ask why armies of God are defeated by CHARIOTS of iron, not even iron WEAPONS. Can I defeat all of heaven with my Honda Accord Hybrid?

Yes, your modern automoble ought to work nicely.

Or, one of the Old School bicycles-- so long as the frame is made of steel, don'cha know.

An aluminum frame? Or even a Tesla automobile? (also aluminum/composite) would not work.

Apparently the bible's god works on the same rules as Fae do-- Cold Iron stops'em dead, but aluminum, titanium, composite? No Problem.

God must be ... an Elf Lord!

That would explain a lot-- they are a flighty bunch after all ... full of arrogance and self-importance too.

And obviously, the bible's god is weak to wood as well... that whole cross thing would never have gone over, if they'd used aluminum or stone cross...

 

[Deeje]

I have deleted all your judgmental and very abusive post except for the above ... and skimming over it? Well... not very christian of you is the kindest thing I can say about what you wrote... (the part I did not quote... )

Yes, you deleted the part where I answered all your questions.....I noticed that....and its obvious that you read none of it....I wasn't really expecting you to...it was for people who cared...remember?

And speaking of judgmental and abusive....what do you call your own posts?

But. Let's look at this gem, shall we?

"God to reveal himself to you in his own time and way."

Yes, I thought it was a gem too. So how could you get upset by being entrusted to the care of someone you don't believe in? Would it have helped if I had left you in the hands of the tooth fairy?

Since you believe your god is All Knowing? And knows exactly what it would take to be convincing to atheists the world over?

He doesn't want to convince atheists...sorry. Its up to them to convince themselves.....you all need him...he doesn't need you.
But you knew that...right?

But steadfastly and absolutely refuses to make even the tiniest of efforts?

Instead, sends very self-righteous and judgmental folks to "speak for him"?

Probably just as well.....you might not have survived meeting him face to face.

Besides, he has already put in a monumental effort by creating the planet you live on...the air you breathe...the food you eat....and the water and beans you make your coffee with. I think it might be your turn to make an effort. What do you reckon?

WHAT MORE PROOF DO YOU NEED, THAT YOUR GOD IS EITHER EVIL OR MYTH?

Why? because he won't give YOU enough evidence to convince YOU? Are you throwing a tantrum?

I have all the evidence I need....my conviction is strong. A whole lot of other people feel the same way....so what's missing for you?

Which is it?

Which is what....?

 

[wizanda]

But they're still here?

The Snare was setup by the Lord's coming (Isaiah 8), and was laid like a Bed of Adultery (Isaiah 28/Isaiah 53), which set a Line to catch them in (Isaiah 34)...

This isn't removed until the Tribulation (Revelation 2:22), and then those which remain after this test, will live infinitely in the Age of Godliness.

In my opinion.

 

[Kenny]

God made that rule. He can unmake it. It's not like the physics of the universe will be uprooted if Adam is fired.

He did, through the cross of Jesus.

He never does, though. Adam and Eve are allowed to live and reproduce. Humans post-Flood are descendants of the evil humans pre-Flood. Nothing changes if you keep using the same stock.

Yes, according to the spiritual law of producing of like kind. thus being born-again creates us of His stock.

Choice to do what?

To choose forgiveness and to follow Him who loves you.

David was forgiven because there was no harp player to get rid of him. It's amazing what can happen when you're the one funding the story.

I can't find that interpretation

QUOTE="Kelly of the Phoenix, post: 5771659, member: 58387"]He killed animals ... where? I see He dressed them in leather, but as God, He doesn't have to kill animals to make it.[/QUOTE]
But He did! To seal His promise through blood covenant. There is a reason why Abel sacrificed a lamb. He had faith that the Lamb of God would take away our sins, my sins, your sins, the worlds sins.

 

[Kenny]

There are all kinds of sacrifices, none of which have to do with intentional sin.

There is the sacrifice that has to do with every sin, the one the High-Priest did to place blood on the Mercy Seat in the Holy of Holies even as he laid his hands on the live goat that was led away to a far away place.