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Why would an atheist would support the Christ Redeemer statue?

Kirran

Premium Member
That is a complex thing to explain.

You see, many Brazilians do indeed describe themselves as Christians despite picking up a bit of Umbandist practice, most notably that of offering flowers to Yemanjá at the turn of the year.

Allow me to illustrate with my personal experience. Back in the 1970s I lived in Rio with my relatives. IIRC they were mostly deeply lapsed Catholics with strong Kardecist influence, with the odd LDS thrown in for measure. I don't think any of them was nominally Umbandist or Candombleian, although I can't be sure; those relatives of mine did not like to talk very openly or very often about religion, except for the period of time when a few of them would not shut up about Kardecism despite my begging. (That is a common attitude among Brazilians, by the way. In the urban centers at least it is considered slightly rude to make a point of stating one's religious beliefs without being clearly invited to.)

Even so, at least once at the turn of the year they decided to dress in white and bring me to the beach with them at the turn of the year. They even handed me a few white palm flowers for me to put in the sea water myself.

I don't even know whether any of them believed in the existence of Yemanjá. I suspect most of them do not know either.

You probably know already that in Brazil Yemanja has been melded with Mary mother of Jesus. There is a degree of controvery on how proper it is to consider them one and the same. Some people are bothered by that syncretism, but that rarely if ever leads to anything more than brief harsh words.

These links give a fair idea of how it is. Would you agree that it resembles a Hindu Puja?

Rio celebrates the goddess Yemanja

Offerings to the Sea Goddess Yemanja



Anyway, about the fights... perhaps the best way to explain it would be to present a few typical (or is it stereotypical?) religious profiles, somewhat slanted towards the "Carioca" community.

Most significant in purely demographic terms are the Catholics. If you have no other indication and have to guess, assume that a random Carioca is a Catholic who do not always think too much of religious matters. It is not a given, but quite possible, that he will have a smattering of Kardecist and/or Umbandist beliefs thrown in for flavor. He will usually try not to question other people's beliefs without a clear reason to. He may easily even avoid mentioning or asking whether other people even have religious beliefs in the first place, or he may feel that what truly matters is that people believe in God.

Then there are the Protestants, who come in various "flavors" but all tend to be at least a bit more overt about their belief in Christ. Some of them are discreet, others dress in stereotypical"believer" garb (long skirts or short sleeved social shirts with neckties, mostly). A vocal minority among them are "noisy" and sometimes end up passionate when faced with evidence of non-Christian beliefs (or lack of same). Incidents of attempts to shame or even threaten Umbandist temples have happened, albeit (and fortunately) few and far between.

Kardecists are common countrywide, and many of them see themselves as the natural and logical extension of Christianity, or even of Catholicism specifically. A somewhat rare dissidence follows Roustang (sp?), who is considered by many to be the reincarnation of Muhammad.

Umbandists and Candomble believers are fairly common, but they tend to blend in very discreetly in most situations. It is very rare for them to attempt to make converts without being invited to speak their minds on their beliefs. They usually are very respectful of the diversity of beliefs.

LDS are not uncommon in Brazil, and tend to be easily recognizable at a distance (they often walk in pairs, with white shirts, and name badges of a rigorously defined style). They are almost without exception also very nice people once one learns to negotiate their proselitism, which is hardly ever rude in the first place.

A minority that has become very visible are the Ayahuasca worshippers, not all of which consider themselves worshippers or believers as much as users.

Brazil also has a perhaps surprisingly high number of adepts of "Osho" Rajneesh's doctrine, which is a leading form of the current wave of "new age" beliefs. Also a heartwarming variety of Shinto derivatives, most notably Seicho No Ie. And a variety of Hindu and Buddhist schools and study groups. There is even a Sikh Temple somewhere in São Paulo, which I hope to someday visit. For a while now I have wanted to participate in Langar, helping with the cooking if at all possible.

Thankyou Luis, really. This was actually a great read, I found it very informative as regards my current understanding of religion in Brazil. It definitely builds up on my existing understanding.

I sympathise a great deal with the Mother Goddess religions of Latin America, many of them coming out of the Virgin Mary or, in some cases as you highlight here, from syncretic African traditions. And folk and people's Catholicism generally, actually.

I can definitely see the resemblance to certain Hindu pujas there - I suppose this is a natural expression of elemental worship. Reminds me of something Swami Prema once said to us when some of us were looking miffed at the oncoming rain - 'It's not a problem, these are the elements, and the elements are the personality of God'. People really can relate at a primal level with these basic elemental pujas or services, and I guess that manifests similarly in different cultures.

I have heard of the spread of Protestants in Latin America, and I saw lots of Evangelicals in Guatemala. These are mostly Pentecostals and other such usually-socially-and-theologically-conservative-types?

Ah, Santo Daime. A friend of mine was into Ayahuasca, although I don't know that she was affiliated with that particular movement. I for some reason have some sympathy with it.

All really very interesting, Luis, thankyou!
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I have heard of the spread of Protestants in Latin America, and I saw lots of Evangelicals in Guatemala. These are mostly Pentecostals and other such usually-socially-and-theologically-conservative-types?

They, too, are spread among various profiles themselves. There are indeed many "noisy" Pentecostals, many of which are seen with some reservation and about equal measures of derision and worry by most other Christians, including more traditional Protestants - or, as you and they call themselves, Evangelicals. It is not always easy to even notice that they are Christians, for quite a few are very discreet and laid back.

One reason why is because the Protestants here follow a literal myriad of different churches, many of which are direct dissidences of others. They end up developing their own styles and overall personalities - and since there are so many to choose from, those tend to consolidate in fairly stable shapes as time goes by.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
They, too, are spread among various profiles themselves. There are indeed many "noisy" Pentecostals, many of which are seen with some reservation and about equal measures of derision and worry by most other Christians, including more traditional Protestants - or, as you and they call themselves, Evangelicals. It is not always easy to even notice that they are Christians, for quite a few are very discreet and laid back.

One reason why is because the Protestants here follow a literal myriad of different churches, many of which are direct dissidences of others. They end up developing their own styles and overall personalities - and since there are so many to choose from, those tend to consolidate in fairly stable shapes as time goes by.

You seem to be sometimes and kind of using the word Christian so as to exclude Catholics.

Assemblies of God is big, I think? Looking it up, I see they have 22.5 million members. Another Pentecostal group, the Christian Congregation in Brazil, has 2.8 million.

There are also quite a few million more mainstream Protestants, such as Lutherans, who I suppose are more reasonable.

The Anglican Episcopal Church of Brazil has 120,000 members.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
You seem to be sometimes and kind of using the word Christian so as to exclude Catholics.

Did I? That was definitely not my intent.

I usually do not consider Catholics - or for that matter Adventists and LDS - non-Christians. Some Evangelicals do, but I do not. They are all Christians far as I am concerned.

And in this specific case I definitely meant to include them, although I guess I could have been more explicit. Most Catholics are a bit wary of Pentecostals, who are often perceived as greedy manipulators of the faith of the less fortunate. Many of the more traditional Evangelicals are just as wary of those Pentecostal as the Catholics are.


Assemblies of God is big, I think?
Oh yes, it is. And politically influential as well, mainly because there are so many of them and they often consider their faith a very big deal.

Looking it up, I see they have 22.5 million members. Another Pentecostal group, the Christian Congregation in Brazil, has 2.8 million.

Weird. I don't remember ever hearing about them before, although I probably did, given how many of them there are.

There are also quite a few million more mainstream Protestants, such as Lutherans, who I suppose are more reasonable.

It varies, but generally yes. I am particularly fond of Episcopalians (for most practical purposes, Anglicans) and Methodists.

The Anglican Episcopal Church of Brazil has 120,000 members.

And most of those are superb people, if my experience is any indication.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Do you know that statue in Brazil called Christ the Redeemer? It's a statue of a man, his name was Jesus. He walked on this earth long time ago and ate food like regular people. He preached the religion of Ibrahim.

Why would an atheist would support the Christ Redeemer statue?
I doubt that most atheists "support" the statue, but like me, I suspect they don't care about it very much, either. First of all, it's not a particularly good piece of what might be called "art." But so what? There's a lot of pretty mundane junk out there masquerading as art, and we pass it by pretty much unnoticed.

I personally don't care if you decide to put up a golden bull, or a statue of Baal. But if you make it into a masterpiece -- as Michelangelo did with his David, or the Pieta (both of which I have stood before in absolute awe), I would defend those pieces with my life. Not because they say anything about religious truth, but because they are truly magnificent works of art.

I objected hugely to the Taliban's destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas, but I am not a Buddhist. Yet they were stunning works of antiquity, of art and of historical interest. Only an ignorant slob could conceive of destroying them for not adhering to their own personal beliefs and values. Nor would I destroy anything admired by (or owned by) others, simply because it offended my values. I can live with being offended, and still be okay.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Did I? That was definitely not my intent.

I usually do not consider Catholics - or for that matter Adventists and LDS - non-Christians. Some Evangelicals do, but I do not. They are all Christians far as I am concerned.

And in this specific case I definitely meant to include them, although I guess I could have been more explicit. Most Catholics are a bit wary of Pentecostals, who are often perceived as greedy manipulators of the faith of the less fortunate. Many of the more traditional Evangelicals are just as wary of those Pentecostal as the Catholics are.

It seems there are 500,000 Eastern Orthodox Christians too.

What you say makes sense.

I'll admit to really warming to Latin American "people's Catholicism", it's so much more rooted.

Oh yes, it is. And politically influential as well, mainly because there are so many of them and they often consider their faith a very big deal.

Well, I can't imagine its political influence is something you or I would consider positively.

It varies, but generally yes. I am particularly fond of Episcopalians (for most practical purposes, Anglicans) and Methodists.

And most of those are superb people, if my experience is any indication.

Yeah, Episcopalians aren't really a separate thing, they're all Anglicans. Methodists split off from the Anglicans too. They are groups which are generally pretty reasonable, although there are internal feuds in both groups globally, centred on the USA.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
It seems there are 500,000 Eastern Orthodox Christians too.

I am never quite sure how to tell the Oriental from the Eastern, but sure, there are a fair number of Orthodox Christians here. They tend to have beautiful and quasi-ethnic churches. We Brazilians are blessed with a fair variety of ethnic migrants. They are not many, but they are well visible and well integrated. Not entirely unlike the Buddhist groups.

What you say makes sense.

I'll admit to really warming to Latin American "people's Catholicism", it's so much more rooted.

I think I agree.

Well, I can't imagine its political influence is something you or I would consider positively.

You are probably right. They tend to have less than kind words for people who are explicitly non-Christians. And their stance towards LGBT issues is something that I just can't support.

Yeah, Episcopalians aren't really a separate thing, they're all Anglicans. Methodists split off from the Anglicans too. They are groups which are generally pretty reasonable, although there are internal feuds in both groups globally, centred on the USA.

Oh, I did not know about the origin of the Methodists. Thanks.
 

Ubon

Member
Its nice for believers, even to non christians its a beautiful piece.

Its also good for tourism.

Why not have it, it hurts no one, it brings joy to people and comforts and reminds christians to act christian.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Do you know that statue in Brazil called Christ the Redeemer? It's a statue of a man, his name was Jesus. He walked on this earth long time ago and ate food like regular people. He preached the religion of Ibrahim.

Why would an atheist would support the Christ Redeemer statue?

Because unlike some people, Atheists are decent people who have the civilized adult ability to mind their own freaking business? Funny that.
Oh and "support?" No, they just don't go out of their way to throw a tantrum like a spoilt whiny petulant toddler whenever someone else with a different belief system has something that they cherish.
Perhaps some Religious folk could learn a little something from that.
 
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Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Do you know that statue in Brazil called Christ the Redeemer? It's a statue of a man, his name was Jesus. He walked on this earth long time ago and ate food like regular people. He preached the religion of Ibrahim.

Why would an atheist would support the Christ Redeemer statue?

Easy question to answer. Most atheists strongly believe in freedom of religion.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Or in ones where they do

Neither of those contain religious icons. The OP is attempting to put forward the idea that being an atheist means one must anti-religion completely or can not support art for the sake of art.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
@sovietchild understands less even than that.
I live in a conservative Christian town. There are people with serious money here. We have some beautiful churches and public artworks that I truly cherish. There is tons of religious music I love to listen to.

Some people think by being an atheist we must all be rabid anti-theists

I am not religious in any theological way, much less an idolater. So I appreciate things regardless of what an ancient warlord thought or did.
Tom

I can appreciate a great many thing created by people that are religious. Art is so far removed from the conflict with religions, and between religions, that it is irrelevant.
 

Jedster

Flying through space
Do you know that statue in Brazil called Christ the Redeemer? It's a statue of a man, his name was Jesus. He walked on this earth long time ago and ate food like regular people. He preached the religion of Ibrahim.

Why would an atheist would support the Christ Redeemer statue?

Probably because it's a beautiful piece of work.
I know of several atheists who sing in a church choir because they love singing.
 
Do you know that statue in Brazil called Christ the Redeemer? It's a statue of a man, his name was Jesus. He walked on this earth long time ago and ate food like regular people. He preached the religion of Ibrahim.

Why would an atheist would support the Christ Redeemer statue?

Because they are so depraved they like to idolotrously worship a giant idol and pray for help from the giant god who lives inside the giant Jesus idol.
 
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